Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Hello,

I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.

Imagine that there is no label on the bike. Do you like it still?
These are old trademark names that have been acquired and reassigned to
generic frames, which are then built up. Generic does not mean bad; it just
means it doesn't have a more commercial name. Many bikes of this sort are
sold under big name labels for more money. The bikes don't change; the
labels change. Would you buy one without a label altogether?

One concern, and it has been mentioned before about this seller, is a lower
level of response to both sales inquiries and follow-up customer service.
There is no local service, and I can't imagine service at a distance
(shipping both ways) will be cheap.

If their purchase contract allows return for full refund, you could consider
using that condition to allow yourself to look at the received bike, most
attention of course to the frame, and take a chance.

As to labels, my winter bike came with none but the manufacturer's, Kinesis.
They build zillions of bikes, as did Giant years ago, almost all for big
brands. I paid 46 euros for mine, and it's fine, and the things hung off
the frame are all high quality, also fine.
--
Sandy

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].

Sandy said:

Dans le message denews:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Hello,

Quoted message said:

I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find official retail prices
for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.

Imagine that there is no label on the bike. Do you like it still?
These are old trademark names that have been acquired and reassigned to
generic frames, which are then built up. Generic does not mean bad; it just
means it doesn't have a more commercial name. Many bikes of this sort are
sold under big name labels for more money. The bikes don't change; the
labels change. Would you buy one without a label altogether?

One concern, and it has been mentioned before about this seller, is a lower
level of response to both sales inquiries and follow-up customer service.
There is no local service, and I can't imagine service at a distance
(shipping both ways) will be cheap.

If their purchase contract allows return for full refund, you could consider
using that condition to allow yourself to look at the received bike, most
attention of course to the frame, and take a chance.

As to labels, my winter bike came with none but the manufacturer's, Kinesis.
They build zillions of bikes, as did Giant years ago, almost all for big
brands. I paid 46 euros for mine, and it's fine, and the things hung off
the frame are all high quality, also fine.
--
Sandy

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate that marketing and name
recognition plays a large part en the pricing structures of higher end
road bike manufactures. As far as perceived quality for the bikes in
Bikesdirect, I can only go by the seller's description of the frames,
components, etc...so any reviews or experiences from cyclists who've
actually bought these machines would be more than helpful.

Regards,

JC

Quoted message said:

I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.

You won't find any "official" retail prices for those brands because they're
not distributed beyond bikesdirect.com. (Check out their "Dealer Locater"
which lists no dealers but requests that you email them for their
"recommendation."😉 They can strain credibility with their inflated "retail"
price claims all they want, but the facts are that their bikes are not that
much less expensive than what you'd get locally, and obviously any shot at
getting something taken care of as a warranty is going to be a whole lot
tougher.

Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999. Please, someone, find me a dealer
selling one for We sell them for $679, include fitting services, assembly,
30-day check, and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the
bike (meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have
happened, which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).

So please, ignore their claims about what they think the bike is worth.
Those claims are 100% bogus, in every instance I checked. They may in fact
have some good deals for those who can work on their own bikes, don't need
to be fitted and aren't concerned about warranty issues.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the bike
(meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have happened,
which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).

You don't happen to sell Bianchi, do you?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the bike
(meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have
happened, which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).

You don't happen to sell Bianchi, do you?

I must have fallen asleep at the keyboard when all this "Bianchi" stuff
happened. I know nothing about it... for all I know, Bianchi may have
supplied exceptional customer service, or the opposite.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.

You won't find any "official" retail prices for those brands because they're
not distributed beyond bikesdirect.com. (Check out their "Dealer Locater"
which lists no dealers but requests that you email them for their
"recommendation."😉 They can strain credibility with their inflated "retail"
price claims all they want, but the facts are that their bikes are not that
much less expensive than what you'd get locally, and obviously any shot at
getting something taken care of as a warranty is going to be a whole lot
tougher.

Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999

Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
1000?

Quoted message said:

. Please, someone, find me a dealer
selling one for We sell them for $679, include fitting services, assembly,
30-day check, and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the
bike (meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have
happened, which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).

So please, ignore their claims about what they think the bike is worth.
Those claims are 100% bogus, in every instance I checked. They may in fact
have some good deals for those who can work on their own bikes, don't need
to be fitted and aren't concerned about warranty issues.

"100% bogus" says the 100% interested, biased party in the person of a
Trek dealer. What else can he say?

I'll say what he can't: the Motobecane Record at $499 delivered to the
users door (no sales tax, no shipping, etc.) is a good deal. Buyers
should be prepared to spend $50-75 for a decent set up by a competent
mechanic and then go ride.

Sandy said:

As to labels, my winter bike came with none but the manufacturer's, Kinesis.
They build zillions of bikes, as did Giant years ago, almost all for big
brands.

That's interesting, and relevant. All the bikesdirect.com bikes are
built by Kinesis.

Bikesdirect.com is also the mail-order outlet for Cycle Spectrum, a
chain that operates in Florida, Texas, and Arizona. If you happen to
live in one of those places, 1) you can bring your bikesdirect.com
bike into a Cycle Spectrum store for warranty service, and 2) my
sympathies.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999

Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
1000?

Please look again-
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_record.htm
Bottom of their chart says the following-
Our low price is $499.95 Compare at $800 to $999 for Trek 1000

If you check out TREK's website at
http://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1413000&f=3, you'll see an
MRSP listed of $709.99.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So please, ignore their claims about what they think the bike is worth.
Those claims are 100% bogus, in every instance I checked. They may in
fact
have some good deals for those who can work on their own bikes, don't
need
to be fitted and aren't concerned about warranty issues.

"100% bogus" says the 100% interested, biased party in the person of a
Trek dealer. What else can he say?

Baloney. I've made my points, and I have the facts on my side. You may
choose to ignore them if you wish, but it doesn't take much intelligence to
see what's going on here. Bikesdirect.com dramatically inflates their
claimed value for the bikes by giving bogus retail equivalents. Do you
actually claim otherwise?

Quoted message said:

I'll say what he can't: the Motobecane Record at $499 delivered to the
users door (no sales tax, no shipping, etc.) is a good deal. Buyers
should be prepared to spend $50-75 for a decent set up by a competent
mechanic and then go ride.

Maybe, maybe not (as far as being a good deal). I already pointed out why.

A good bike shop is good not just because they assembled the bike properly
for the customer. If that's all it takes in your neck of the woods, I feel
bad for those in your area. A good bike shop is there to make sure the bike
fits properly, not just initially, but down the road (what looks good on
paper and during an initial test ride might not feel quite right after the
first 30 miler or whatever). A good bike shop performs a 30-day check that
involves more than wiping down the frame. It's an opportunity to make sure
the bike and user are getting along as they should, a chance to talk with
the customer about basic care of their bike and any evidence seen that it
might be a good idea to make some changes. A good bike shop looks forward to
customers bringing in a bike that isn't quite right somehow, because they
want to make sure there's nothing keeping the customer from wanting to ride
that bike, every chance they get. A good bike shop's worst nightmare is a
customer bringing in a bike that has virtually no miles on it after a couple
of years, because something wasn't quite right (could be fit, could be
mechanical, whatever) and the customer didn't realize that the shop would go
out of their way to take care of whatever it was, and it could very well be
something that wouldn't cost anything. And a good bike shop deals with
companies that solidly stand behind their product.

Those are things that can't be done mail order. Not everybody has need for
such services, and for those that don't, saving a few $$$ on a mail-order
bike might make sense.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999

Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
1000?

Please look again-
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_record.htm
Bottom of their chart says the following-
Our low price is $499.95 Compare at $800 to $999 for Trek 1000

If you check out TREK's website at
http://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1413000&f=3, you'll see an
MRSP listed of $709.99.

Hahaha. Way to go Ozark, you're on the ball again.

Hey, I'm curious about your own riding and bike -- any pictures of you
and your machine available online?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

> Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
> compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999
Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
1000?

Please look again-
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_record.htm
Bottom of their chart says the following-
Our low price is $499.95 Compare at $800 to $999 for Trek 1000

If you check out TREK's website at
http://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1413000&f=3, you'll see an
MRSP listed of $709.99.

Hahaha. Way to go Ozark, you're on the ball again.

Hey, I'm curious about your own riding and bike -- any pictures of you
and your machine available online?

Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.

------------------------------
*The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping,
handling or dealer set up.
------------------------------

That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
relation to the real price at a dealership.

As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into [censored] with
people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm
wondering what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold
a poorly sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used
to the pain?"

Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.

Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening
to salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the
direct dealers web page.

If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added"
input and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.

Quoted message said:

Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.

------------------------------
*The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
or dealer set up.
------------------------------

That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
relation to the real price at a dealership.

That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
be what you'll find in most competitive markets.

Quoted message said:

As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into [censored] with
people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
pain?"

It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
better job.

Quoted message said:

Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.

I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.

Quoted message said:

Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
dealers web page.

I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.

Quoted message said:

If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.

And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"MkTm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:yk6li.13734$t05.2594@trndny09...

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

>> Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they
>> claim,
>> compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999
> Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
> comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
> 1000?
Please look again-
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_record.htm
Bottom of their chart says the following-
Our low price is $499.95 Compare at $800 to $999 for Trek 1000

If you check out TREK's website at
http://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1413000&f=3, you'll see
an MRSP listed of $709.99.

Hahaha. Way to go Ozark, you're on the ball again.

Hey, I'm curious about your own riding and bike -- any pictures of you
and your machine available online?

Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.

------------------------------
*The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
or dealer set up.
------------------------------

That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
relation to the real price at a dealership.

As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into [censored] with
people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
pain?"

Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.

Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
dealers web page.

If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.

Quoted message said:

------------------------------
*The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
or dealer set up.
------------------------------

Quoted message said:

That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
relation to the real price at a dealership.

That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
be what you'll find in most competitive markets.

Quoted message said:

As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into [censored] with
people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
pain?"

It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
better job.

I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
work and advice of a quality professional shop.
We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
"Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
get.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.

I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.

Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
pick the right stuff?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
dealers web page.

You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
deserve what they get.

Quoted message said:

I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.

[censored] walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
first conversation and last forever

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.

And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.

agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
along with them doing the service on it.
Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
Trak frame replacement.

Quoted message said:

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
anyway and go through hell doing it.
Bill C

Bill C said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

------------------------------
*The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
or dealer set up.
------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
relation to the real price at a dealership.

Quoted message said:

That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
be what you'll find in most competitive markets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into [censored] with
people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
pain?"

Quoted message said:

It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
better job.

I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
work and advice of a quality professional shop.
We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
"Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
get.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.

Quoted message said:

I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.

Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
pick the right stuff?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
dealers web page.

You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
deserve what they get.

Quoted message said:

I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.

[censored] walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
first conversation and last forever

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.

Quoted message said:

And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.

agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
along with them doing the service on it.
Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
Trak frame replacement.

Quoted message said:

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
anyway and go through hell doing it.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ------------------------------
> *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> or dealer set up.
> ------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> relation to the real price at a dealership.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
be what you'll find in most competitive markets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into [censored] with
> people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> pain?"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
better job.

Quoted message said:

I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
work and advice of a quality professional shop.
We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
"Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
get.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.

Quoted message said:

Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
pick the right stuff?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> dealers web page.

Quoted message said:

You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
deserve what they get.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.

Quoted message said:

[censored] walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
first conversation and last forever

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.

Quoted message said:

agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
along with them doing the service on it.
Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
Trak frame replacement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Quoted message said:

In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
anyway and go through hell doing it.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
moronic answers.
Hope you hang around.
Bill C

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > ------------------------------
> > *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> > or dealer set up.
> > ------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> > relation to the real price at a dealership.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
> wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
> MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
> 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
> be what you'll find in most competitive markets.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into [censored] with
> > people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> > what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> > sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> > pain?"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
> should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
> better job.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
work and advice of a quality professional shop.
We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
"Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
get.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> > some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> > themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
> if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
> that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
> its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
> shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
pick the right stuff?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> > salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> > dealers web page.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
deserve what they get.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
> Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
> written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[censored] walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
first conversation and last forever

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> > and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> > manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> > charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> > bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
along with them doing the service on it.
Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
Trak frame replacement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
anyway and go through hell doing it.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
moronic answers.
Hope you hang around.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
responses.

JC

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
>>> or dealer set up.
>>> ------------------------------
>>> That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
>>> relation to the real price at a dealership.
>> That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
>> wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
>> MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
>> 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
>> be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>>> As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into [censored] with
>>> people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
>>> what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
>>> sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
>>> pain?"
>> It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
>> should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
>> better job.
> I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
> work and advice of a quality professional shop.
> We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
> repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
> "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
> hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
> get.
>>> Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
>>> some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
>>> themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
>> I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
>> if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
>> that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
>> its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
>> shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.
> Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
> dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
> Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
> anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
> pick the right stuff?
>>> Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
>>> salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
>>> dealers web page.
> You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
> test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
> deserve what they get.
>> I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
>> Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
>> written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
> [censored] walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
> first conversation and last forever
>>> If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
>>> and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
>>> manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
>>> charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
>>> bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>> And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
> agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
> what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
> that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
> which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
> their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
> along with them doing the service on it.
> Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
> them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
> Trak frame replacement.
>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
> In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
> to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
> anyway and go through hell doing it.
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
moronic answers.
Hope you hang around.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
responses.

JC

I really have to laugh at some of the responses. I know. You're all
Jesus Christ with hex wrenches. The last thing on any of your sweet
dealership minds is making money.

OK. To some of the particulars. I've covered the Jesus Christ with a
wrench and caliper aspect. Quality, dependability, honesty are often
claimed but rarely demonstrated. I'll give that each of you that claims
halos around your hubs is as you claim to be. But in the real world
there are dealers that are less than sacrosanct. There are people that
at the end of a season, sitting with a dozen of last year's models, will
do what they can to get those bikes out the door.

That brings me to the be all and end all of selling bikes - fit. Whether
it's the local dealer saying that Walmart et al suck because that don't
fit you properly or it's the high end custom frame builder with some one
off high tech contraption that requires multiple sessions for fitting,
fit, finally, is a [censored] shoot.

I've been riding a bike since I was about 5. That's more than 50 years.
I don't know what's a good fit for me. You might say, "That's why you
need me!" but you don't know any better. You don't know that it's my
back that hurts the most with my hips being second, knees third, and so
on. About ten years ago I had a problem with my feet. My foot doctor,
when fitting me for orthotics told me that one of my legs was half an
inch longer than the other. Do you check for that? Do manufacturers have
any method of compensation for that fit problem?

I bought my current bike three years ago when I began to drop (chain
skip) whenever I put any real pressure on the pedals. I was breaking
teeth off the sprockets doing that. When the problem became too much I
brought the bike in to the LBS. The mechanic said he had never seen a
chain stretched that much. He replaced the chain and the rear wheel with
used parts but the work involved would take a week or more, with the
back log of work he had. With that in mind I decided to look at the new
models. My prior bike was a Royce Union. One that I've seen described as
probably made with gas pipe tubing.

I test rode a few models in a price range ($500-$800) I thought
reasonable for my budget and the recreational but heavy exercise level
use I was putting in (about 8-9k miles a year at that point). You know
what you can tell in a short test ride? SFA. I got a compact frame
aluminum bike that was fitted for me based on what I showed the dealer
was my riding style and position. He could see my size and build. He
watched how I rode my old bike and how I rode the new one.

The first time I did my usual 50+ mile ride my wrists were killing me
and my back ached. Every bump was a jab in my lower back. I increased
the size of the tires till I could reproduce something of the softer
ride of the old steel bike with touring like dimensions. From the
original 25c I went to 35c (on 700). My wrists don't ache that much
anymore but my hands get numb while riding and I have to continually
change grip position and shake out my wrists to get feeling back. For
all the high tech [censored] including the gel based wrap, the old foam grips
seemed to do a better job of absorbing road vibration. My back is a
constant aching concern but I had a back problem before so I can't say
that the new bike is the problem. I'm also getting older.

When I'm doing an errand that requires locking and leaving the bike I
take the old one. The difference is night and day. The comfort
improvement is distinctly noticeable. The new bike is faster in terms of
top speed, probably due to the gearing (24 speed vs 12 speed) but
ironically my average speeds dropped with the new bike. I figure it was
just because I had gotten lazy with the far easier indexed shifting
compared to friction. I'd stay in the tougher gear on the old bike and
work harder.

I'm rambling on with other aspects but the key regarding "fit" is that
it's a dealer's biggest selling line and unless the dealer is willing to
fit you with half a dozen different new bikes till you find the best one
after repeated 50+ mile rides, fit isn't the exact science based on
expertise that's claimed. It's more a con then a reality.

Other points. I live in a big city. There are many dealers but that also
means there are many cons to avoid. I originally wanted a Giant. I don't
remember why. I went into the nearest Giant dealership and even though I
was the only person in the shop, I couldn't get the salesperson to come
out to talk to me. Scratch Giant. I'm sure there are areas that don't
have nearby dealerships. Mail order isn't that much different than
dealer purchase from a shop 20 to 50 miles away.

In the real world where Jesus doesn't franchise out disciples to bike
dealerships, having some knowledge of the needs and requirements of
riding and maintaining a bicycle can easily make the discount on mail
order from less than major makers (major makers don't allow it) worth it.

If I were looking to buy a bike, with the bike knowledge level I now
have, mail order is probably the direction I'd go in. The discount seems
more than worth the middle man warranty aspects, fit expertise and Jesus
claims.

Quoted message said:

I'm rambling on with other aspects but the key regarding "fit" is that
it's a dealer's biggest selling line and unless the dealer is willing to
fit you with half a dozen different new bikes till you find the best one
after repeated 50+ mile rides, fit isn't the exact science based on
expertise that's claimed. It's more a con then a reality.

If proper fit was a static, one-time thing, there'd be some relevance to
what you say. But it's not, or at least, it shouldn't be. Getting a proper
fit doesn't require that one rides a ton of different bikes; anybody who
knows what they're doing understands there's going to be some ability to
overlap fit between sizes (longer top tube with shorter stem and
vice-versa). But the real issue is that you have to listen to the customer.
You need to set them up and observe them ride. You need to, if possible, set
them up on a test course that includes a hill or two. But most important is
that you have to realize that what feels comfortable on a relatively-short
test ride might not be what's comfortable on their first 30 miler or century
or whatever, and respond accordingly. You need to not feel threatened by a
customer telling you that something's not quite right, but rather look at it
as an opportunity to help them get the most out of cycling.

And this isn't done out of altruism. I'm as cynical as the next guy, maybe
more so. A shop takes care of their customers in this fashion because they
know it's good for business. Bikes that are tripped over in the garage
aren't beneficial to the bottom line nearly as much as bikes that people
feel like they have a desperate urge to go out and ride, every time they see
it. Those people infect others with the cycling disease. Those people wear
out parts and need to buy new ones. Those people buy shoes & jackets &
shorts & gloves & all manner of other things, because they feel good about
cycling.

Quoted message said:

I really have to laugh at some of the responses. I know. You're all Jesus
Christ with hex wrenches. The last thing on any of your sweet dealership
minds is making money.

If you have an axe to grind about everybody who's in business, fine, but
I'll bet there are more people in the cycling industry who are doing it for
reasons other than money than you'll find in most other businesses. We're
stupid that way. We love getting people out on bikes, and we love even more
making sure they keep on cycling. Maybe not all of us, but quite a few.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"MkTm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9eeli.7764$V35.1475@trndny03...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

On Jul 11, 5:17 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

> On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>> Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping,
>>>> handling
>>>> or dealer set up.
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line.
>>>> No
>>>> relation to the real price at a dealership.
>>> That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge
>>> whatever they
>>> wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than
>>> the
>>> MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the
>>> Trek
>>> 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally
>>> going to
>>> be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>>>> As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into [censored]
>>>> with
>>>> people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm
>>>> wondering
>>>> what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a
>>>> poorly
>>>> sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to
>>>> the
>>>> pain?"
>>> It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that
>>> people
>>> should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who
>>> does a
>>> better job.
>> I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
>> work and advice of a quality professional shop.
>> We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
>> repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
>> "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
>> hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
>> get.
>>>> Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people
>>>> with
>>>> some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
>>>> themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary
>>>> tools.
>>> I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much
>>> support
>>> if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between
>>> companies in
>>> that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to
>>> choose
>>> its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of
>>> things that
>>> shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of
>>> this.
>> Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
>> dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
>> Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
>> anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
>> pick the right stuff?
>>>> Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as
>>>> listening to
>>>> salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the
>>>> direct
>>>> dealers web page.
>> You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
>> test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
>> deserve what they get.
>>> I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such
>>> thoughts.
>>> Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume
>>> that all
>>> written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
>> [censored] walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
>> first conversation and last forever
>>>> If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added"
>>>> input
>>>> and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
>>>> manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
>>>> charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the
>>>> major
>>>> bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>>> And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
>> agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
>> what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
>> that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
>> which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
>> their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
>> along with them doing the service on it.
>> Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
>> them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
>> Trak frame replacement.
>>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>> In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
>> to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
>> anyway and go through hell doing it.
>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
> Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide
> quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
moronic answers.
Hope you hang around.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
responses.

JC

I really have to laugh at some of the responses. I know. You're all Jesus
Christ with hex wrenches. The last thing on any of your sweet dealership
minds is making money.

OK. To some of the particulars. I've covered the Jesus Christ with a
wrench and caliper aspect. Quality, dependability, honesty are often
claimed but rarely demonstrated. I'll give that each of you that claims
halos around your hubs is as you claim to be. But in the real world there
are dealers that are less than sacrosanct. There are people that at the
end of a season, sitting with a dozen of last year's models, will do what
they can to get those bikes out the door.

That brings me to the be all and end all of selling bikes - fit. Whether
it's the local dealer saying that Walmart et al suck because that don't
fit you properly or it's the high end custom frame builder with some one
off high tech contraption that requires multiple sessions for fitting,
fit, finally, is a [censored] shoot.

I've been riding a bike since I was about 5. That's more than 50 years. I
don't know what's a good fit for me. You might say, "That's why you need
me!" but you don't know any better. You don't know that it's my back that
hurts the most with my hips being second, knees third, and so on. About
ten years ago I had a problem with my feet. My foot doctor, when fitting
me for orthotics told me that one of my legs was half an inch longer than
the other. Do you check for that? Do manufacturers have any method of
compensation for that fit problem?

I bought my current bike three years ago when I began to drop (chain skip)
whenever I put any real pressure on the pedals. I was breaking teeth off
the sprockets doing that. When the problem became too much I brought the
bike in to the LBS. The mechanic said he had never seen a chain stretched
that much. He replaced the chain and the rear wheel with used parts but
the work involved would take a week or more, with the back log of work he
had. With that in mind I decided to look at the new models. My prior bike
was a Royce Union. One that I've seen described as probably made with gas
pipe tubing.

I test rode a few models in a price range ($500-$800) I thought reasonable
for my budget and the recreational but heavy exercise level use I was
putting in (about 8-9k miles a year at that point). You know what you can
tell in a short test ride? SFA. I got a compact frame aluminum bike that
was fitted for me based on what I showed the dealer was my riding style
and position. He could see my size and build. He watched how I rode my old
bike and how I rode the new one.

The first time I did my usual 50+ mile ride my wrists were killing me and
my back ached. Every bump was a jab in my lower back. I increased the size
of the tires till I could reproduce something of the softer ride of the
old steel bike with touring like dimensions. From the original 25c I went
to 35c (on 700). My wrists don't ache that much anymore but my hands get
numb while riding and I have to continually change grip position and shake
out my wrists to get feeling back. For all the high tech [censored] including
the gel based wrap, the old foam grips seemed to do a better job of
absorbing road vibration. My back is a constant aching concern but I had a
back problem before so I can't say that the new bike is the problem. I'm
also getting older.

When I'm doing an errand that requires locking and leaving the bike I take
the old one. The difference is night and day. The comfort improvement is
distinctly noticeable. The new bike is faster in terms of top speed,
probably due to the gearing (24 speed vs 12 speed) but ironically my
average speeds dropped with the new bike. I figure it was just because I
had gotten lazy with the far easier indexed shifting compared to friction.
I'd stay in the tougher gear on the old bike and work harder.

I'm rambling on with other aspects but the key regarding "fit" is that
it's a dealer's biggest selling line and unless the dealer is willing to
fit you with half a dozen different new bikes till you find the best one
after repeated 50+ mile rides, fit isn't the exact science based on
expertise that's claimed. It's more a con then a reality.

Other points. I live in a big city. There are many dealers but that also
means there are many cons to avoid. I originally wanted a Giant. I don't
remember why. I went into the nearest Giant dealership and even though I
was the only person in the shop, I couldn't get the salesperson to come
out to talk to me. Scratch Giant. I'm sure there are areas that don't have
nearby dealerships. Mail order isn't that much different than dealer
purchase from a shop 20 to 50 miles away.

In the real world where Jesus doesn't franchise out disciples to bike
dealerships, having some knowledge of the needs and requirements of riding
and maintaining a bicycle can easily make the discount on mail order from
less than major makers (major makers don't allow it) worth it.

If I were looking to buy a bike, with the bike knowledge level I now have,
mail order is probably the direction I'd go in. The discount seems more
than worth the middle man warranty aspects, fit expertise and Jesus
claims.

Motobecane is a only a licensed brand like so many other bike
companies. The name is licensed by Bicycle Discovery which has shops
in LA and San Diego. I am not certain who owns the trademark. Cycle
Europe owns the trademark in all likelyhood.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.

Quoted message said:

You won't find any "official" retail prices for those brands because they're
not distributed beyond bikesdirect.com. (Check out their "Dealer Locater"
which lists no dealers but requests that you email them for their
"recommendation."😉 They can strain credibility with their inflated "retail"
price claims all they want, but the facts are that their bikes are not that
much less expensive than what you'd get locally, and obviously any shot at
getting something taken care of as a warranty is going to be a whole lot
tougher.

Quoted message said:

Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999

Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
1000?

Quoted message said:

. Please, someone, find me a dealer
selling one for We sell them for $679, include fitting services, assembly,
30-day check, and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the
bike (meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have
happened, which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).

Quoted message said:

So please, ignore their claims about what they think the bike is worth.
Those claims are 100% bogus, in every instance I checked. They may in fact
have some good deals for those who can work on their own bikes, don't need
to be fitted and aren't concerned about warranty issues.

"100% bogus" says the 100% interested, biased party in the person of a
Trek dealer. What else can he say?

I'll say what he can't: the Motobecane Record at $499 delivered to the
users door (no sales tax, no shipping, etc.) is a good deal. Buyers
should be prepared to spend $50-75 for a decent set up by a competent
mechanic and then go ride.

Bill C said:

There are NO dumb questions, ...

Check this one:

Why do some people say there are no dumb questions?