GP surgery cycle parking

in message <[email hidden]>, redbirdo

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Sir

Jeremy (') said:

On 11 Jul, 13:47, Paul Boyd <usenet.dont.work@plusnet> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> If people thought that they might not be able to park when they drive
> to the surgery with a cold, they might suddenly become healthier :-)

Quoted message said:

That's a stupid suggestion. Most of the people who visit a surgery are
elderly or young mothers with children. Very few are capable of
cycling, even if they wanted to.

Young mothers with children can cycle perfectly easy.

I am a mother of 2 young children aged 4yrs and 17months. Yes I
personally can (and do) cycle easily - without the kids. However, I
suspect the comment related to travelling as a 'mother with young
children' which I personally find near impossible on a bike. We do own
a tag-along and bike trailer but I don't fancy using them in
combination although my husband was tempted to have a go at
CenterParcs...! The trailer is too small for both kids and I don't
like bike seats so I can't cycle with both kids unless my 4yr old is
on his own bike. Theres no way I'm taking him on a road aged 4 and
cycling with stabilisers (is this overly risk-averse?) and it isn't
sensible to take the trailer on pavements.

http://www.bakfiets.nl/eng/models_cargo_bike_long.php

Seats one adult and up to four small children. There are a lot of other
solutions commonly used in the Netherlands and Denmark but the Bakfiets
style (there are other makers of this style) seems to me particularly
practical. The 8freight style
http://www.velovision.com/mag/issue9/8freight.pdf
can also be used as a child carrier, but I think the bakfiets style is
better for this purpose because the children are in front of you, where
you can see them. Any of these solutions is obviously more suited to less
hilly places, because of weight. In really hilly places some form of
tricycle may be more practical, because it won't wobble if you go really
slowly on hills.

I certainly wouldn't suggest taking a child on the road on a bike with
stabilisers.

See also
http://www.esimex.dk/longjohn.htm
http://zerocouriers.com/workbike/

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those
who are now possible remain possible -- Michael Bakunin

redbirdo said:

Theres no way I'm taking him on a road aged 4 and
cycling with stabilisers (is this overly risk-averse?)

Stabilisers are best left to car free rides, although an afternoon
practice session somewhere quiet would no doubt have him off them
anyway! I take my lad out on the road; he's five (just) and has been off
stabilisers for two years now. We try hard to avoid anything other than
quiet ways but the school run takes in a very busy main A road which we
have to cross and do a couple of hundred metres on before turning off.
He's really confident on the bike but obviously his road sense is
minimal. He wears gloves and a fluorescent vest for our road trips. I
keep him under strict control, I ride just off his right shoulder and I
occasionally have to get VERY assertive with occasional cars that seem
to not GAF... it works well, I talk him through positioning, moving out
for obstructions, observation, life savers etc. and although initially
the "advice" seemed to go way over his head he's now getting it. I think
it's a good idea to introduce kids to traffic as soon as possible (in a
safe way, natch - I wouldn't advocate playing on the M6). I see loads of
kids much older than James that are clue free as regards behaviour on
busy roads, even on foot. I also know some of the other parents at
school think I'm off my head, some maybe even think it's close to child
abuse but I'm sure it will work out in the end. My eldest (8 1/2) also
cycles to school (she went through a similar learning experience to
James) and she rides really well now. Needless to say, neither child
suffers from that other modern form of abuse, childhood obesity.

Tony B

Quoted message said:

I think covered sheffield stands in clear view at the front of the
building will do the job.

Are you quite sure there is no railing lamppost or drainpipe? our few
cycling patients bring the bike in with them sometimes and they're
welcome to ask to put it in the garage if we're very full .
How much is a sheffield stand?
I can just imagine the sharp intake of breath if our senior partner
were asked to fork out for one. Come to think of it, that's me.
Crikey, I could buy a new bike!

TerryJ

Tony B said the following on 13/07/2007 09:04:

Quoted message said:

Stabilisers are best left to car free rides, although an afternoon
practice session somewhere quiet would no doubt have him off them
anyway! I take my lad out on the road; he's five (just) and has been off
stabilisers for two years now.

I saw a young lad of probably around 6 or 7 riding a bike with
stabilisers on a local cycle-path, with accompanying parent. Apart
from, to my mind, being too old for stabilisers, he was riding along
leaning to one side so that one stabiliser was taking some load. That
seemed counter-productive to me - he seemed to have become reliant on
them rather than just using them as a confidence aid.

Quoted message said:

Needless to say, neither child
suffers from that other modern form of abuse, childhood obesity.

Drifting OT a bit, there was a program on TV a while ago about a
particularly overweight child whose mother kept sticking food into him.
The point was brought up that not long before the program was made,
two men has been successfully prosecuted for allowing a dog to become
severely overweight. It seemed that the law has more concern over pets
than children - there was nothing in law that the authorities could do
to protect this child. By the end of the program, I felt quite sorry
for him.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Simon Brooke said:

Seats one adult and up to four small children. There are a lot of other
solutions commonly used in the Netherlands and Denmark but the Bakfiets
style (there are other makers of this style) seems to me particularly
practical. The 8freight style
http://www.velovision.com/mag/issue9/8freight.pdf
can also be used as a child carrier, but I think the bakfiets style is
better for this purpose because the children are in front of you, where
you can see them.

Agreed. Also, the 8 Freight is designed with a "generic" load space of
just a plywood base and alloy frame around it, so it will need work to
take child seats rather than being an up-front design option.

Quoted message said:

Any of these solutions is obviously more suited to less
hilly places, because of weight. In really hilly places some form of
tricycle may be more practical, because it won't wobble if you go really
slowly on hills.

The 8 Freight has about a 30" bottom end and I can get it up a Proper
Hill with 50 Kg in the back. However, it may be fair to assume that not
everyone will be happy doing that... Electric assist would be practical
to consider.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Paul Boyd said:

I saw a young lad of probably around 6 or 7 riding a bike with
stabilisers on a local cycle-path, with accompanying parent. Apart
from, to my mind, being too old for stabilisers, he was riding along
leaning to one side so that one stabiliser was taking some load. That
seemed counter-productive to me - he seemed to have become reliant on
them rather than just using them as a confidence aid.

A 7-year old came to a cycle-training session last week with a brand-new set
of stabilisers and did exactly what you describe. The weight put on to the
plastic wheel by the axle of the stabiliser completely cracked it.

The remnants were were removed and consigned to the bin, and within 30
minutes the young lad could ride a bike properly. :-)

John B

TerryJ said:

Are you quite sure there is no railing lamppost or drainpipe? our few
cycling patients bring the bike in with them sometimes and they're
welcome to ask to put it in the garage if we're very full .
How much is a sheffield stand?
I can just imagine the sharp intake of breath if our senior partner
were asked to fork out for one. Come to think of it, that's me.
Crikey, I could buy a new bike!

Nah, you could buy a BSO. Sheffield stands cost about £50-100, plus
the cost of getting someone to plant them.

Colin McKenzie

--
No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at
the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as
walking.
Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

Simon Brooke said:

I certainly wouldn't suggest taking a child on the road on a bike with
stabilisers.

I wouldn't suggest putting a child on a bike with stabilisers
anywhere. They are an efficient way of delaying the development of the
basic skill of riding a bike.

--
Dave...

John B said the following on 13/07/2007 10:19:

Quoted message said:

A 7-year old came to a cycle-training session last week with a brand-new set
of stabilisers and did exactly what you describe. The weight put on to the
plastic wheel by the axle of the stabiliser completely cracked it.

The remnants were were removed and consigned to the bin, and within 30
minutes the young lad could ride a bike properly. :-)

I think I was that age when I learnt to ride a bike! My grandparents
bought myself and my then 5-year old brother second-hand bikes, and on
their next visit we eagerly toddled off to the back lane. Grandad said
"I'll hold onto the back and you pedal." I duly pedalled, chatting
away, then wondered why I wasn't getting any answers. I looked over my
shoulder, and there was Grandad standing at the end of the lane - he
hadn't held the bike at all! I then promptly fell off.......

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Crikey, I could buy a new bike!

Nah, you could buy a BSO. Sheffield stands cost about £50-100, plus
the cost of getting someone to plant them.

i am surprised to find you are right.I always assumed the fancy
stainless steel ones you usually see at stations were the only ones.

TerryJ

Tony B said:

Stabilisers are best left to car free rides, although an afternoon
practice session somewhere quiet would no doubt have him off them
anyway!

I think you're probably right and I don't like the stabilisers very
much. Hes come off a couple of times because of them in my opinion.
Also theres one sharp bend where he leans right over to stop the bike
tipping and I'm sure this is a bad thing. Having said that I'm still
reticent to get rid of them as I'm concerned he will cycle faster
without them (is this wrong?). Since we're on the pavement I'm not on
my bike but walking with my daughter in a backpack. Its easier to keep
up with him and grab him if necessary than with a buggy. I already
have to run along at times to catch up (daughter not impressed). I
suppose that brings us back to cycling on the road. The problem is
that he is most likely to ride to nursery and back. This is generally
at school dropoff/pickup times. Nursery is opposite and slightly
beyond the local junior school which has over 400 pupils. The road is
*very* scary at these times and I have never seen a single child from
the school cycling on the road although many use the pavements. Even
when by myself on a bike I have been known to get off and walk at
these times. We could just walk, its only 10-15mins, but I am keen for
him to take the opportunity to ride the bike. Sorry to have got off
the thread but I have to admit I am frustrated by how little I am able
to cycle at present and by how much I rely on the car. Friends
(mothers) who also like cycling have taken the view that this is
something they can't do for a few years.

redbirdo said:

Having said that I'm still
reticent to get rid of them as I'm concerned he will cycle faster
without them (is this wrong?). Since we're on the pavement I'm not on
my bike but walking with my daughter in a backpack. Its easier to keep
up with him and grab him if necessary than with a buggy. I already
have to run along at times to catch up (daughter not impressed).

If he tries to get away he'll do that past walking pace with or without
stabilisers (as you note above). I'd say it's a discipline control
thing that he doesn't get away, rather than limiting what he can
actually do.

Quoted message said:

suppose that brings us back to cycling on the road. The problem is
that he is most likely to ride to nursery and back. This is generally
at school dropoff/pickup times. Nursery is opposite and slightly
beyond the local junior school which has over 400 pupils. The road is
*very* scary at these times and I have never seen a single child from
the school cycling on the road although many use the pavements. Even
when by myself on a bike I have been known to get off and walk at
these times.

Fact is that roads aren't really much good for such young kids. I'd
look into a Kiddyback tandem as the most obvious way to get him to
school cycling (where he's doing some) and you can ride solo afterwards.

Quoted message said:

We could just walk, its only 10-15mins, but I am keen for
him to take the opportunity to ride the bike. Sorry to have got off
the thread but I have to admit I am frustrated by how little I am able
to cycle at present and by how much I rely on the car.

I don't think you can really expect a high degree of independence
combined with fast, efficient transport with such a young child. OTOH,
with a kiddyback or proper child transporter you'll get plenty of
exercise and the kids will get fresh air and the knowledge that cars
aren't necessary.
It is a problem with a "standard" bike, but they weren't designed as
multi-occupant vehicles, and the cost of a more specialist bike is still
a lot less than running the car in a lot of cases, even before you get
to more intangible costs like health.

Quoted message said:

(mothers) who also like cycling have taken the view that this is
something they can't do for a few years.

Seeing a few Bakfietsen loaded with kids on my last visit to NL (where
my brother in law transports his kids in a trike) I think it's just a
case of the right tools for the job. The bike you used without a young
family doesn't necessarily qualify.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Simon Brooke said:

http://www.bakfiets.nl/eng/models_cargo_bike_long.php

Seats one adult and up to four small children.

I must admit this looks fantastic. I would love to try one of these.
Why have I not seen these mentioned on sites giving advice on cycling
with kids?

I think I would need an electric assist as suggested by Pete. Now that
IS a great idea - part of the reason I don't fancy carrying both kids
is because it is a bit hilly round here - in the short, steep way as
opposed to the long, rambling way. I can just about manage in granny
gear with my daughter in the trailer. I am not super-fit and am
unlikely to become so as I only have the opportunity to do one or two
15 mile trips a week with the odd short trip to town/gym. I don't have
a commute as I am a stay-at-home-mum.

Unfortunately, it does look rather pricy. I found it on workcycles for
1579 euros. Given that I have a bike that cost £300 and we've already
forked out for a trailer at £80 and tag-along at £80 I suspect I would
struggle to convince my husband to spend £1000 on one of these. It
doesn't help that hes not keen on me cycling on the busy roads round
here on my own, never mind with the kids. To be fair I am a bit
accident prone although I have never (so far) had a bike accident.

Does anyone know of places you can hire these? (preferably with in a
60 mile radius of Banbury but I could always use it as an excuse for a
weekend away!).

Vicki

redbirdo said:

Unfortunately, it does look rather pricy.

It is. But price out how much it will cost you to do all the relevant
driving over the next several years. I suspect it will come to more
than the cost of the relevant bike option without bothering with stuff
like fitness and happiness, even if you don't require a second car for
the job.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

in message <[email hidden]>,

redbirdo (') said:

Tony B said:

Stabilisers are best left to car free rides, although an afternoon
practice session somewhere quiet would no doubt have him off them
anyway!

I think you're probably right and I don't like the stabilisers very
much. Hes come off a couple of times because of them in my opinion.
Also theres one sharp bend where he leans right over to stop the bike
tipping and I'm sure this is a bad thing. Having said that I'm still
reticent to get rid of them as I'm concerned he will cycle faster
without them (is this wrong?).

He certainly will cycle faster without them - but he'll be safer doing so,
in my opinion. You can get nasty falls with stabilisers.

Take him to a grassy park with a gentle slope, and get him to practice
riding down it with the stabilisers off. He shouldn't need to pedal at
first; the gradient should be enough that he can just roll down. Once he's
able to roll down the hill with reasonable confidence, take him to a
flatter area (still on grass) where he has to pedal a bit. He will be
riding by himself within one afternoon.

Quoted message said:

Since we're on the pavement I'm not on
my bike but walking with my daughter in a backpack. Its easier to keep
up with him and grab him if necessary than with a buggy. I already
have to run along at times to catch up (daughter not impressed). I
suppose that brings us back to cycling on the road. The problem is
that he is most likely to ride to nursery and back. This is generally
at school dropoff/pickup times. Nursery is opposite and slightly
beyond the local junior school which has over 400 pupils. The road is
*very* scary at these times and I have never seen a single child from
the school cycling on the road although many use the pavements.

Here, I sympathise with you. The driving behaviour or parents delivering
their children to school - at total disregard to the safety of anyone
else's children - can be appalling.

Quoted message said:

Even
when by myself on a bike I have been known to get off and walk at
these times. We could just walk, its only 10-15mins, but I am keen for
him to take the opportunity to ride the bike. Sorry to have got off
the thread but I have to admit I am frustrated by how little I am able
to cycle at present and by how much I rely on the car. Friends
(mothers) who also like cycling have taken the view that this is
something they can't do for a few years.

I think it's a very reasonable rant, and one I utterly sympathise with.
Could you get together with other parents to form some sort of 'cycle to
school' group where several adults would accompany a group of children,
rather like the various 'walking bus' schemes?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Do not sail on uphill water.
- Bill Lee

Simon Brooke said the following on 14/07/2007 00:44:

Quoted message said:

Here, I sympathise with you. The driving behaviour or parents delivering
their children to school - at total disregard to the safety of anyone
else's children - can be appalling.

The irony of the fact that these very same parents say "It's too
dangerous for little Johnny to walk/cycle" is totally lost on them as
well. I know - I used to live exactly opposite a main school gate, and
if my working hours coincided with school starting hours it was lethal,
with ridiculous and dangerous parking adding to the problems. I had one
or two "discussions" about that at the time!

(Once I'd had to reverse three times because cars were parked on both
sides of the road around a blind bend, and other streams of cars kept
coming the other way. The fourth time, I just refused.....)

Oh, I'm so glad I don't have that any more, and can commute by bike!
Give me wind and rain and fresh air any time :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/