Kraft Sued for Mislabeling (again)

Abe wrote on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:16:27 -0700:

??>> Just my opinion, as I clearly stated. This HFCS thing is
??>> a good example. It's mostly overblown nonsense. It's
??>> sugar, pretty much like any other.
A> Actually, HFCS is metabolized very differently than table
A> sugar, and contributes much more aggressively to the
A> development of insulin syndrome and diabetes than regular
A> table sugar.

There are lots of different sugars and the American Diabetic
Association now, in a big shift, believes that fructose is
contra-indicated. This is a fairly recent shift of opinion but I
worry about a lot of physician's temporary recommendations. For
heart healthiness fat was out, now it's trans-fat or whatever
and a good greasy Mediterranean diet! Are sources of fructose
like honey, tree fruits, berries, melons, and some root
vegetables, such as beets, sweet potatoes, parsnips, and onions
now out for diabetics?

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Quoted message said:

Emma Thackery said:

people who buy such products as simple-minded or ignorant for believing
such labels or "all natural" claims--- that they deserve what they get.
But here we have a product that is aimed primarily at children and they
are not the buyers of the product. And it is those children who may
have to suffer life-long obesity, diabetes, and other medical problems
because their parents, with all good intention, bought them something
they thought was "all natural" and healthy--- a cruel trick on those
children indeed.

OK, so if they substituted pure cane sugar instead of the HFCS they
would have no problem labelling it "all natural" in your opinion, right?
Would that really help the obesity and bad nutition? If you think that,
you are kidding yourself. Too much sugar is too much sugar even if you
personally approve each individual sugar cane or beet. The source of
the sugar is not the problem, it's the amount, no matter the source.

opium is all natural

it might help with obesity ... not sure about bad nutrition

it would definitely make me care less about the headache this thread has
created

Quoted message said:

A> Actually, HFCS is metabolized very differently than table
A> sugar, and contributes much more aggressively to the
A> development of insulin syndrome and diabetes than regular
A> table sugar.

There are lots of different sugars and the American Diabetic
Association now, in a big shift, believes that fructose is
contra-indicated. This is a fairly recent shift of opinion but I
worry about a lot of physician's temporary recommendations. For
heart healthiness fat was out, now it's trans-fat or whatever
and a good greasy Mediterranean diet! Are sources of fructose
like honey, tree fruits, berries, melons, and some root
vegetables, such as beets, sweet potatoes, parsnips, and onions
now out for diabetics?

Any foods with fructose, and simple sugars in general, should be
consumed only in small amounts by diabetics.

JoeSpareBedroom said:

"Cindy Hamilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Emma Thackery said:

Kraft is being sued because the drink Caprisun is/was allegedly labeled
"All Natural" despite that one of the main ingredients is high fructose
corn syrup. Apparently, products containing HFCS are not legally
entitled to carry the "all natural" label according to the complaint.
That would certainly make sense.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This news item really grabbed my attention because I've had so many
problems with gluten in Kraft products that were allegedly wheat free.
Companies that run fast and loose in one area tend to abuse the
consumers' trust in other areas as well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Emma

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the Kraft web site for information on Capri Sun.'
They had some pictures of what looks like the actual packaging.
It's referred to as a "beverage" or a "drink".

Quoted message said:

For Pete's sake, who would think Capri Sun was anything but
[censored] in a bottle? It appears to be the usual water-with-sugar-
and-flavorings. May as well drink Kool-Ade.

Quoted message said:

Cindy Hamilton

Cindy, 54% of the country is terminally stupid. That's a pretty big market
for this kind of stuff

Only 54%? Methinks you are too optimistic.

I guess my thinking is that anyone who buys this "beverage"
doesn't care whether it's natural or radioactive. Why crab
about this when there is so much else to keep the legal
profession busy?

10,000 lawyers on the bottom of the sea, eh?

Cindy Hamilton

In article said:

Emma Thackery said:

people who buy such products as simple-minded or ignorant for believing
such labels or "all natural" claims--- that they deserve what they get.
But here we have a product that is aimed primarily at children and they
are not the buyers of the product. And it is those children who may
have to suffer life-long obesity, diabetes, and other medical problems
because their parents, with all good intention, bought them something
they thought was "all natural" and healthy--- a cruel trick on those
children indeed.

OK, so if they substituted pure cane sugar instead of the HFCS they
would have no problem labelling it "all natural" in your opinion, right?

Strawman. Wrong.

JoeSpareBedroom said:

"Cindy Hamilton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For Pete's sake, who would think Capri Sun was anything but
[censored] in a bottle? It appears to be the usual water-with-sugar-
and-flavorings. May as well drink Kool-Ade.

Cindy Hamilton

Cindy, 54% of the country is terminally stupid. That's a pretty big market
for this kind of stuff.

there's a story (probably apocryphal) about a roadside stand that was
taken to court for selling 'adulterated' soft drinks. business
tripled when they put up a large sign that said 'all our soft drinks
are fully adulterated.'

your pal,
volstead

In article said:

Emma Thackery <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote:

HFCS is a "natural" product.

No it isn't, not in any sense of the word including the way Kraft wanted
consumers to interpret "all natural" which is wholesome Both the
manufacturing process and the metabolization process plainly indicate
otherwise. And that's why Kraft has agreed to remove that statement
from the packages.

Quoted message said:

...At least by the FDA's definition. They aren't misleading anyone.
See, there's the problem. You seem to think HFCS is *obviously* not
a natural product, but I don't see it your way. This is a "fringe"
issue in my opinion.

Your opinion obviously isn't an informed one given your false claim
about HFCS and CapriSun. If you go to the Kraft CapriSun website...

<http://www.kraftfoods.com/caprisun/1_0_Products.html>

.... You will see a number of CapriSun options. They put the "100%
juice" claim right up front at the head of all their (monumentally
confusing) advertising. And yet, very few of the CapriSun drinks are
actually 100% juice. The majority, including regular CapriSun, have
*more* HFCS than any other ingredient except water. That is in addition
to natural sugars present btw.

<http://www.kraftfoods.com/caprisun/1_3_100_Juice.html>

Kraft clearly specializes in package & advertising machinations as a
means of trying to deceive the public into thinking that their products
are much healthier and nutritious than is actually true. This comes
about not only from greed and statutory weakness but from weakened
regulations and damn poor legislative oversight. It will continue until
we elect more ethical legislators.

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And, getting fast food to stop using beef fat was so wonderful because .
. .?

Quoted message said:

I made no claims as to wonderfulness or otherwise; sounds more like your
own hasty conclusion. Try sticking to the issue at hand. I merely

Uh, you are the one who brought the other stuff into the discussion.

I merely cited CSPI's stated met objectives without rendering any
opinion on them whatsoever. You then attempted to call into question
judgments I did not make--- strawman arguments.

Emma

Emma Thackery said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Emma Thackery said:

people who buy such products as simple-minded or ignorant for believing
such labels or "all natural" claims--- that they deserve what they get.
But here we have a product that is aimed primarily at children and they
are not the buyers of the product. And it is those children who may
have to suffer life-long obesity, diabetes, and other medical problems
because their parents, with all good intention, bought them something
they thought was "all natural" and healthy--- a cruel trick on those
children indeed.

OK, so if they substituted pure cane sugar instead of the HFCS they
would have no problem labelling it "all natural" in your opinion, right?

Quoted message said:

Strawman. Wrong.

Ducking the question. It's a yes/no question. Would substituting pure cane
sugar make it "all natural" in your opinion? If not, why not? Are you now
saying that HFCS is not the issue? I thought the HFCS was what
you and CSPI were saying made it not "all natural."

Switching to/from HFCS and cane sugar is a common thing in the soft drink
industry. How is this a strawman? Your list of problems are certainly related
to *sugar* intake more than HFCS in particular and if it's "all natural" or not.
As you like to point out, words have meanings and saying "all natural" equates
to "healthy" is ridiculous. I could make sugar cookies with all the natural
ingredients possible. Doesn't make them health food, but they could most certainly
be labeled as "all natural."

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

"Emma Thackery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Your opinion obviously isn't an informed one given your false claim
about HFCS and CapriSun. If you go to the Kraft CapriSun website...

<http://www.kraftfoods.com/caprisun/1_0_Products.html>

... You will see a number of CapriSun options. They put the "100%
juice" claim right up front...

Well, you must admit that the juice itself is 100% juice, what little juice
there is.

The Center for Science and the Public Interest dropped their suit after
Kraft announced they would pull the "all natural" wording from the
CapriSun packages.

While there have been many rumors that Altria is trying to dump Kraft,
it is important to note that Altria is Phillip Morris--- a company with
a long-standing reputation of deceptive advertising and reprehensible
business practices.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Emma Thackery said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Emma Thackery <[email hidden]> wrote:
> people who buy such products as simple-minded or ignorant for
> believing
> such labels or "all natural" claims--- that they deserve what they
> get.
> But here we have a product that is aimed primarily at children and
> they
> are not the buyers of the product. And it is those children who may
> have to suffer life-long obesity, diabetes, and other medical
> problems
> because their parents, with all good intention, bought them something
> they thought was "all natural" and healthy--- a cruel trick on those
> children indeed.

OK, so if they substituted pure cane sugar instead of the HFCS they
would have no problem labelling it "all natural" in your opinion,
right?

Quoted message said:

Strawman. Wrong.

Ducking the question. It's a yes/no question. Would substituting pure
cane
sugar make it "all natural" in your opinion? If not, why not? Are you
now
saying that HFCS is not the issue? I thought the HFCS was what
you and CSPI were saying made it not "all natural."

Since the FDA does not have clear guidelines for use of the word "natural",
it's absurd to discuss this based on definitions. Rather, you have to
consider WHY any company would use the word prominently on packaging. The
list of reasons is a short one. Just for grins, pretend you're responsible
for designing the Capri Sun package. You have millions of words to choose
from. Why would you choose to use "All Natural" on the box?

Be honest, or it's gonna be along discussion, and that's not necessary.

Emma Thackery said:

The Center for Science and the Public Interest dropped their suit
after Kraft announced they would pull the "all natural" wording from
the CapriSun packages.

While there have been many rumors that Altria is trying to dump Kraft,
it is important to note that Altria is Phillip Morris--- a company
with a long-standing reputation of deceptive advertising and
reprehensible business practices.

Why don't you list all of the companies owned by all the cigarette
conglomerates? That way, together, we can all be indignant at every one of
those horrible companies .

--
"So long, so long, and thanks for all the fish!"
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Emma Thackery said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

... You will see a number of CapriSun options. They put the "100%
juice" claim right up front at the head of all their (monumentally
confusing) advertising. And yet, very few of the CapriSun drinks are
actually 100% juice. The majority, including regular CapriSun, have
*more* HFCS than any other ingredient except water. That is in addition
to natural sugars present btw.

Now, *that,* to me is a fine reason to claim false advertising.
Has nothing to do with "all natural" or not, but why isn't someone
suing them on that claim?

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Emma Thackery said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

... You will see a number of CapriSun options. They put the "100%
juice" claim right up front at the head of all their (monumentally
confusing) advertising. And yet, very few of the CapriSun drinks are
actually 100% juice. The majority, including regular CapriSun, have
*more* HFCS than any other ingredient except water. That is in addition
to natural sugars present btw.

Now, *that,* to me is a fine reason to claim false advertising.
Has nothing to do with "all natural" or not, but why isn't someone
suing them on that claim?

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

How about simply not buying the stuff? What does a lawsuit accomplish?
Protecting morons who can't read and think learning is for "elitists", an
attitude promoted heavily by people of a certain political leaning?

JoeSpareBedroom said:

..... Just for grins,
pretend you're responsible for designing the Capri Sun package. You
have millions of words to choose from. Why would you choose to use
"All Natural" on the box?

Why would you?

Quoted message said:

Be honest, or it's gonna be along discussion, and that's not
necessary.

Why don't you be honest, and provide your own opinion instead of trying to
lay bait? It's become your tiresome and transparent, but typical rhetorical
trademark.

--
"So long, so long, and thanks for all the fish!"
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Dave Bugg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JoeSpareBedroom said:

..... Just for grins,
pretend you're responsible for designing the Capri Sun package. You
have millions of words to choose from. Why would you choose to use
"All Natural" on the box?

Why would you?

Maybe later.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Be honest, or it's gonna be along discussion, and that's not
necessary.

Why don't you be honest, and provide your own opinion instead of trying to
lay bait? It's become your tiresome and transparent, but typical
rhetorical trademark.

It's a great way to shut down self-appointed experts. Ask for an answer, get
none. Game over.

JoeSpareBedroom said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ducking the question. It's a yes/no question. Would substituting pure
cane
sugar make it "all natural" in your opinion? If not, why not? Are you
now
saying that HFCS is not the issue? I thought the HFCS was what
you and CSPI were saying made it not "all natural."

Quoted message said:

Since the FDA does not have clear guidelines for use of the word "natural",
it's absurd to discuss this based on definitions. Rather, you have to
consider WHY any company would use the word prominently on packaging. The
list of reasons is a short one. Just for grins, pretend you're responsible
for designing the Capri Sun package. You have millions of words to choose
from. Why would you choose to use "All Natural" on the box?

Oh, I know full well why they put "All Natural" on the package. Because
fools have convinced themselves that "All Natural" must mean "healthy."
It doesn't mean that, and never has, and encouraging its use in that
manner just removes all precision and a lot of real meaning from the
language.

Quoted message said:

Be honest, or it's gonna be along discussion, and that's not necessary.

If you want to argue that it isn't "all natural" because HFCS is not
all natural, fine. That's a logical argument, even though I disagree
with the premise, but to argue that it's not "all natural" because it's
not good nutrition has no logical basis. A 5 lb. bag of pure cane sugar
would almost certainl qualify in anyones definition of "all natural,"
but substitute a 5 lb. bag of Sucanat if you prefer. Eating that bag
of sugar is certainly not healthy, and using too much of it in *anything*
is not healthy, but that does not make it un-natural.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JoeSpareBedroom said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ducking the question. It's a yes/no question. Would substituting pure
cane
sugar make it "all natural" in your opinion? If not, why not? Are you
now
saying that HFCS is not the issue? I thought the HFCS was what
you and CSPI were saying made it not "all natural."

Quoted message said:

Since the FDA does not have clear guidelines for use of the word
"natural",
it's absurd to discuss this based on definitions. Rather, you have to
consider WHY any company would use the word prominently on packaging. The
list of reasons is a short one. Just for grins, pretend you're
responsible
for designing the Capri Sun package. You have millions of words to choose
from. Why would you choose to use "All Natural" on the box?

Oh, I know full well why they put "All Natural" on the package. Because
fools have convinced themselves that "All Natural" must mean "healthy."
It doesn't mean that, and never has, and encouraging its use in that
manner just removes all precision and a lot of real meaning from the
language.

Quoted message said:

Be honest, or it's gonna be along discussion, and that's not necessary.

If you want to argue that it isn't "all natural" because HFCS is not
all natural, fine. That's a logical argument, even though I disagree
with the premise, but to argue that it's not "all natural" because it's
not good nutrition has no logical basis. A 5 lb. bag of pure cane sugar
would almost certainl qualify in anyones definition of "all natural,"
but substitute a 5 lb. bag of Sucanat if you prefer. Eating that bag
of sugar is certainly not healthy, and using too much of it in *anything*
is not healthy, but that does not make it un-natural.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

I'm not arguing one way or the other about the ingredients. I'm saying it's
ridiculous to go to any extra lengths to protect fools. Anyone who can't
read ingredients and decide what right for them should probably be living in
a group home.

Dave wrote on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:51:26 -0700:

DB> Emma Thackery wrote:
??>> The Center for Science and the Public Interest dropped
??>> their suit after Kraft announced they would pull the "all
??>> natural" wording from the CapriSun packages.
??>>
??>> While there have been many rumors that Altria is trying to
??>> dump Kraft, it is important to note that Altria is Phillip
??>> Morris--- a company with a long-standing reputation of
??>> deceptive advertising and reprehensible business
??>> practices.

DB> Why don't you list all of the companies owned by all the
DB> cigarette conglomerates? That way, together, we can all be
DB> indignant at every one of those horrible companies .

It was interesting that Phillip Morris became Altria....sounds
like " try anything" to me!

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

JoeSpareBedroom said:

I'm not arguing one way or the other about the ingredients. I'm saying it's
ridiculous to go to any extra lengths to protect fools. Anyone who can't
read ingredients and decide what right for them should probably be living in
a group home.

I pretty much agree. Stuff like "All Natural" and "All New" and "Best Ever"
are all just advertising hype. Getting people to read and understand what
the ingredients are would be far more useful than litigating based on
standard label puffery. Outright falsehoods, e.g. "Now with Plutonium",
should certainly be stomped out. This "all natural" thing is just clouding
the real issue.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.