proper mechanics/foot plant?

"I run alone mostly..."

Gee, there's a shock.

Miss Anne Thrope wrote:
<snip>

I think I'm speaking for everyone when I suggest that you get back to chronically masturbating now.

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
| So, I'm not sure what the best mechanics are - but I have a feeling that
the
| way I have been running may be contributing to shin pain. Can I retrain
| myself to run correctly? Is there a place that describes the mechanics of
| good running?
|
| Betsy

There is a video by Danny Dryer called Chi Running.
He is not unique as he sounds but talks about same proper running
mechanics that everybody else preaches. He might be a bit different only
in one area where he prefers incline that other recommend only during
the hill running. Your local library might have it or they can borrow it
through regional inter-library loan for you.
Good luck.

determined said:

I haven't paid enough attention to "how" I run. I run alone mostly, so
haven't had much to compare to. But today, I was in the gym, and another
gal was running on the treadmill next to me. We were going the same speed,
but her footsteps were almost silent, while I seemed to be "slapping" the
treadmill. I guess I was running more flat-footed, while she seemed to be
much lighter on her feet. The only way I could quiet my steps was to land
on my toes, but this felt awkward. I have a strange, ungraceful gait
anyways, and I'm not sure if it's from leg-length discrepancy, the
over-pronation, or what.

So, I'm not sure what the best mechanics are - but I have a feeling that the
way I have been running may be contributing to shin pain. Can I retrain
myself to run correctly? Is there a place that describes the mechanics of
good running?

Betsy

The "slapping" noise does indicate at least wasteed energy. And it may
indicate your gait contributes to your shin problem. I don't think
you really need to run on your toes to avoid the slapping. I tend to
be more of a midfoot striker myself and I normally run fairly quietly
and painlessly. You may be a heel striker and that does put more
stress on the rest of your body.

You might want to review the rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html

look at section 4 for shin splints and stretching.
Ed

I2Run said:

"determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
| So, I'm not sure what the best mechanics are - but I have a feeling that
the
| way I have been running may be contributing to shin pain. Can I retrain
| myself to run correctly? Is there a place that describes the mechanics of
| good running?
|
| Betsy

There is a video by Danny Dryer called Chi Running.

Buy it, then burn it. A good symbolic gesture.

Quoted message said:

He is not unique as he sounds but talks about same proper running
mechanics that everybody else preaches. He might be a bit different only
in one area where he prefers incline that other recommend only during
the hill running. Your local library might have it or they can borrow it
through regional inter-library loan for you.
Good luck.

--
Elflord

determined said:

I haven't paid enough attention to "how" I run. I run alone mostly, so
haven't had much to compare to. But today, I was in the gym, and another
gal was running on the treadmill next to me. We were going the same speed,
but her footsteps were almost silent, while I seemed to be "slapping" the
treadmill.

You may be overstriding. Then again, maybe you just had a loud treadmill.

How many steps do you take per minute ?

As a general principal, when in doubt, take slightly shorter, faster steps
and not longer slower ones.

Quoted message said:

I guess I was running more flat-footed, while she seemed to be
much lighter on her feet. The only way I could quiet my steps was to land
on my toes, but this felt awkward.

You'll injure yourself even faster if you force yourself to do this (especially
if you land on your toes *and* overstride). It puts extra stress on some of
your tendons.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Ed Prochak said:

The "slapping" noise does indicate at least wasteed energy. And it may
indicate your gait contributes to your shin problem. I don't think
you really need to run on your toes to avoid the slapping. I tend to
be more of a midfoot striker myself and I normally run fairly quietly
and painlessly. You may be a heel striker and that does put more
stress on the rest of your body.

The terms "heel striker", "midfoot striker", and "ball striker" are all
misleading and not only have their roots in very basic misunderstandings
of the mechanics of footstrike, the implicit assumptions those terms carry
propagate these flawed notions.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Elflord <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Ed Prochak said:

The "slapping" noise does indicate at least wasteed energy. And
it may indicate your gait contributes to your shin problem. I
don't think you really need to run on your toes to avoid the
slapping. I tend to be more of a midfoot striker myself and I
normally run fairly quietly and painlessly. You may be a heel
striker and that does put more stress on the rest of your body.

The terms "heel striker", "midfoot striker", and "ball striker"
are all misleading and not only have their roots in very basic
misunderstandings of the mechanics of footstrike, the implicit
assumptions those terms carry propagate these flawed notions.

Correct.

determined said:

I haven't paid enough attention to "how" I run. I run alone mostly, so
haven't had much to compare to. But today, I was in the gym, and another
gal was running on the treadmill next to me. We were going the same speed,
but her footsteps were almost silent, while I seemed to be "slapping" the
treadmill. I guess I was running more flat-footed, while she seemed to be
much lighter on her feet. The only way I could quiet my steps was to land
on my toes, but this felt awkward. I have a strange, ungraceful gait
anyways, and I'm not sure if it's from leg-length discrepancy, the
over-pronation, or what.

So, I'm not sure what the best mechanics are - but I have a feeling that the
way I have been running may be contributing to shin pain. Can I retrain
myself to run correctly? Is there a place that describes the mechanics of
good running?

Some shoes just make more noise than others (stiffer = noisier) but if
you're really making a racket then it probably isn't the shoes. And
unless you're really sprinting I don't think you want to land on your
toes; you probably can't do that for long anyway.

You're probably foot-slapping because you're over-striding. Try to land
with your foot under you instead of in front of you. What's your step
cadence (i.e. steps per minute)? Count right arm swings in 15 seconds
then multiply by 8; that's your cadence. If it's significantly slower
than 180 then you can often fix over-striding just by upping your
cadence; a fast cadence doesn't leave you enough time to reach too far
forward.

The treadmill is a good place to practice a faster cadence because the
clock is right in front of you and you don't have to worry about
maintaining pace. If your cadence is very slow now it might feel awkward
at first to use a faster one but it's more efficient and less likely to
cause injury.

Over-striding can definitely lead to shin pain: the impact of each step
is focused on your shin muscles and where they attach to your shin bone
instead of being distributed by the various components of your feet and
legs.

"Elflord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

determined said:

I haven't paid enough attention to "how" I run. I run alone mostly, so
haven't had much to compare to. But today, I was in the gym, and another
gal was running on the treadmill next to me. We were going the same
speed,
but her footsteps were almost silent, while I seemed to be "slapping" the
treadmill.

You may be overstriding. Then again, maybe you just had a loud treadmill.

How many steps do you take per minute ?

About 3 steps per second. Everyone who hears me/sees me run says I take too
many small steps, but when I've tried lengthening my stride, it feels like
I'm pounding. Anyways, from what I've read here, a higher cadence is
better... If my understanding is correct.

Quoted message said:

As a general principal, when in doubt, take slightly shorter, faster steps
and not longer slower ones.

I think I do that, but seem to be landing fairly flat-footed. There is not
much rolling from heel to toe.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess I was running more flat-footed, while she seemed to be
much lighter on her feet. The only way I could quiet my steps was to
land
on my toes, but this felt awkward.

You'll injure yourself even faster if you force yourself to do this
(especially
if you land on your toes *and* overstride). It puts extra stress on some
of
your tendons.

That's what I thought.
Thanks.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"tfactor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

determined said:

I haven't paid enough attention to "how" I run. I run alone mostly, so
haven't had much to compare to. But today, I was in the gym, and another
gal was running on the treadmill next to me. We were going the same
speed, but her footsteps were almost silent, while I seemed to be
"slapping" the treadmill. I guess I was running more flat-footed, while
she seemed to be much lighter on her feet. The only way I could quiet my
steps was to land on my toes, but this felt awkward. I have a strange,
ungraceful gait anyways, and I'm not sure if it's from leg-length
discrepancy, the over-pronation, or what.

So, I'm not sure what the best mechanics are - but I have a feeling that
the way I have been running may be contributing to shin pain. Can I
retrain myself to run correctly? Is there a place that describes the
mechanics of good running?

Some shoes just make more noise than others (stiffer = noisier) but if
you're really making a racket then it probably isn't the shoes. And unless
you're really sprinting I don't think you want to land on your toes; you
probably can't do that for long anyway.

You're probably foot-slapping because you're over-striding. Try to land
with your foot under you instead of in front of you. What's your step
cadence (i.e. steps per minute)? Count right arm swings in 15 seconds then
multiply by 8; that's your cadence. If it's significantly slower than 180
then you can often fix over-striding just by upping your cadence; a fast
cadence doesn't leave you enough time to reach too far forward.

The treadmill is a good place to practice a faster cadence because the
clock is right in front of you and you don't have to worry about
maintaining pace. If your cadence is very slow now it might feel awkward
at first to use a faster one but it's more efficient and less likely to
cause injury.

Over-striding can definitely lead to shin pain: the impact of each step is
focused on your shin muscles and where they attach to your shin bone
instead of being distributed by the various components of your feet and
legs.

Over-striding seems to be the most likely issue then. I do much better at
slower speeds, and it's when I get above 6-7mph that I notice more noise.
How do you run faster then, without over-striding? Is it just a matter of
faster cadence?

"Elflord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
| On 2007-04-13, I2Run <[email hidden]> wrote:
| > "determined" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
| > news:[email hidden]...
| >| So, I'm not sure what the best mechanics are - but I have a feeling
that
| > the
| >| way I have been running may be contributing to shin pain. Can I
retrain
| >| myself to run correctly? Is there a place that describes the mechanics
of
| >| good running?
| >|
| >| Betsy
| >
| > There is a video by Danny Dryer called Chi Running.
|
| Buy it, then burn it. A good symbolic gesture.
|
| --
| Elflord

Why waste money, borrow it from a library, then return the same day! 8-)

Just like anybody else he has good and not so good points.
What was/is the major turn off to you regarding 'Chi' or Danny?

PS: You missed the trade mark 'Cheers,' Mr.Elflord! 8-)

determined said:

"tfactor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

determined said:

I haven't paid enough attention to "how" I run. I run alone mostly, so
haven't had much to compare to. But today, I was in the gym, and another
gal was running on the treadmill next to me. We were going the same
speed, but her footsteps were almost silent, while I seemed to be
"slapping" the treadmill. I guess I was running more flat-footed, while
she seemed to be much lighter on her feet. The only way I could quiet my
steps was to land on my toes, but this felt awkward. I have a strange,
ungraceful gait anyways, and I'm not sure if it's from leg-length
discrepancy, the over-pronation, or what.

So, I'm not sure what the best mechanics are - but I have a feeling that
the way I have been running may be contributing to shin pain. Can I
retrain myself to run correctly? Is there a place that describes the
mechanics of good running?

Some shoes just make more noise than others (stiffer = noisier) but if
you're really making a racket then it probably isn't the shoes. And unless
you're really sprinting I don't think you want to land on your toes; you
probably can't do that for long anyway.

You're probably foot-slapping because you're over-striding. Try to land
with your foot under you instead of in front of you. What's your step
cadence (i.e. steps per minute)? Count right arm swings in 15 seconds then
multiply by 8; that's your cadence. If it's significantly slower than 180
then you can often fix over-striding just by upping your cadence; a fast
cadence doesn't leave you enough time to reach too far forward.

The treadmill is a good place to practice a faster cadence because the
clock is right in front of you and you don't have to worry about
maintaining pace. If your cadence is very slow now it might feel awkward
at first to use a faster one but it's more efficient and less likely to
cause injury.

Over-striding can definitely lead to shin pain: the impact of each step is
focused on your shin muscles and where they attach to your shin bone
instead of being distributed by the various components of your feet and
legs.

Over-striding seems to be the most likely issue then. I do much better at
slower speeds, and it's when I get above 6-7mph that I notice more noise.
How do you run faster then, without over-striding? Is it just a matter of
faster cadence?

Nope, the two variables are cadence and stride length. But you can
increase your stride length without over-striding, though. Don't
lengthen your stride by reaching forward, do it by pushing off with more
power. Your foot will still land in roughly the same place relative to
your center of mass but you'll have covered more ground. That's the
general idea. But you'll need to increase your fitness and your stride's
efficiency to be able to do that. Just running more is what's going to
do the most to improve your fitness and efficiency.

I2Run said:

Why waste money, borrow it from a library, then return the same day! 8-)

(-; What a great idea!

Quoted message said:

Just like anybody else he has good and not so good points.
What was/is the major turn off to you regarding 'Chi' or Danny?

There's at least one general issue I have with all of the form gurus -- there
is absolutely no evidence that interventions to change running form have a net
positive impact. My suspicion is that besides doing strides and related drills,
and being somewhat attentive to avoiding overstriding, most interventions
probably hurt more than they help.

Another issue I have with *most* running form gurus is that they appear to be
completely ignorant about the mechanics of running. In my opinion, using terms
like "heel strike", or worse, "midfoot strike", misleads the reader, and
probably indicates that the author doesn't have a good understanding of the
mechanics of impact. Romanov, and apparently, Dreyer, appear to believe that
gravity can do the work, which is simply incorrect.

Yet another issue I have with westerners abusing Eastern philosophy/religion
in general, and Dreyer in particular, is that they appear to be pushing the
notion that meditation/mindfulness exist to serve essentially competitive goals
(running faster/better).

Quoted message said:

PS: You missed the trade mark 'Cheers,' Mr.Elflord! 8-)

It's not in my sig, I type it out each time. Just got lazy (-;

Cheers,
--
Elflord

determined said:

"tfactor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

determined said:

I haven't paid enough attention to "how" I run. I run alone mostly, so
haven't had much to compare to. But today, I was in the gym, and another
gal was running on the treadmill next to me. We were going the same
speed, but her footsteps were almost silent, while I seemed to be
"slapping" the treadmill. I guess I was running more flat-footed, while
she seemed to be much lighter on her feet. The only way I could quiet my
steps was to land on my toes, but this felt awkward. I have a strange,
ungraceful gait anyways, and I'm not sure if it's from leg-length
discrepancy, the over-pronation, or what.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, I'm not sure what the best mechanics are - but I have a feeling that
the way I have been running may be contributing to shin pain. Can I
retrain myself to run correctly? Is there a place that describes the
mechanics of good running?

Quoted message said:

Some shoes just make more noise than others (stiffer = noisier) but if
you're really making a racket then it probably isn't the shoes. And unless
you're really sprinting I don't think you want to land on your toes; you
probably can't do that for long anyway.

Quoted message said:

You're probably foot-slapping because you're over-striding. Try to land
with your foot under you instead of in front of you. What's your step
cadence (i.e. steps per minute)? Count right arm swings in 15 seconds then
multiply by 8; that's your cadence. If it's significantly slower than 180
then you can often fix over-striding just by upping your cadence; a fast
cadence doesn't leave you enough time to reach too far forward.

Quoted message said:

The treadmill is a good place to practice a faster cadence because the
clock is right in front of you and you don't have to worry about
maintaining pace. If your cadence is very slow now it might feel awkward
at first to use a faster one but it's more efficient and less likely to
cause injury.

Quoted message said:

Over-striding can definitely lead to shin pain: the impact of each step is
focused on your shin muscles and where they attach to your shin bone
instead of being distributed by the various components of your feet and
legs.

Over-striding seems to be the most likely issue then. I do much better at
slower speeds, and it's when I get above 6-7mph that I notice more noise.
How do you run faster then, without over-striding? Is it just a matter of
faster cadence?

You SAY you are going 7MPH and taking 3 steps per second. That comes
out to 1542 steps per mile. That's a 41" stride. Of course you could
simply measure the stride or count it. Nevertheless, a 41" stride
seems very long for you. I don't see how you can improve on that.

Elflord said...

Quoted message said:

Another issue I have with *most* running form gurus is that they
appear to be completely ignorant about the mechanics of running.
In my opinion, using terms like "heel strike", or worse, "midfoot
strike", misleads the reader, and probably indicates that the
author doesn't have a good understanding of the mechanics of
impact.

I am convinced that your foot will "strike" in the way your body
really "wants it" to strike, regardless of how much you wish to
consciously change it. Early on in my running, I tried to change
the various parameters of my natural stride (and strike), but
noticed that all attempts at alterations quickly vanished as soon
as I got a bit tired and automatically reverted to my natural
form. The only thing I do these days is try to consciously
shorten my strides on the uphills -- on the theory that faster
cadence might assist the heart in pumping blood into the legs (I
read that somewhere). I just don't worry about the rest.

"MarkH" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Elflord said...
I am convinced that your foot will "strike" in the way your body
really "wants it" to strike, regardless of how much you wish to
consciously change it. Early on in my running, I tried to change
the various parameters of my natural stride (and strike), but
noticed that all attempts at alterations quickly vanished as soon
as I got a bit tired and automatically reverted to my natural
form. The only thing I do these days is try to consciously
shorten my strides on the uphills -- on the theory that faster
cadence might assist the heart in pumping blood into the legs (I
read that somewhere). I just don't worry about the rest.

The other thing I teach people is to land "softly." Trying to avoid
pounding seems to help everyone I advise.

"Elflord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
| On 2007-04-13, I2Run <[email hidden]> wrote:
| mechanics of impact. Romanov, and apparently, Dreyer, appear to believe
that
| gravity can do the work, which is simply incorrect.
|

I agree with you regarding gravity BS.
I don't think he follows what he preaches either.
For short running segments he leans forward,
but as the duration goes up he go up straight.

One of the important training aspects might be HR monitoring.
As an example, I felt great with my knees all week for the first time
in a few months. This morning I went for a long run of around 16 mi
(the recent longest run was HM 3 wks back), but I held back my pace
all the way through to maintain the lower HR.
I think, it helped. I felt so great that I continued on to 20 mi without
any pain for the first time ever for that kind of distance.

PS: I value your views so much that I wanted to know the reason behind
not liking Dreyer's techniques. 8-)

I2Run said:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

One of the important training aspects might be HR monitoring.
As an example, I felt great with my knees all week for the first time
in a few months. This morning I went for a long run of around 16 mi
(the recent longest run was HM 3 wks back), but I held back my pace
all the way through to maintain the lower HR.
I think, it helped. I felt so great that I continued on to 20 mi without
any pain for the first time ever for that kind of distance.

I didn't realise he was an advocate of HRM training. I don't think it's
strictly necessary, but it is often a good idea, and it's a great way to
provide some perspective on just how slow one can train and still benefit.

My views on beginner training errors are well documented -- I think most
beginner injuries would be prevented if they slowed down their training runs.

Cheers,
--
Elflord