advice needed for a novice please

fezz1976 said:

Dear Group

I am new to running for sport and want to know if i am doing the
right training.

First of all about me, 31 years young, 5ft 8, 12st 8 (bit overweight)
fairly active prior to wanting to run for fitness (football etc).
Recently lost 2 stone through general gym work.

I currently run on the treadmill for 30 minutes 4 times a week but it
is becoming a little boring and i want to move outside.

I have recently been doing two 30 min runs in the gym a week plus one
12 mile bike ride (outside) then a slightly longer run on the road at
the weekend. Does this sound like a sensible plan?

i want to be able to run a 10k in three months time and want to know
the best way to increase my stamina, should i just keep putting the
long run distance up once the current one is easily obtainable? or
should i be doing interval training / speed training to get my pace up
then increase the distance. Also should i keep my 30 minute treadmill
runs at the same time and just increase the speed or keep the speed
the same and increase the distance?

I am unsure what my next step needs to be. By the way my long run is
currently only 4 miles so obviously i need to increase this. But we
all have to start somewhere eh.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Regards Matt

If it's your first 10k, you should not focus on your time. Just go run
it and enjoy it. Then you'll have a time to try to improve upon if you
want to run more of them.

You should get off the treadmill and do most or all of your running
outside. Find a course that has some hills. Increase your distance by
about 10% per week. In other words, add up your mileage for the week
and if it's 20 miles, make it 22 or so the following week and so on.
Make your Sat. or Sun. run a little longer than your weekday runs. You
should be able to comfortably run 6.5 to 7 miles one week before the
race.

fezz1976 said:

Dear Group

I am new to running for sport and want to know if i am doing the
right training.

First of all about me, 31 years young, 5ft 8, 12st 8 (bit overweight)
fairly active prior to wanting to run for fitness (football etc).
Recently lost 2 stone through general gym work.

I currently run on the treadmill for 30 minutes 4 times a week but it
is becoming a little boring and i want to move outside.

I have recently been doing two 30 min runs in the gym a week plus one
12 mile bike ride (outside) then a slightly longer run on the road at
the weekend. Does this sound like a sensible plan?

Sounds like a great plan.

Rule of thumb is, if your goal is to finish the race, it's enough to get your
long run up to around 75% of race distance before race day: so you really are
pretty close. You should have no trouble getting your long training runs to
10k by race day.

How long (in terms of distance) are your 30 minute training runs ?

Cheers,
--
Elflord

John B. said:

You should get off the treadmill and do most or all of your running
outside.

Why ?

Quoted message said:

Find a course that has some hills. Increase your distance by
about 10% per week. In other words, add up your mileage for the week
and if it's 20 miles, make it 22 or so the following week and so on.

That would certainly give him plenty of mileage. If he does this, he will
be up to 60 miles per week when it's time for him to race (in 3 months)

Quoted message said:

Make your Sat. or Sun. run a little longer than your weekday runs. You
should be able to comfortably run 6.5 to 7 miles one week before the
race.

Since his daily average will be about 8 miles, I would think so.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

John B. said:

You should get off the treadmill and do most or all of your running
outside. Find a course that has some hills. Increase your distance by
about 10% per week. In other words, add up your mileage for the week
and if it's 20 miles, make it 22 or so the following week and so on.
Make your Sat. or Sun. run a little longer than your weekday runs. You
should be able to comfortably run 6.5 to 7 miles one week before the
race.

Fezz1976, don't get mislead by the 10% rule as shown above. A 10%
increase should be the maximum increase. I personally suggest increasing
by less than 10% week to week AND less than 25% month to month. A 6%
increase per week in both your 30 minute runs and you longer run will
bring you to double the time (and distance presumeably) in 12 weeks time
leaving 1 week for a quick taper.

All the math aside, check out the rec.running FAQs
(http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html), they are
full of good information.

PD

Elflord said:

John B. said:

You should get off the treadmill and do most or all of your running
outside.

Why ?

Why? Because I assume the race will be run outdoors and not on a
treadmill. Being a novice, the OP probably doesn't understand (and
maybe you don't either) that a mile on a TM is not equal to a mile on
the road. TM running is easier.

"John B." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Elflord said:

John B. said:

You should get off the treadmill and do most or all of your running
outside.

Why ?

Why? Because I assume the race will be run outdoors and not on a
treadmill. Being a novice, the OP probably doesn't understand (and
maybe you don't either) that a mile on a TM is not equal to a mile on
the road. TM running is easier.

Maybe in some ways but in others, tm running is ten times harder. I would
much rather run 10 miles outside than on a tm.

Quoted message said:

John B. said:

Elflord said:

John B. said:

You should get off the treadmill and do most or all of your running
outside.

Why ?

Why? Because I assume the race will be run outdoors and not on a
treadmill.

Yes, but this also seems to implicitly assume that fitness improvements from
treadmill training don't transfer to running outside, but there is considerable
evidence to suggest that this is not a correct assumption.

Quoted message said:

Being a novice, the OP probably doesn't understand (and
maybe you don't either) that a mile on a TM is not equal to a mile on
the road. TM running is easier.

How so ?

Treadmill running has been heavily discussed here, and no-one has made
a solid argument that treadmill running really is substantially easier (they've
certainly tried)

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Donovan said:

no-one has made a solid argument that treadmill running
really is substantially easier (they've certainly tried)

There's easier and then there's easier.

I certainly found it "harder" to run on the street in my earliest
days, having been accustomed the the treadmill.

Sure, energy requirements may not differ significantly. But pacing
oneself seems to be a big burden for novices, and/or a skill which
takes time to develop. Add to this a surface quite unlike the
accustomed belt over shock absorbing deck, the focus required to avoid
uneven sidewalks and dog-walkers and cars, the natural inclination to
speed up when observed, weather, and who knows what other
psychological factors.

I wouldn't be shocked if runners accustomed to road or trail initially
found treadmill running more difficult too, if only because the
familiar tends to seem easier.

Charlie Pendejo said:

Donovan said:

no-one has made a solid argument that treadmill running
really is substantially easier (they've certainly tried)

There's easier and then there's easier.

I certainly found it "harder" to run on the street in my earliest
days, having been accustomed the the treadmill.

Sure, energy requirements may not differ significantly. But pacing
oneself seems to be a big burden for novices, and/or a skill which
takes time to develop. Add to this a surface quite unlike the
accustomed belt over shock absorbing deck, the focus required to avoid
uneven sidewalks and dog-walkers and cars, the natural inclination to
speed up when observed, weather, and who knows what other
psychological factors.

Yeah, I agree that these are all factors, but one can address them by doing
some (but not all or even most) running outside.

I generally find the treadmill to be a bit harder, because I get hot really
quickly, and because there's no airflow, I accumulate a lot of sweat. So I
only do treadmill runs at a very easy pace.

Speedwork on the treadmill is also tricky, mostly I suspect due to the
psychological burden of needing to maintain a perfectly uniform pace (you
may recall the study about uniform pacing Steve Common posted a while back)

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Elflord said:

John B. said:

Elflord said:

On 2007-05-17, John B. <[email hidden]> wrote:

> You should get off the treadmill and do most or all of your running
> outside.

Why ?

Why? Because I assume the race will be run outdoors and not on a
treadmill.

Yes, but this also seems to implicitly assume that fitness improvements
from treadmill training don't transfer to running outside, but there is
considerable evidence to suggest that this is not a correct assumption.

Quoted message said:

Being a novice, the OP probably doesn't understand (and
maybe you don't either) that a mile on a TM is not equal to a mile on
the road. TM running is easier.

How so ?

Treadmill running has been heavily discussed here, and no-one has made
a solid argument that treadmill running really is substantially easier
(they've certainly tried)

They don't have to you can do it your self if you want to "test" it!

Put on your HRM and do a (ex. 70%) run for ½ hour; time your mile time and
do the same on a flat street course. You will find the pace on the streets
slower!! For me we are talking about ~1km/hour slower (for the same pace I
should have 1-1½% inclination on the TM). You have wind, uneven footing,
turns etc to take into consideration on the streets. It all take some of
your energy/time.

But then; just test it your self!!

martin, denmark

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

They don't have to you can do it your self if you want to "test" it!

First, I'd like to point out that even if we completely accept your theory,
it still doesn't hurt to do your mileage on the treadmill, as long as you
adjust either the incline, or your expectations, or whatever.

Quoted message said:

Put on your HRM and do a (ex. 70%) run for ½ hour; time your mile time and
do the same on a flat street course. You will find the pace on the streets
slower!! For me we are talking about ~1km/hour slower (for the same pace I
should have 1-1½% inclination on the TM). You have wind, uneven footing,
turns etc to take into consideration on the streets. It all take some of
your energy/time.

But then; just test it your self!!

The 1-1.5% number is entirely theoretical, and not born out by my actual
experience.

Wind isn't such a bad thing. You have more heat accumulation on the treadmill
partly because it's warm in the gym, and partly because there is no airflow.
This is a substantial factor that is completely ignored by people who push the
1-1.5% number, which only deals with mechanical energy expenditure. So at
moderate paces treadmill running is quite hard.

At interval training paces, it's also very difficult, because it enforces a
perfectly uniform pace. There was an anecdote posted on letsrun, I believe,
about Jim Ryun (3:51 if I recall correctly) trying unsuccesfully to break 4
minutes for a mile on a treadmill.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Elflord said:

Quoted message said:

They don't have to you can do it your self if you want to "test" it!

First, I'd like to point out that even if we completely accept your
theory, it still doesn't hurt to do your mileage on the treadmill, as long
as you adjust either the incline, or your expectations, or whatever.

Or just train on time instead of miles (I do that)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Put on your HRM and do a (ex. 70%) run for ½ hour; time your mile time
and do the same on a flat street course. You will find the pace on the
streets slower!! For me we are talking about ~1km/hour slower (for the
same pace I should have 1-1½% inclination on the TM). You have wind,
uneven footing, turns etc to take into consideration on the streets. It
all take some of your energy/time.

But then; just test it your self!!

The 1-1.5% number is entirely theoretical, and not born out by my actual
experience.

That's my actually experience!! (~1 km/hour or 1-1½ % up to even the score)

Quoted message said:

Wind isn't such a bad thing. You have more heat accumulation on the
treadmill partly because it's warm in the gym, and partly because there is
no airflow. This is a substantial factor that is completely ignored by
people who push the 1-1.5% number, which only deals with mechanical energy
expenditure. So at moderate paces treadmill running is quite hard.

I have a nice fan and I can adjust the speed pointing i my face/chest
(training in the local hospitals center; lots of wonderful nurses!!)

Quoted message said:

At interval training paces, it's also very difficult, because it enforces
a perfectly uniform pace. There was an anecdote posted on letsrun, I
believe, about Jim Ryun (3:51 if I recall correctly) trying unsuccesfully
to break 4 minutes for a mile on a treadmill.

Never tried that (here you must remember that in a pack on the track you
react MUCH different than a "test race" on a TM!!!). To do middle distances
every (middle distance runner) know that there is MUCH more than the pace
to take into consideration... You have to be fit; you have to have a high
lactate tolerance, you have to be used to run FAST; but yo have to
have "THAT" in that competition you can't describe. Not like running ex.
a "normal" 5k (or more!). You know the 5k's (or longer) where you feel like
you can walk on water, fly to the moon etc. To do a GOOD middle distance
you must train to hit that feeling on "the" competition... (I never thought
that was easy :-) )!!!

Last spring I did a 16.15 5K test race on the TM but never got around that
in a race (never hit "the" pack to run in)

happy running where ever you do it ;-)

martin

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

fezz1976 said:

Dear Group

I am new to running for sport and want to know if i am doing the
right training.

First of all about me, 31 years young, 5ft 8, 12st 8 (bit overweight)
fairly active prior to wanting to run for fitness (football etc).
Recently lost 2 stone through general gym work.

I currently run on the treadmill for 30 minutes 4 times a week but it
is becoming a little boring and i want to move outside.

I have recently been doing two 30 min runs in the gym a week plus one
12 mile bike ride (outside) then a slightly longer run on the road at
the weekend. Does this sound like a sensible plan?

i want to be able to run a 10k in three months time and want to know
the best way to increase my stamina, should i just keep putting the
long run distance up once the current one is easily obtainable? or
should i be doing interval training / speed training to get my pace up
then increase the distance. Also should i keep my 30 minute treadmill
runs at the same time and just increase the speed or keep the speed
the same and increase the distance?

Is there a reason why you're running on tm and in gym?
Running outside will help you learn to maintain even effort, be less
boring for long runs (which you mention), and work some muscles more
than tm (unevenness of road, turns, etc, which are lacking on tm), and
likely be more similar to your race. The cardio benefits will probably
transfer outside reasonably well, but you will benefit by learning to
pace outside.

A general rule for newer folks (and frequently experienced folks) is to
build duration (mileage) first before doing "speed" work. But Lydiard
advocates using full aerobic range during base - alternate relatively
flat easy run with rolling hill run at a little higher effort. That
works well for many folks. Add a little bit on a regular basis - maybe
5% every 1-2 wks - and occasionally have some cutback weeks. Keep a log
of your runs and note your recovery after various types of runs.

Quoted message said:

I am unsure what my next step needs to be. By the way my long run is
currently only 4 miles so obviously i need to increase this. But we
all have to start somewhere eh.

You should have lots of time to build your base further and maybe adding
some rolling hill courses to improve ability to maintain constant
effort. Increase your total volume, not just the long run.

Good luck and enjoy.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Elflord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Charlie Pendejo said:

Donovan said:

no-one has made a solid argument that treadmill running
really is substantially easier (they've certainly tried)

There's easier and then there's easier.

I certainly found it "harder" to run on the street in my earliest
days, having been accustomed the the treadmill.

Sure, energy requirements may not differ significantly. But pacing
oneself seems to be a big burden for novices, and/or a skill which
takes time to develop. Add to this a surface quite unlike the
accustomed belt over shock absorbing deck, the focus required to avoid
uneven sidewalks and dog-walkers and cars, the natural inclination to
speed up when observed, weather, and who knows what other
psychological factors.

Yeah, I agree that these are all factors, but one can address them by

doing

Quoted message said:

some (but not all or even most) running outside.

I generally find the treadmill to be a bit harder, because I get hot

really

Quoted message said:

quickly, and because there's no airflow, I accumulate a lot of sweat. So I
only do treadmill runs at a very easy pace.

My experience has been the same. I agree with Charlie. When I start running
outside, the biggest challenge was to pace myself. However, once I'm used to
running on the street, I found it easier. My wife has the same opinion.
First, I suspected the inaccuracy of treadmill's pace indicator, but that
was not the case. I verified the treadmill's display with my Garmin's
reading using a footpod. I use a fan to simulate airflow, but that doesn't
make much difference. I still don't understand why it is harder to run on a
treadmill. I feel the difference is more than psychological.