Front blowout

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly socially irresponsible.

I think you must have hit your head.

Truly, your facility for calm and rational argument never ceases to amaze
me.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly socially irresponsible.

I think you must have hit your head.

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly socially irresponsible.

I think you must have hit your head.

Truly, your facility for calm and rational argument never ceases to amaze
me.

And your ability to say things worthy of a rational argument never ceases to amaze me.

begin On 17 Nov 2003 16:21:31 +0000 (GMT) said:

Chris B. bikerider@-NOSPAM_THANKS-rogers.com said:

Alfred, would you mind naming at least one person who has posted to Usenet who says to "never wear
a helmet" or clearly advocates such a point of view?

I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly socially irresponsible.

Any helmet in any circumstance?

begin On Mon said:

begin On Mon said:

Quoth Sir Sheldon Brown

(snip)

Quoted message said:

I fell off of a horse a couple of weeks ago, in a downhill canter, so the speed was probably
comparable.

(snip)

Quoted message said:

I was fortunate not to break anything except my glasses and one of the zipties that holds Igor
the Eagle to my helmet...but I was really sore all over for quite a while, and I'm still a bit
lame from a pulled groin tendon.

(snip)

So you were wearing your bicycle helmet while on a horse? What are the "never wear a helmet"
people going to say about that?

Would you mind giving an example of a "never wear a helmet" person?

I'll rephrase for the benefit who those who get lost easily (and yet not easily enough,
unfortunately):

Alfred, would you mind naming at least one person who has posted to Usenet who says to "never wear a
helmet" or clearly advocates such a point of view?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Chris B. bikerider@-NOSPAM_THANKS-rogers.com said:

begin On Mon said:

Quoth Sir Sheldon Brown

(snip)

Quoted message said:

I fell off of a horse a couple of weeks ago, in a downhill canter, so the speed was probably
comparable.

(snip)

Quoted message said:

I was fortunate not to break anything except my glasses and one of the zipties that holds Igor
the Eagle to my helmet...but I was really sore all over for quite a while, and I'm still a bit
lame from a pulled groin tendon.

(snip)

So you were wearing your bicycle helmet while on a horse? What are the "never wear a helmet"
people going to say about that?

Would you mind giving an example of a "never wear a helmet" person?

Every post-DUI sidewalk cyclist in my metropolitan area, for a few thousand,

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

In article <[email hidden]>, Prometheus
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I don't doubt there's an art to crashing/falling. Take some Judo lessons, learn falls, and 5 bucks
says you'll decrease your overall chance of serious injury in any sort of accident.

Having taken aikido from some ex-judo people, I'm not sure how much benefit this gives. It's hard
enough to assess that your modest bet is undoubtedly safe.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Word of advice to all: Knees and elbows, though painful to land on, are good, because bones are
better in tension/compression than bending. A force on the joint will cause more of the former and
less of the latter. Besides, pain is weakness leaving the body.

This is even harder to judge. In collisions, tendons and ligaments are stronger than bone. They
can (as happened to me) actually pull the bone apart (in my case the left tibial plateau). If you
can completely avoid breaking bone (either directly through impact or indirectly through massive
forces transmitted via tendon or ligament), surely you're ahead. Damaging one's joints is not a
good long-term strategy, though; my guess is that it's worse than a mid-shaft fracture. Mostly,
though, if we reach this point few of us will have much choice in the matter regardless of our
training (IMHO).

-frank
--

[email hidden] (John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

By the way, is there some kind of "art" to crashing? Things one can

keep in

Quoted message said:

mind and if the worst happens, minimize one's chances of being

seriously

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injured?

Crashes tend to happen so fast that it would be hard to consciously think about what to do. But
certain you can practice falling well -- learning to roll rather than just slam down. For me at
least I used to play a lot of volleyball when I was young, and we practiced moving from a crouch
into a roll. First at low speed onto a mat, and later at higher and higher speeds. In the (few)
high speed crashes I've had on the bike I've ended up rolling each time as a learned reaction.

Also there are things you can do to learn to reduce the chance of crashing. Some are traffic
safety things like in the book _Effective Cycling_. Others are balance skills on the bike. And
others are mental skills to avoid riding into crashes. The latter is a big problem in bike racing
-- where riders focus to much on crashes in front of them and ride into them (I think this is sort
of like "target fixation" in a warplane).

There have been several descriptions of crashes in the recent "Should I wear a helmet" thread in
this group where the poster has said things like "such and such hopped out in front of me and I
hit him." In a lot of those instances, being able to instinctively not look at the obstacle but
instead look for open space could have helped.

I've written a bit about this at jt10000.comstayingup.htmOpen ↗

This sort of stuff won't help you when a car rear-ends you or something really violent happens.
But it can help a lot in avoiding all sorts of little accidents.

JT

Dear John,

What you say seems sensible--muscle tone, practice at rolling, tactics that avoid crashes or at
least lessen them.

Best of all, you make it clear that--

Wham!

Nothing helps in an abrupt, unavoidable, unforseeable crash.

There's no time for maneuvering, tucking, rolling, or any kind of instinct when you're playing a bug
hit by a windshield. There's a fair amount of footage widely available of bikes and motorcycles
crashing that makes this kind of abrupt accident horribly clear.

To take the original poster's incident as an example, no one really knows what happened (the victim
is unlikely to have any memory because long-term memories are almost always absent when you're
knocked unconscious.)

But it's unlikely that he had any warning when something went violently wrong at 30 mph on what
was probably a traditional upright bicycle. He likely hit the ground before he had any chance to
unclip if he was using the kind of pedals popular on rec.bicycles.tech and may have still been
gripping the bars.

It's worth remembering just how awkward a bicycle fall tends to be and how nearly impossible it is
to do much of anything about it--you're tangled up in the pipes. Browse around and see how many
posters have suffered the indignity of falling over on rollers.

To illustrate the difference, imagine running in place on a volleyball court, blindfolded while I
sneak up on you and give you a good shove. Given youth, talent, and training, you stand a good
chance of tucking, rolling, and bouncing up to give me a good clout in return. You're free to move
and much harder to knock over in the first place.

Now imagine pedalling in place on rollers, hunched over the bars, clipped in, and blindfolded on a
paved street. Whichever way I knock you over, you'll have a hard time getting the leg underneath you
free, so you''l tend to hit the asphalt with all the grace of a full trash can toppling over.

Now imagine that you were going 30 mph forward at the same time. You'd start flipping, spinning, and
tumbling wildly as your arms, hips, legs, and head banged into the ground. Unless they slid, the
various portions of your anatomy would brake violently and convert much of your forward motion into
rag-doll gyrations. (This violent flopping is what accounts for so many broken and dislocated arms,
legs, and necks in what somewhat naive posters elsewhere in this thread have likened to a fall no
worse than tipping over sideways.)

So while your answer to Shayne about the art of crashing is sound and sensible advice, it's worth
remembering that the original poster's friend could probably have been a world class gymnast and
stunt man and still ended up the same way. And a headfirst, unpredictable toss into a curb, parked
car, or oncoming traffic would have likely killed him, helmet or not.

Luck--the word that you've been dreading--plays a large role in many accidents. But I still think
that your web site is worth mentioning again:

jt10000.comstayingup.htmOpen ↗

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

"Prometheus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

--On Monday said:

"frkrygowHALTSPAM" <"frkrygowHALTSPAM"@cc.ysu.edu> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler wrote:

>
> The friction of the tire won't directly create more downward

force, but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

> weight and inertia of the bike will--if the rider keeps holding

onto

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> the handlebars.
>

Seems to me that the bike, pivoting upward on its front tire's

contact

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point with the ground, is more likely to toss the rider _upward_

than

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anything.

I didn't know we were talking about what was likely.

By the way, is there some kind of "art" to crashing? Things one can

keep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in mind and if the worst happens, minimize one's chances of being seriously injured? Seems like
a book would have been written on this topic.

This year I had a crash and got lucky. I'd been riding too long and

was

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Quoted message said:

tired, and misjudged the timing of a light in a complicated

intersection

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(not just your normal 4-way--it was a freeway offramp/onramp with

like 6-8

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Quoted message said:

different ways). I went through, and then the light turned red. A

bus

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started off the freeway offramp coming directly in my path, so I

slammed

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on my brakes and went right over the handlebars.

Somehow I managed to do some kind of cartwheel thing with me and the

bike,

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and after the whole thing was said and done I was standing upright

at the

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curb without a scratch on me. Of course, I wasn't going faster than

15mph.

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Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler

I don't doubt there's an art to crashing/falling. Take some Judo

lessons,

Quoted message said:

learn falls, and 5 bucks says you'll decrease your overall chance of serious injury in any sort of
accident.

Well, stunt men do this stuff all the time, but, from my extensive review of low-grade kiddie action
films, it looks like they set-up for the crash and then execute some sort of last second bail-out
and roll. I would like to see what a stunt man could do in an unplanned crash, if anything. With the
usual slip-out crash, I could not imagine any result other than the usual ankle/hip/elbow/shoulder
smash and grind. -- Jay Beattie.

RE/

Quoted message said:

By the way, is there some kind of "art" to crashing? Things one can keep in mind and if the worst
happens, minimize one's chances of being seriously injured? Seems like a book would have been
written on this topic.

Next time a BMX competition is televised in your area, take a look.

Dunno if "art" applies, but those guys jump up smiling from crashes that I'd spend the rest of my
life crippled from.
--
PeteCresswell

RE/

Quoted message said:

Maybe age 59 is a bit old to take up horseback riding...

Yer a butt-kicking 59....
--
PeteCresswell

Shayne Wissler said:

"frkrygowHALTSPAM" <"frkrygowHALTSPAM"@cc.ysu.edu> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that the bike, pivoting upward on its front tire's contact point with the ground, is
more likely to toss the rider _upward_ than anything.

I didn't know we were talking about what was likely.

Some of us were, and others were talking about what's _extremely_ unlikely. But that's Usenet
for you! ;-)

--
Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

broken ribs, and a lot of soreness. (For those fixated on helmets, it had

a

Quoted message said:

slight scratch but did not save my life.)

Welcome back to life, then!

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly socially irresponsible.
I think you must have hit your head.

Truly, your facility for calm and rational argument never ceases to amaze
me.

And your ability to say things worthy of a rational argument never ceases to amaze me.

Weaselling won't do you any good, because you overuse it. Face it; from now on out, whenever you
post nonsense, someone's going to call you on it; and every time you play the "well, you just don't
understand me" card, it's going to look that much dafter.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

Benjamin Lewis said:

David Damerell said:

Chris B. bikerider@-NOSPAM_THANKS-rogers.com said:

Alfred, would you mind naming at least one person who has posted to Usenet who says to "never
wear a helmet" or clearly advocates such a point of view?

I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly socially irresponsible. I think
that's as close as one might get.

I was under the impression that you were referring to wearing helmets while cycling when you
said that.

Yes, I was. I just think it's as close to "never wear a helmet" as anyone ever gets.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

Shayne Wissler said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly socially irresponsible.

Oh my, not *dafter*! I'm in big trouble now!

Certainly as yet you have failed to explain what is wrong with my conclusion here, as you did the
first time I advanced it. Instead you have hidden behind your usual smokescreen of abuse and puffery
about your supposed intelligence.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>>I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly socially irresponsible.

Certainly as yet you have failed to explain what is wrong with my conclusion here, as you did the
first time I advanced it. Instead you have hidden behind your usual smokescreen of abuse and
puffery about your supposed intelligence.

Since you can't possibly be convinced that your assertion is worth arguing with,

That appears not to be the case, given that it was argued with.

Quoted message said:

I can only assume that you're attempting to egg me on in order to have someone to talk to?

Er, you replied to my article first. So we conclude from that...
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler <[email hidden]> wrote:
>"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly socially irresponsible.
>I think you must have hit your head.
Truly, your facility for calm and rational argument never ceases to

amaze

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me.

And your ability to say things worthy of a rational argument never ceases

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

amaze me.

Weaselling won't do you any good, because you overuse it. Face it; from now on out, whenever you
post nonsense, someone's going to call you on it; and every time you play the "well, you just
don't understand me" card, it's going to look that much dafter.

Oh my, not *dafter*! I'm in big trouble now!

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

Quoted message said:

>>>"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly

socially

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>irresponsible.

Oh my, not *dafter*! I'm in big trouble now!

Certainly as yet you have failed to explain what is wrong with my conclusion here, as you did the
first time I advanced it. Instead you have hidden behind your usual smokescreen of abuse and
puffery about your supposed intelligence.

Since you can't possibly be convinced that your assertion is worth arguing with, I can only assume
that you're attempting to egg me on in order to have someone to talk to? You know David, there are
other newsgroups. I'm sure you can find someone to have pseudo-arguments with somewhere.

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayne Wissler said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

>>>>>"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>>>I have said in the past that I think helmet wearing is mildly

socially

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>>irresponsible.
Certainly as yet you have failed to explain what is wrong with my conclusion here, as you did
the first time I advanced it. Instead you

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hidden behind your usual smokescreen of abuse and puffery about your supposed intelligence.

Since you can't possibly be convinced that your assertion is worth

arguing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with,

That appears not to be the case, given that it was argued with.

Non-sequitor. But that's OK--you don't have to follow the rules of logic if you don't want to.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can only assume that you're attempting to egg me on in order to have someone to talk to?

Er, you replied to my article first. So we conclude from that...

That your two absurdities came very closely spaced, and I found it a little interesting. The
question still remains: what possible motive do you have for spewing out such absurdity? It can't
possibly be that you believe these things. I can only conclude that it's some sort of troll.