Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets

email hidden said:

I have an FSA Mega-Exo crank and bottom bracket on my bike.
The bearings are beginning to sound a bit dodgy on riders, especially
after about two hours of riding. I see lots of companies offering
replacement bearings, in steel and ceramic for these outboards style
bottom brackets.

However, it looks like a special tool is required to remove and
replace the cartridges.
Is this tool absolutely necessary? Has anyone pulled the cartridges
and replaced them with, for example, the bearings available from
Enduro?

You need a spanner to get the cups off, either a Park BBT-9 or one
from the FSA website:
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=404

Next you have to carefully pry off the bearing covers, which break
easily. If you do break them, buy up a supply at FSA:
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398

In order to get the cartridges out of the cups, my tools are low tech:
a wooden vice (in order not to mar the cups), an old 27.2 mm dia.
seatpost and a rubber mallet. Once the cups are snug in the vice
(enough to hold it, but not to deform it), place the seatpost into the
cup, give it a firm whack with the mallet, and the cartridge will pop
out (place a waste basket with a towel in it below the vice to catch
it).

I buy cartridge bearings either on e-bay or direct from a company like
Boca:
http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=10412&n=*BRK-002RS

The bearings go back into the cups with another whack of the mallet.

All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
"integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
bb at all, makes a ton of sense.

Doug Taylor said:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:04:48 -0700, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

I have an FSA Mega-Exo crank and bottom bracket on my bike.
The bearings are beginning to sound a bit dodgy on riders, especially
after about two hours of riding. I see lots of companies offering
replacement bearings, in steel and ceramic for these outboards style
bottom brackets.

Quoted message said:

However, it looks like a special tool is required to remove and
replace the cartridges.
Is this tool absolutely necessary? Has anyone pulled the cartridges
and replaced them with, for example, the bearings available from
Enduro?

You need a spanner to get the cups off, either a Park BBT-9 or one
from the FSA website:http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=404

Next you have to carefully pry off the bearing covers, which break
easily. If you do break them, buy up a supply at FSA:http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398

In order to get the cartridges out of the cups, my tools are low tech:
a wooden vice (in order not to mar the cups), an old 27.2 mm dia.
seatpost and a rubber mallet. Once the cups are snug in the vice
(enough to hold it, but not to deform it), place the seatpost into the
cup, give it a firm whack with the mallet, and the cartridge will pop
out (place a waste basket with a towel in it below the vice to catch
it).

I buy cartridge bearings either on e-bay or direct from a company like
Boca:http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=10412&n=*BRK-002RS

The bearings go back into the cups with another whack of the mallet.

All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
"integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
bb at all, makes a ton of sense.

Yep, let's re-design BB shells to compensate for [censored] poor BB design
and worse- than-[censored] poor bearings. Fits right in with other modern
design trends.

Quoted post said:

I have an FSA Mega-Exo crank and bottom bracket on my bike.
The bearings are beginning to sound a bit dodgy on riders, especially
after about two hours of riding. I see lots of companies offering
replacement bearings, in steel and ceramic for these outboards style
bottom brackets.

However, it looks like a special tool is required to remove and
replace the cartridges.
Is this tool absolutely necessary? Has anyone pulled the cartridges
and replaced them with, for example, the bearings available from
Enduro?

I'm pretty comfortable with working on bikes. I used to have the Dura
Ace bottom bracket and thought nothing of pulling it and tearing it
down for an overhaul.

John Rees

Phil Wood makes a toolkit and nice bearings..I don't know of another
tool kit but I'm sure it isn't that tough. FSA bearings are the best
in the world AND don't waste your $ on ceramic..not worth the $
either, IMO.

Doug Taylor said:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:04:48 -0700, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

I have an FSA Mega-Exo crank and bottom bracket on my bike.
The bearings are beginning to sound a bit dodgy on riders, especially
after about two hours of riding. I see lots of companies offering
replacement bearings, in steel and ceramic for these outboards style
bottom brackets.

Quoted message said:

However, it looks like a special tool is required to remove and
replace the cartridges.
Is this tool absolutely necessary? Has anyone pulled the cartridges
and replaced them with, for example, the bearings available from
Enduro?

You need a spanner to get the cups off, either a Park BBT-9 or one
from the FSA website:http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=404

Next you have to carefully pry off the bearing covers, which break
easily. If you do break them, buy up a supply at FSA:http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398

In order to get the cartridges out of the cups, my tools are low tech:
a wooden vice (in order not to mar the cups), an old 27.2 mm dia.
seatpost and a rubber mallet. Once the cups are snug in the vice
(enough to hold it, but not to deform it), place the seatpost into the
cup, give it a firm whack with the mallet, and the cartridge will pop
out (place a waste basket with a towel in it below the vice to catch
it).

I buy cartridge bearings either on e-bay or direct from a company like
Boca:http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=10412&n=*BRK-002RS

The bearings go back into the cups with another whack of the mallet.

All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
"integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
bb at all, makes a ton of sense.

Yep, as long as youi have a outboard bearing type crank...Lots of DA,
Ultegra, Campag, FSA, Truvativ, etc., non outboard bearing cranks
that cannot be installed.

On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<snipped>

- on BB bearings -

Quoted message said:

FSA bearings are the best
in the world

??they are??

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
"integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
bb at all, makes a ton of sense.

Yep, as long as youi have a outboard bearing type crank...Lots of DA,
Ultegra, Campag, FSA, Truvativ, etc., non outboard bearing cranks
that cannot be installed.

That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
you are not limited to a particular brand.

As to servicing outboard bearing bbs: I posted my low tech version
of removing and installing bearing cartridges from and into the cups.

Enduro sells tools which work better than my feeble jury rigging:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/reviews/enduro_bearing_tool

For a mere $112 I can own this tool:
http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/TL8901

Explain to me again why Trek's innovation of eliminating the cups -
indeed, the bottom bracket - the multiple tools, the hassle, the
expense, the weight for god's sake - is a bad idea?

You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
wrench. Period.

Why would I want any frame which has threads and requires a bottom
bracket, a crankset, and a bunch of tools? Not to mention having to
get the threads faced if I want an outboard bearing crank.

Maybe as a bike shop owner you have a vested interest in preventing us
amateurs from wrenching our own bikes?

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<snipped>

- on BB bearings -

Quoted message said:

FSA bearings are the best
in the world

??they are??

Gee, and to think I just tossed my FSA ISIS BB because the bearings
would barely turn and sounded like I was crushing a box of cornflakes
when they did. FSA also does not support any non-outboard BB.

Sure, the Madone will not take a standard bottom bracket, which these
days means a standard ISIS or Octalink bottom bracket -- which is a
flawed design with too small bearings that are doomed to failure.
IMO, you either go with square drive, quarter-inch bearing BB or you
go with outboard (or the Madone outboard/inboard approach). -- Jay
Beattie.

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<snipped>

- on BB bearings -

Quoted message said:

FSA bearings are the best
in the world

??they are??

Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...

Doug Taylor said:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:44:32 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
"integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
bb at all, makes a ton of sense.

Quoted message said:

Yep, as long as youi have a outboard bearing type crank...Lots of DA,
Ultegra, Campag, FSA, Truvativ, etc., non outboard bearing cranks
that cannot be installed.

That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
you are not limited to a particular brand.

Why would that be? No frame only sales??

Quoted message said:

As to servicing outboard bearing bbs: I posted my low tech version
of removing and installing bearing cartridges from and into the cups.

Enduro sells tools which work better than my feeble jury rigging:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/reviews/enduro_beari...

For a mere $112 I can own this tool:http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/TL8901

Explain to me again why Trek's innovation of eliminating the cups -
indeed, the bottom bracket - the multiple tools, the hassle, the
expense, the weight for god's sake - is a bad idea?

Not a fan of anything that takes decsisions away from thew rider.

Quoted message said:

You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
wrench. Period.

Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
wrench.

Quoted message said:

Why would I want any frame which has threads and requires a bottom
bracket, a crankset, and a bunch of tools? Not to mention having to
get the threads faced if I want an outboard bearing crank.

Bunch of tools? Even with a DA 7800 crank there are only 2 needed and
one comes with the crank.

Quoted message said:

Maybe as a bike shop owner you have a vested interest in preventing us
amateurs from wrenching our own bikes?

I don't like it when a customer wants to do something but the
'industry' makes it hard or impossible to do.
Don't sell Treks, don't want to but it will be a shame when somebody
wants that oberframe, already has a Record carbon crank(square taper-
nice crank) or a Campagnolo triple(nice cranks) but can't use it. It
has nothing to do with ease of maintanence and believe ot or not, most
bike owners/riders prefer to not work on their own bikes.

On Jul 25, 7:04 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Jul 24, 7:03 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

<snipped>

Quoted message said:

- on BB bearings -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

FSA bearings are the best
in the world

Quoted message said:

??they are??

Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...

I thought so....IMO, FSA bearings are fit for the LawnBoy, but not a
quality bicycle.

On Jul 25, 7:11 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Doug Taylor said:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:44:32 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> All this b.s. is a good reason why the new Trek Madone frame, with it
> "integrated bottom bracket" and the ability to install cartridges by
> hand directly in the frame, without tools, not to mention cups or any
> bb at all, makes a ton of sense.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yep, as long as youi have a outboard bearing type crank...Lots of DA,
Ultegra, Campag, FSA, Truvativ, etc., non outboard bearing cranks
that cannot be installed.

Quoted message said:

That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
you are not limited to a particular brand.

Why would that be? No frame only sales??

Quoted message said:

As to servicing outboard bearing bbs: I posted my low tech version
of removing and installing bearing cartridges from and into the cups.

Quoted message said:

Enduro sells tools which work better than my feeble jury rigging:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/reviews/enduro_beari...

Quoted message said:

For a mere $112 I can own this tool:http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/TL8901

Quoted message said:

Explain to me again why Trek's innovation of eliminating the cups -
indeed, the bottom bracket - the multiple tools, the hassle, the
expense, the weight for god's sake - is a bad idea?

Not a fan of anything that takes decsisions away from thew rider.

Quoted message said:

You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
wrench. Period.

Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
wrench.

Quoted message said:

Why would I want any frame which has threads and requires a bottom
bracket, a crankset, and a bunch of tools? Not to mention having to
get the threads faced if I want an outboard bearing crank.

Bunch of tools? Even with a DA 7800 crank there are only 2 needed and
one comes with the crank.

Quoted message said:

Maybe as a bike shop owner you have a vested interest in preventing us
amateurs from wrenching our own bikes?

I don't like it when a customer wants to do something but the
'industry' makes it hard or impossible to do.
Don't sell Treks, don't want to but it will be a shame when somebody
wants that oberframe, already has a Record carbon crank(square taper-
nice crank) or a Campagnolo triple(nice cranks) but can't use it. It
has nothing to do with ease of maintanence and believe ot or not, most
bike owners/riders prefer to not work on their own bikes.

The design of the Madone BB shell is intended to ease production line
bicycle assembly, lower parts costs and, as an additional "benefit',
lower the weight. Anyone who thinks Trek was concerned about ease of
BB service is being *incredibly* naive.

And, of course, these WunderBikes will be absolutely useless in the
future if the current 'pipe style' BB designs are replaced with
something !!!NEW!!!

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

That's a non sequitur. If you have a new Madone, or a new Madone
frame, you have a new crank, which will be outboard bearing. And,
you are not limited to a particular brand.

Why would that be? No frame only sales??

What part of "new Madone, or a new Madone frame" blew past you? Either
way, you get anew outboard bearing crank.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You install the bearings by hand and the crank with one freaking allen
wrench. Period.

Depends on the crank..many(most) use more than one freaking allen
wrench.

Let's see. Mine also has a fixing screw, but it stays in place. Some
have pinch bolts. My point was no threads, no cups, no tool needed
for the cups, no labor to install or remove.

Ozark Bicycle said:

The design of the Madone BB shell is intended to ease production line
bicycle assembly, lower parts costs and, as an additional "benefit',
lower the weight. Anyone who thinks Trek was concerned about ease of
BB service is being *incredibly* naive.

I'm incredibly naive. I read their literature:

http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more

I'd rather be incredibly naive than a wool jersey wearing retrogrouch.

I agree with Lennard Zinn and will make you a bet: in 3 years, every
manufacturer will copy this integrated bb design, the same way they
did integrated headsets. Loser buys the winner a frame (I can get the
one you want at a garage sale).

Doug Taylor said:

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 06:25:47 -0700, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

The design of the Madone BB shell is intended to ease production line
bicycle assembly, lower parts costs and, as an additional "benefit',
lower the weight. Anyone who thinks Trek was concerned about ease of
BB service is being *incredibly* naive.

I'm incredibly naive.

Yep.

Quoted message said:

I read their literature:

http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more

What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
rather than later." ???

Quoted message said:

I'd rather be incredibly naive than a wool jersey wearing retrogrouch.

I agree with Lennard Zinn and will make you a bet: in 3 years, every
manufacturer will copy this integrated bb design, the same way they
did integrated headsets.

And integrated headsets were widely adopted as a benefit to the
consumer, right?

Wanna buy a bridge? You'll earn the purchase price back in no time by
charging tolls! Cash only. 'tho...... and no receipt, but we'll send
the title in the mail at a later date.

Quoted message said:

Loser buys the winner a frame (I can get the
one you want at a garage sale).

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Jul 25, 7:04 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Jul 24, 7:03 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<snipped>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- on BB bearings -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> FSA bearings are the best
> in the world

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

??they are??

Quoted message said:

Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...

I thought so....IMO, FSA bearings are fit for the LawnBoy, but not a
quality bicycle.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sort of off topic. But does FSA have their name/decal stamped/glued
to anything of good quality from their southeast asian sources?

Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more

What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
rather than later." ???

Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
standard bb.

And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more

What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
rather than later." ???

Doug Taylor said:

Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
standard bb.
And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?

Perhaps he's a former Lambert-Viscount-Trusty owner ( New! Improved
press-in BB! New lighter thinwall tube construction! New cast aluminum
fork!)
Perhaps he had a 9/16" stem Klein bike (new! improved!)
Maybe an EVO quill fork? (New! Improved! More rigid!)
Maybe a version I Shimano spline BB?(Sir, that noise your tandem BB can
be rectified for about $350)

Many riders are reasonably cynical about 'improvements' from FFS-PPS to
press-in BB systems.

Surely, as many riders will pay extra for new untested products as avoid
them and so progress marches, Schumpeter-like, onward. Write back in ten
years to see how these Treks work out. If no one ever danced outside
accepted proven designs we'd never get anywhere.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

>http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
rather than later." ???

Doug Taylor said:

Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
standard bb.
And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?

Perhaps he's a former Lambert-Viscount-Trusty owner ( New! Improved
press-in BB! New lighter thinwall tube construction! New cast aluminum
fork!)
Perhaps he had a 9/16" stem Klein bike (new! improved!)
Maybe an EVO quill fork? (New! Improved! More rigid!)
Maybe a version I Shimano spline BB?(Sir, that noise your tandem BB can
be rectified for about $350)

Many riders are reasonably cynical about 'improvements' from FFS-PPS to
press-in BB systems.

Surely, as many riders will pay extra for new untested products as avoid
them and so progress marches, Schumpeter-like, onward. Write back in ten
years to see how these Treks work out. If no one ever danced outside
accepted proven designs we'd never get anywhere.

I don't think it is so dire for two reasons: (1) the Madone relies on
the dominant technology -- the two piece crank, and (2) the frame uses
common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
bearings [censored] out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.

Trek has a lifetime warranty on its frame and it will be around in to
the foreseeable future. If I were going to take a chance, it would be
on a Trek. But the Madone does not appear to be all that chancy since
it uses pretty common stuff. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
> What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
> our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
> useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
> means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
> rather than later." ???

Quoted message said:

Doug Taylor said:

Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
standard bb.
And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?

Quoted message said:

Perhaps he's a former Lambert-Viscount-Trusty owner ( New! Improved
press-in BB! New lighter thinwall tube construction! New cast aluminum
fork!)
Perhaps he had a 9/16" stem Klein bike (new! improved!)
Maybe an EVO quill fork? (New! Improved! More rigid!)
Maybe a version I Shimano spline BB?(Sir, that noise your tandem BB can
be rectified for about $350)

Quoted message said:

Many riders are reasonably cynical about 'improvements' from FFS-PPS to
press-in BB systems.

Quoted message said:

Surely, as many riders will pay extra for new untested products as avoid
them and so progress marches, Schumpeter-like, onward. Write back in ten
years to see how these Treks work out. If no one ever danced outside
accepted proven designs we'd never get anywhere.

I don't think it is so dire for two reasons: (1) the Madone relies on
the dominant technology -- the two piece crank

Hot too many years ago, either Octalink or ISIS would have appeared to
be "the dominant technology", right? What was that you were recently
told by FSA regarding ISIS BBs?

At least both Octalink and ISIS used standard BB dimensions. Imagine
if someone had designed a frame to only accept Octalink or ISIS
spindles.....what would that frame be worth at this time?

Quoted message said:

, and (2) the frame uses
common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
bearings [censored] out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.

But, someone has to be in the business of making the now current pipe
style BB cranks. If not, the frame is useless.

Quoted message said:

Trek has a lifetime warranty on its frame and it will be around in to
the foreseeable future. If I were going to take a chance, it would be
on a Trek. But the Madone does not appear to be all that chancy since
it uses pretty common stuff. -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -