Re: Stroke Technique Website

MW Smith said:

On Jul 12, 12:55 pm, _ <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Which makes the further point that most of the fastest swimmers will be
extreme in some physical characteristics; and as such extremes cannot, in
many cases, occur concurrently, the strokes utilised by such swimmers may
well be extreme as well. Aping someone who is faster than you merely
because they are faster is the mark of a beginner, who cannot

Nobody suggested aping someone who is faster. The suggestion was that
I would get a lot out of seeing my stroke in a side by side comparison
with a swimmer who is swimming with a perfect stroke. There is much
information in differences.

Quoted message said:

a) see the differences between stroke styles; and or

...which is pretty much useless in this con text.

Quoted message said:

b) understand which of those differences occur in response to the
differences in the various physical characteristics that that swimmer
possesses.

...but we aren't talking about aping someone who swims with a strange
stroke. We are talking about seeing the difference between MY stroke
and a perfect one.

Quoted message said:

There is no "perfect stroke".

I've seen many swimmers swimming perfectly. I'm sorry you haven't, but
your loss doesn't invalidate my point.

I taught swimming classes to "raw beginners" here at the Univ. at
Buffalo for 20 years, and every time we used video in class, to let
the students visualize what they were doing, their technique
improvement was immediate. Whether it's side by side or just video of
the individual, when you can see what "you" are doing, the quicker
your technique will improve. So before you look at others, you need
to see yourself...!

Budd said:

MW Smith said:

On Jul 12, 12:55 pm, _ <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Which makes the further point that most of the fastest swimmers will be
extreme in some physical characteristics; and as such extremes cannot, in
many cases, occur concurrently, the strokes utilised by such swimmers may
well be extreme as well. Aping someone who is faster than you merely
because they are faster is the mark of a beginner, who cannot

Nobody suggested aping someone who is faster. The suggestion was that
I would get a lot out of seeing my stroke in a side by side comparison
with a swimmer who is swimming with a perfect stroke. There is much
information in differences.

Quoted message said:

a) see the differences between stroke styles; and or

...which is pretty much useless in this con text.

Quoted message said:

b) understand which of those differences occur in response to the
differences in the various physical characteristics that that swimmer
possesses.

...but we aren't talking about aping someone who swims with a strange
stroke. We are talking about seeing the difference between MY stroke
and a perfect one.

Quoted message said:

There is no "perfect stroke".

I've seen many swimmers swimming perfectly. I'm sorry you haven't, but
your loss doesn't invalidate my point.

I taught swimming classes to "raw beginners" here at the Univ. at
Buffalo for 20 years, and every time we used video in class, to let
the students visualize what they were doing, their technique
improvement was immediate. Whether it's side by side or just video of
the individual, when you can see what "you" are doing, the quicker
your technique will improve. So before you look at others, you need
to see yourself...!

Of course raw beginners can gain something from more skilled swimmers.
Smith seems to believe he is in this position, and he may well be.

But advanced swimmers must find their own best set of motions; if they, or
someone advising them, decide that because someone else is faster (or
because that person has a "perfect stroke"😉 then they should copy what that
person does, well then they are more than likely being misled.

There is no "perfect stroke".

On Jul 13, 11:21 pm, _ <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Budd said:

MW Smith said:

On Jul 12, 12:55 pm, _ <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Which makes the further point that most of the fastest swimmers will be
> extreme in some physical characteristics; and as such extremes cannot, in
> many cases, occur concurrently, the strokes utilised by such swimmers may
> well be extreme as well. Aping someone who is faster than you merely
> because they are faster is the mark of a beginner, who cannot

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nobody suggested aping someone who is faster. The suggestion was that
I would get a lot out of seeing my stroke in a side by side comparison
with a swimmer who is swimming with a perfect stroke. There is much
information in differences.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> a) see the differences between stroke styles; and or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...which is pretty much useless in this con text.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> b) understand which of those differences occur in response to the
> differences in the various physical characteristics that that swimmer
> possesses.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...but we aren't talking about aping someone who swims with a strange
stroke. We are talking about seeing the difference between MY stroke
and a perfect one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> There is no "perfect stroke".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've seen many swimmers swimming perfectly. I'm sorry you haven't, but
your loss doesn't invalidate my point.

Quoted message said:

I taught swimming classes to "raw beginners" here at the Univ. at
Buffalo for 20 years, and every time we used video in class, to let
the students visualize what they were doing, their technique
improvement was immediate. Whether it's side by side or just video of
the individual, when you can see what "you" are doing, the quicker
your technique will improve. So before you look at others, you need
to see yourself...!

Of course raw beginners can gain something from more skilled swimmers.
Smith seems to believe he is in this position, and he may well be.

Smith said exactly what he meant. Seeing oneself on video swimming
stroke for stroke next to someone swimming with a perfect stroke would
be informative to me, and it has nothing to do with beginner status.
You should stop digging, or you'll never get out.

Quoted message said:

But advanced swimmers must find their own best set of motions; if they, or
someone advising them, decide that because someone else is faster (or
because that person has a "perfect stroke"😉 then they should copy what that
person does, well then they are more than likely being misled.

At no point in this discussion did anyone but you talk about copying
someone who is faster. In fact, no one said anything about copying at
all. What was discussed was a comparison of my stroke with the stroke
of a swimmer swimming with a perfect stroke.

Quoted message said:

There is no "perfect stroke".

I have seen many swimmers swimming with perfect strokes. I'm sorry you
haven't.

Budd said:

MW Smith said:

On Jul 12, 12:55 pm, _ <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Which makes the further point that most of the fastest swimmers will be
extreme in some physical characteristics; and as such extremes cannot, in
many cases, occur concurrently, the strokes utilised by such swimmers may
well be extreme as well. Aping someone who is faster than you merely
because they are faster is the mark of a beginner, who cannot

Quoted message said:

Nobody suggested aping someone who is faster. The suggestion was that
I would get a lot out of seeing my stroke in a side by side comparison
with a swimmer who is swimming with a perfect stroke. There is much
information in differences.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a) see the differences between stroke styles; and or

Quoted message said:

...which is pretty much useless in this con text.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

b) understand which of those differences occur in response to the
differences in the various physical characteristics that that swimmer
possesses.

Quoted message said:

...but we aren't talking about aping someone who swims with a strange
stroke. We are talking about seeing the difference between MY stroke
and a perfect one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is no "perfect stroke".

Quoted message said:

I've seen many swimmers swimming perfectly. I'm sorry you haven't, but
your loss doesn't invalidate my point.

I taught swimming classes to "raw beginners" here at the Univ. at
Buffalo for 20 years, and every time we used video in class, to let
the students visualize what they were doing, their technique
improvement was immediate. Whether it's side by side or just video of
the individual, when you can see what "you" are doing, the quicker
your technique will improve. So before you look at others, you need
to see yourself...!

That is exactly my view.

Quoted message said:

There is no "perfect stroke".

In the absolute sense, there is not a "one size fits all" approach to
stroke technique that can be equally applied at all skill levels.
However, there are varying degrees of stroke efficiency to consider when
acknowledging different levels of swimming skills. Elite competitive
swimmers often display certain technique commonalities where efficiency
is concerned, but there are exceptions with regard to stroke style (e.g.
Janet Evans).

Steve Curtis said:

Quoted message said:

There is no "perfect stroke".

In the absolute sense, there is not a "one size fits all" approach to
stroke technique that can be equally applied at all skill levels.
However, there are varying degrees of stroke efficiency to consider when
acknowledging different levels of swimming skills. Elite competitive
swimmers often display certain technique commonalities where efficiency
is concerned, but there are exceptions with regard to stroke style (e.g.
Janet Evans).

Exactly.

Were there a "perfect stroke", they would all (attempt to) use it.

Beginners may look at advanced swimmers and

a) fail to see the differences; and

b) be so impressed by the advanced swimmers' skill

that they think what they are seeing is a "perfect stroke".