Rasmussen out

Simon Brooke said:

If he turns out to have been telling the exact truth, what will /you/ do to
help him get his career back?

Nothing, because I will never believe him, he's playing in a tainted
sport, and didn't go out of his way to ensure that he wasn't under
suspicion, so I'm sorry, he's either a complete idiot, or he's a
cheat. either way I'm not gonna help him back - I don't want people
under suspicion cycling - If he comes back because there's not enough
evidence, then it'll just encourage more people to try it on.

Cycling has got to have a complete zero tolerance, as much to missing
a test as failing one completely. Regardless of the reasons for
missing the test, even if he missed it 'cos he was stuck down a well
rescuing little Timmy.

Jim.

Nick twisted the electrons to say:

Quoted message said:

Tony Raven said:

I shall henceforth use that as the "reason" for my performance ;-)

I had always suspected your posts were "enhanced" by drug use ;o)

Is that drug use on the part of Tony, or drug use by the reader?
Enquiring minds and all that ...
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

Excellent!

As for excellent, this is as bad as it gets. Now we have Contador (ex
Astana/Liberty Seguros/Sainz/Fuentes) in yellow. Where will this end?

Hang on a mo. I've suddenly realised that I seem to be not only out of
synch with the cycling community but indeed the whole world.

I think this tdf has been great for cycling.

We know drug taking has been widespread in the peloton for decades. If
you (ie the cycling community and the whole world) say that it is a
farce because the cheats have been discovered, then you must prefer
that the cheats go undetected. To me that is a bigger farce and most
certainly hypocritical.

By squaring up to the dope cheats, cycling has become superior to all
of the other key global sports.

Two other things that have me excited:

(i) Clean riders are for the first time speaking out en masse against
the cheats - I believe this has never happened before.
(ii) Predictor Lotto planning to sue Vino for lost publicity. This is
fabulous. If PL can prove in Court that a rider has cheated, and get
all his money if they are successful, I think it will be a triumph for
justice and send a real message to the cheats.

Now we have to get after Contador and see if he has doped. We need to
keep going until we can be reasonably satisfied that we have a clean
winner and peloton.

I think you all need to have a bit more bottle.

(Once again these points are made subject to Tony's comments; some of
this does indeed look fishy, incestuous and French).

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

The fact that he missed random drugs tests and that he lied about his
whereabouts obviously doesn't prove that he is a cheat, but IMO the team
were right to sack him.

Exactly.

We have no evidence he cheated. We have evidence he lied.

How reliable is that?

There is the word of a journalist who claims to have seen him in Italy.
I'd like to think that there's something a little more substantial than
that.

Daniele

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

Ben C said:

On 2007-07-26, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Having read around further, it appears that a director of Rabobank (the
bank) saw an interview with Davide Cassani on Dutch television last
night, and phoned up the team manager and told him to lose Rasmussen.
There does not seem to be any other evidence.

One of the stories I read said that Rasmussen had admitted to de Rooy
that he had lied about his whereabouts. It may be that de Rooy heard
about the Cassani interview, confronted Rasmussen, Rasmussen admitted he
lied, de Rooy sacked him, Rasmussen had time to compose himself, found
out that actually the only evidence he was in Italy is this bit of
hearsay from Cassani, and then started telling the press what he wishes
he had thought of telling de Rooy at the time, i.e. denying he was in
Italy.

I think Simon's report is more credible. De Rooy was quoted to be in a
high state of agitation before confronting Ramussen. However Rabobank
is now saying it was a team and not a sponsor decision.

The question that's in my mind is how well did Cassani know Rasmussen, and
how close was he when he saw him? He says he saw him 'training in the
rain' and he gave two dates. Does that mean he believed he saw him on both
days, or that he isn't sure of the date? Furthermore, does this mean he
saw a cyclist the width of a carriageway away, or does it mean he cycled
alongside and spoke with Rasmussen?

Rasmussen is an unusual looking man, but he isn't that unusual; and someone
seen across the width of a road in pouring rain is easy to misidentify. On
the other hand if Cassani knows Rasmussen well and spoke with him, that's
a different story.

Does anyone know?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

See one nuclear war, you've seen them all.

in message <[email hidden]>, marc

(') said:

Tony Raven said:

Jim Ley said:

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:16:09 +0100, Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> We have no evidence he cheated. We have evidence he lied.

Right, and this exactly the type of condoning that continues to have
it being supported, your contention appears to be that despite being a
professional athlete he is too stupid to ensure he's tested, and to
not care about the consequences of him telling porkies, then he's
either cheating or a complete idiot.

Or maybe neither and we won't know for a few days or maybe ever.
Rasmussen is claiming he wasn't in Italy:

" "I'm shattered. I'm on the verge of tears," said Rasmussen today,
quoted in the Danish tabloid BT. "I was not in Italy. Not at all. That's
the story of one man who believes he recognised me. There is no hint of
evidence."

If it turns out to be uncorroborated evidence of a single individual it
will have been a really rum do. But that's the way it goes with the
current TdeF approach of punish the accused and then investigate the
evidence.

Easy to verify

To visit Mexico You need either a tourist visa , a tourist card or a
Business Visitors Card:
http://www.learn4good.com/travel/mexico_visa.htm#req

All Rasmussen has to do is produce one of the above.

It would be possible for Rasmussen to get the visa but not actually visit
Mexico. Equally, it would be possible for him to go to Mexico, and then
leave Mexico before he claimed to and go to Italy. Still in this day and
age with the boarding records we now have for flights, it should be
possible to verify when Rasmussen flew to Mexico (where he has family),
and when and to where he flew back.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
;; languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their
;; pockets for new vocabulary -- James D. Nicoll

in message
<[email hidden]>,

D.M. Procida (') said:

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

The fact that he missed random drugs tests and that he lied about his
whereabouts obviously doesn't prove that he is a cheat, but IMO the
team were right to sack him.

Exactly.

We have no evidence he cheated. We have evidence he lied.

How reliable is that?

There is the word of a journalist who claims to have seen him in Italy.
I'd like to think that there's something a little more substantial than
that.

Yup, I regret posting that.

We have evidence that Cassani thought he saw Rasmussen in Italy when
Rasmussen says he was in Mexico. We know that Cassani saw the cyclist he
thought was Rasmussen in the rain, and I understand that he saw him across
the width of a carriageway. It isn't exactly a perfect identification.

Cassani was a rider from 1982 to 1996, so he never raced with Rasmussen.
Since then he's been a cycling journalist, so he will have seen Rasmussen,
probably often, and must know what he looks like. But there are other
people who look like Rasmussen, especially when seen across the width of a
road on a wet day.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

wafflycat said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bang to rights gov, caught me red handed loading up on theobromine
which is know to significantly enhance my performance.

Tony

Compound W is horribly addictive...

But very good for you. It boosts the immune system just
from the smell alone. It releases serotonin in the brain,
and improves alertness. It also contains carbohydrates,
and may reduce cholesterol levels.

Martin

raisethe said:

I think this tdf has been great for cycling.

Me too, for the same reasons you expressed.
The non cycling media seem to be reporting that this years TdeF is a
failure, I feel its just the opposite

Quoted message said:

Despite all of the blather, I still don't think there really is a
strong enough will to clean up the sport. I hope I'm wrong.

I've got no love of the French people but I'm really impressed with
the two TdeF guys giving the press
conferences. They sound sincere in their belief that their race and
the sport can be clean and can be
run well with no dopage.

Quoted message said:

raisethe said:

I think this tdf has been great for cycling.

Me too, for the same reasons you expressed.
The non cycling media seem to be reporting that this years TdeF is a
failure, I feel its just the opposite

Quoted message said:

Despite all of the blather, I still don't think there really is a
strong enough will to clean up the sport. I hope I'm wrong.

I've got no love of the French people but I'm really impressed with
the two TdeF guys giving the press
conferences. They sound sincere in their belief that their race and
the sport can be clean and can be
run well with no dopage.

lets hope so.

The only other sport which dominates my TV viewing is Cross Country
Skiracing at World Cup level.
Two sports which are both trying to remove the blemish in the public
eye of being contaminated by
cheats.
Both sports rely heavily on WADA in trying to get dopage free racing

You may like to cast your eye over this
http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/fisanti-doping/anti-doping-quiz.html
which I've not seen elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

The only other sport which dominates my TV viewing is Cross Country
Skiracing at World Cup level.
Two sports which are both trying to remove the blemish in the public
eye of being contaminated by
cheats.
Both sports rely heavily on WADA in trying to get dopage free racing

You may like to cast your eye over this
http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/fisanti-doping/anti-doping-quiz.html
which I've not seen elsewhere.

9/10

I failed on the question about who has access to the
information about the athletes whereabouts.
Two of the answers were near identical.

Simon Brooke said:

Rasmussen is an unusual looking man, but he isn't that unusual; and someone
seen across the width of a road in pouring rain is easy to misidentify. On
the other hand if Cassani knows Rasmussen well and spoke with him, that's
a different story.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know?

Cassani knows Rasmussen from his friendship with Rolf Sørensen.

Cassina syas the talked to Rasmussen and offered him food and warm
clothes in the rainstorm.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

in message <[email hidden]>, Morten Reippuert Knudsen

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

Rasmussen is an unusual looking man, but he isn't that unusual; and
someone seen across the width of a road in pouring rain is easy to
misidentify. On the other hand if Cassani knows Rasmussen well and spoke
with him, that's a different story.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know?

Cassani knows Rasmussen from his friendship with Rolf Sørensen.

Cassina syas he talked to Rasmussen and offered him food and warm
clothes in the rainstorm.

H'mmm. If that's true, it sounds conclusive.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Women are from Venus. Men are from Mars. Lusers are from Uranus.

Simon Brooke said:

We have evidence that Cassani thought he saw Rasmussen in Italy when
Rasmussen says he was in Mexico. We know that Cassani saw the cyclist he
thought was Rasmussen in the rain, and I understand that he saw him across
the width of a carriageway. It isn't exactly a perfect identification.

Cassani was a rider from 1982 to 1996, so he never raced with Rasmussen.
Since then he's been a cycling journalist, so he will have seen Rasmussen,
probably often, and must know what he looks like. But there are other
people who look like Rasmussen, especially when seen across the width of a
road on a wet day.

So all Rasmussen needs is a credible witness from
his time in Mexico, or air tickets, or resturant
receipts (etc).

BugBear

bugbear bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim said:

Simon Brooke said:

We have evidence that Cassani thought he saw Rasmussen in Italy when
Rasmussen says he was in Mexico. We know that Cassani saw the cyclist he
thought was Rasmussen in the rain, and I understand that he saw him across
the width of a carriageway. It isn't exactly a perfect identification.

Cassani was a rider from 1982 to 1996, so he never raced with Rasmussen.
Since then he's been a cycling journalist, so he will have seen Rasmussen,
probably often, and must know what he looks like. But there are other
people who look like Rasmussen, especially when seen across the width of a
road on a wet day.

So all Rasmussen needs is a credible witness from
his time in Mexico, or air tickets, or resturant
receipts (etc).

I still think he's been changing his story. Why would de Rooy sack his
man, leading the Tour and quite likely to win in Paris, if everything is
as Rasmussen says it is? Such decisions are not taken lightly, and he
believed him before. I think Rasmussen initially admitted to de Rooy he
lied about his whereabouts when the Italy thing broke.

Tony Raven said:

John B said:

Tony Raven said:

Because Rasmussen was well and truly beating them all and his
performance and removal seems to have nothing to do with cheating - his
post stage tests have all come out clean.

Quoted message said:

But of course all those lab tests are suspect, aren't they Tony ;-)

Yes, but if you go down the all winners must have doped road, then there
will be no point holding the competition.

if it's good enough for witchfinders

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile I will continue to
work on the innocent until proved guilty basis.

bleeding liberals

igmc
james

Ben C said:

I still think he's been changing his story. Why would de Rooy sack his
man, leading the Tour and quite likely to win in Paris, if everything is
as Rasmussen says it is? Such decisions are not taken lightly, and he
believed him before. I think Rasmussen initially admitted to de Rooy he
lied about his whereabouts when the Italy thing broke.

There certainly seems to be some confusion with the team saying on ITV4
last night that he had admitted it when confronted and him saying he was
not in Italy and it was mistaken identity. I guess if he has the
verification he was in Mexico he will produce it. But there does seem
to have been a long campaign during the Tour to get him out which peaked
with his being jeered as he finished Stage 16 and then sacked once it
was obvious he was almost certainly going to win. There seems to be a
lot more to it than just this episode but maybe that will become clear
in the next few days or never.

Tony

Quoted message said:

The non cycling media seem to be reporting that this years TdeF is a
failure,

Yeah, well, these will be the same sloppy journalists who keep claiming
that Vinokourov tested positive for drugs and that Landis was found to
have elevated testosterone levels.

Quoted message said:

I feel its just the opposite

<AOL>

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"Daddy, put that down. Daddy, put that down. Daddy, put that down.
Daddy, why did you put that down?" - Charlie Colyer, age 2

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ben C said:

I still think he's been changing his story. Why would de Rooy sack his
man, leading the Tour and quite likely to win in Paris, if everything is
as Rasmussen says it is? Such decisions are not taken lightly, and he
believed him before. I think Rasmussen initially admitted to de Rooy he
lied about his whereabouts when the Italy thing broke.

There certainly seems to be some confusion with the team saying on ITV4 last
night that he had admitted it when confronted and him saying he was not in
Italy and it was mistaken identity. I guess if he has the verification he
was in Mexico he will produce it. But there does seem to have been a long
campaign during the Tour to get him out which peaked with his being jeered
as he finished Stage 16 and then sacked once it was obvious he was almost
certainly going to win. There seems to be a lot more to it than just this
episode but maybe that will become clear in the next few days or never.

Tony

I just cannot believe you lot -- leaning backwards to excuse this total liar!
( and all the other "sportsmen" doing similar evasive tactics)

He is hiding some misdemeanour and is well sacked --just like the rest of
the cheats. It is extremely easy for him to state the truth but he will not.
He should be subject to a total life ban from the "sport" (Hah what sport!)
like the rest of them. The TdF will be hugely better without them

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk