locking a single cog on a freewheel hub

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Since I have found Sheldon Brown's >advice to be quite reliable (snip)

The road hub/cog/no lockring setup worked for me, never a problem. Cog put on well greased threads,
*tight*, with a chain whip or cog tool, not by pedaling while holding the brake.

I didn't do much backpedaling. If you're going to specialize in "madcap adventures" maybe you want a
track hub, as much for the wider flanges and low-or-zero "dish", thus stronger wheel, and the nutted
axles, as for the lockring. --Tom Paterson

Quoted message said:

so I went to my preferred local bike shop to ask about getting a cog and a "lock ring" for a
freewheel hub. The man in the shop, whose strong opinions I generally appreciate, told me that I
would be taking my life into my own hands using such a setup and told me to buy a real track hub
with the correct left threaded lock ring.

i concur with your lbs - use a dedicated fixed hub.

fwiw, i personally /have/ tried the freewheel hub solution, with an old rh thread "lockring" from a
bottom bracket. it was all threaded together /real/ tight, but the cog /did/ unscrew at a critical
backpedalling moment, and i still have the scars from over 25 years ago to prove the consequences.

i hate unnecessary expense, and if i believed there was a reliable cost effective way of achieving
cheap re-use of a freewheel hub in this situation, i'd endorse it.

jb

Victor said:

Since there is this general discussion regarding fixed gear riding going on, I thought I might
raise an issue that I have encountered. Apparently, I'm about to be swept along by the tide, so I
went to my preferred local bike shop to ask about getting a cog and a "lock ring" for a freewheel
hub. The man in the shop, whose strong opinions I generally appreciate, told me that I would be
taking my life into my own hands using such a setup and told me to buy a real track hub with the
correct left threaded lock ring.

I bought a track hub with a lock ring and to cut a long story short eventually dropped the chain and
mangled the hub. The upshot, the lock ring had to be hacked off and since I'm a cheap git I refitted
without a lock ring, it unscrewed twice within two years no big deal. I run two brakes though so
don't need to rely on the fixed as the second brake. This is of course fixed gear heresy. 😉

With hindsight I would go for the cheaper option and elevate the cost from there dependant upon
your mood.

Its good clean fun whichever way you go.

I rode for years without a lockring and never unscrewed a cog. The force you use when starting up is
much more then you can use to slow the bike down - the rear tire would skid with maybe half that
pedal force.

So lube the threads and install the cog, then pedal hard from a standing start.

And even if the cog does unscrew you should be able to handle the bike without causing any harm.
Just make sure your other brake works.

-Bruce

"Victor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since there is this general discussion regarding fixed gear riding going on, I thought I might
raise an issue that I have encountered. Apparently, I'm about to be swept along by the tide, so I
went to my preferred local bike shop to ask about getting a cog and a "lock ring" for a freewheel
hub. The man in the shop, whose strong opinions I generally appreciate, told me that I would be
taking my life into my own hands using such a setup and told me to buy a real track hub with the
correct left threaded lock ring.

Since I have found Sheldon Brown's advice to be quite reliable - to wit, I build my own wheels
using only what I have read on his website and race on them without reservation - and he suggests
this quick and easy fixed gear conversion using a freewheel hub, I am wondering how to proceed
from here. Knowing full well that many people follow his directions (to varying degrees of
accuracy), I'm wondering if perhaps Brown's experience counts for more with this setup than a
(probably) well meaning bike shop owner who wants to expose himself to a minimum of legal
liabilities.

Of course, cost enters into the picture as well. A cog and lockring, and some spacers for the
chainring are a minimal expense, whereas having to additionally buy a new rim, spokes, and hub is
quite another matter.

I thank you for your response, and look forward to rear wheel popups and other madcap adventures
as soon as I get this monster between my legs. That sounds better than I even intended.

Victor

Victor said:

Since there is this general discussion regarding fixed gear riding going on, I thought I might
raise an issue that I have encountered. Apparently, I'm about to be swept along by the tide, so I
went to my preferred local bike shop to ask about getting a cog and a "lock ring" for a freewheel
hub. The man in the shop, whose strong opinions I generally appreciate, told me that I would be
taking my life into my own hands using such a setup and told me to buy a real track hub with the
correct left threaded lock ring.

He's right, unless you keep two brakes on the bike.

Quoted message said:

Since I have found Sheldon Brown's advice to be quite reliable - to wit, I build my own wheels
using only what I have read on his website and race on them without reservation - and he suggests
this quick and easy fixed gear conversion using a freewheel hub, I am wondering how to proceed
from here. Knowing full well that many people follow his directions (to varying degrees of
accuracy), I'm wondering if perhaps Brown's experience counts for more with this setup than a
(probably) well meaning bike shop owner who wants to expose himself to a minimum of legal
liabilities.

Of course, cost enters into the picture as well. A cog and lockring, and some spacers for the
chainring are a minimal expense, whereas having to additionally buy a new rim, spokes, and hub is
quite another matter.

The converted freewheel hub is an OK way to test the waters of fixed-gear riding, but only if you
keep two brakes on the bike, because the single-threaded hub is not trustworthy as a backup "brake."

I highly recommend a real track hub with a proper lockring. Then you don't need any additional rear
brake, just a front and the hub.

I no longer particularly recommend using an old bottom-bracket lockring on converted freewheel
hubs...blue Loctite does the trick very nicely, but, again, don't rely on it for braking in traffic.

Sheldon "I Didn't Say That!" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------+
| If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is | the man who has so much as to be out of danger? |
| --T.H. Huxley |
+-----------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

so I went to my preferred local bike shop to ask about getting a cog and a "lock ring" for a
freewheel hub. The man in the shop, whose strong opinions I generally appreciate, told me that I
would be taking my life into my own hands using such a setup and told me to buy a real track hub
with the correct left threaded lock ring.

jim beam said:

i concur with your lbs - use a dedicated fixed hub.

fwiw, i personally /have/ tried the freewheel hub solution, with an old rh thread "lockring" from
a bottom bracket. it was all threaded together /real/ tight, but the cog /did/ unscrew at a
critical backpedalling moment, and i still have the scars from over 25 years ago to prove the
consequences.

i hate unnecessary expense, and if i believed there was a reliable cost effective way of achieving
cheap re-use of a freewheel hub in this situation, i'd endorse it.

We've had this discussion here many times before. There's a group of people who insist that is safe
and effective. I am not among them! There is an LBS near here which risks their customer's bodies in
just that way. Shabby.

IMHO a Suzue fixed hub is a cheap and reasonable route to an urban fixed bike. But we get a lot of
requests for something even cheaper and we are _not_ going to screw a fixed cog on a freewheel hub.

So I devised a very cheap and effective way to build a fixed gear using a scrap steel hub:
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED1.JPGOpen ↗
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED2.JPGOpen ↗

It has given good service in regular use for three seasons as our shop errand bike.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

IMHO a Suzue fixed hub is a cheap and reasonable route to an urban fixed bike.

exactly! for a part that costs ~$25, i see no reason not to use one!

Quoted message said:

So I devised a very cheap and effective way to build a fixed gear using a scrap steel hub:
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED1.JPGOpen ↗
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED2.JPGOpen ↗

now, /that/ is the way to do it!

was thinking along similar lines as i posted that previous response, but decided not to throw it in
because it's not something i could do at home. also, any lash could lead to loosening, which is why
the l/h thread lockring is such a good idea, but as you've had good luck with it so far, it's
probably more of a theoretical concern than practical.

[email hidden] (Victor) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Since there is this general discussion regarding fixed gear riding going on, I thought I might
raise an issue that I have encountered. Apparently, I'm about to be swept along by the tide, so I
went to my preferred local bike shop to ask about getting a cog and a "lock ring" for a freewheel
hub. The man in the shop, whose strong opinions I generally appreciate, told me that I would be
taking my life into my own hands using such a setup and told me to buy a real track hub with the
correct left threaded lock ring.

<cut>

On my fixed I simply used a fixed sprocked on a standard rear wheel, the only other changes I made
were to move the large chainring to the position occupied by the small one, re-space and re-dish the
rear wheel.

Total cost £5.00 for the sprocket (I already had appropriate spacers for the axle to hand to replace
the long spacer on the freewheel side).

I have had no problems with the sprocket loosening - indeed, when I wanted to change the sprocket
from an 18 to a 16 I found it very difficult to remove. I see no need for a lockring.

The other thing I would note is that clipless pedals make it easier to ride. I would certainly want
some pedal retention system, and toeclips are rather hard to enter on a fixie.

My advice to you - try it.

Andrew Webster

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

IMHO a Suzue fixed hub is a cheap and reasonable route to an urban fixed bike. But we get a lot
of requests for something even cheaper and we are _not_ going to screw a fixed cog on a
freewheel hub.

So I devised a very cheap and effective way to build a fixed gear using a scrap steel hub:
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED1.JPGOpen ↗
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED2.JPGOpen ↗

Hey! I just did something similar! I realized I had a hub on which the side opposite the threaded
side is the same diameter (just unthreaded). So I took a Dremel and hacked three channels to match
up with a Bendix cog and a groove to accomodate the metal retaining clip. It's now a freewheel/fixed
flip flop! Well, sort of. It looks like the chainline will need to be adjusted for the fixed gear,
but nothing insurmountable. Now all I need to do is find a 13 tooth cog to replace the 15t Bendix
that's there.

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So I devised a very cheap and effective way to build a fixed gear using a scrap steel hub:
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED1.JPGOpen ↗
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED2.JPGOpen ↗

Neat. What sort of sprocket is that? And a BB lockring, I suppose?

--Josh

Victor said:

Since there is this general discussion regarding fixed gear riding going on, I thought I might
raise an issue that I have encountered. Apparently, I'm about to be swept along by the tide, so I
went to my preferred local bike shop to ask about getting a cog and a "lock ring" for a freewheel
hub. The man in the shop, whose strong opinions I generally appreciate, told me that I would be
taking my life into my own hands using such a setup and told me to buy a real track hub with the
correct left threaded lock ring.

Since I have found Sheldon Brown's advice to be quite reliable - to wit, I build my own wheels
using only what I have read on his website and race on them without reservation - and he suggests
this quick and easy fixed gear conversion using a freewheel hub, I am wondering how to proceed
from here. Knowing full well that many people follow his directions (to varying degrees of
accuracy), I'm wondering if perhaps Brown's experience counts for more with this setup than a
(probably) well meaning bike shop owner who wants to expose himself to a minimum of legal
liabilities.

Of course, cost enters into the picture as well. A cog and lockring, and some spacers for the
chainring are a minimal expense, whereas having to additionally buy a new rim, spokes, and hub is
quite another matter.

I thank you for your response, and look forward to rear wheel popups and other madcap adventures
as soon as I get this monster between my legs. That sounds better than I even intended.

It's OK provided you keep both brakes on and don't try to resist the pedals. If at any time you feel
the rear wheel is "freewheeling", pedal like mad to tighten the sprocket! For the full fixed gear
experience you do need a proper hub with a lockring.

(NB: in theory you can apply a bigger tightening force with a long chainwhip than you'll ever be
able to apply using the pedals, because the torque is much less at the hub than at the BB, but in
practice the cog still tends to come loose when you least expect it - probably due to shock loads
when you pedal and hit a pothole at the same time)

Bruce said:

I rode for years without a lockring and never unscrewed a cog. The force you use when starting up
is much more then you can use to slow the bike down - the rear tire would skid with maybe half
that pedal force.

In which case it would be just as prone to skidding when starting off, which I doubt you can do with
a typical 42x14!

IME I can stop from a given speed in about the same distance as I can accelerate to that speed in
the first place. It's supposed to be rather bad for your knees if you do it a lot.

A Muzi said:

So I devised a very cheap and effective way to build a fixed gear using a scrap steel hub:
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED1.JPGOpen ↗
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED2.JPGOpen ↗

It has given good service in regular use for three seasons as our shop errand bike.

Presumably you could just weld the sprocket in place with a steel hub?

weinstev-<< I'm about to be swept along by the tide, so I went to my preferred local bike shop to
ask about getting a cog and a "lock ring" for a freewheel hub. The man in the shop, whose strong
opinions I generally appreciate, told me that I would be taking my life into my own hands using such
a setup and told me to buy a real track hub with the correct left threaded lock ring.

Bugleoil...We have some track guys that don't use lockrings on track events. besides, you could put
an english BB lockring onto the freewheel body if ya gotta have a 'lockring'. But with at least one
brake, using a freewheel hub with a cog, with or w/o a lockring is no big deal.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bruce said:

I rode for years without a lockring and never unscrewed a cog. The

force

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you use when starting up is much more then you can use to slow the bike down - the rear tire
would skid with maybe half that pedal force.

In which case it would be just as prone to skidding when starting off, which I doubt you can do
with a typical 42x14!

No. When accelerating you are moving the center of gravity back, so there is more weight on the rear
wheel. So you can apply more force to the rear tire. When decelerating you are moving the weight
forward and hence there is less weight on the rear wheel and it takes much less force to skid.

This is not proof that it takes the same force to unscrew as what you used to tighten. It's just
that I observed that the force needed to unscrew the cog is more then the maximum force from
braking. However it's not the maximum force but the jerk from the start of braking that frees the
cog, and that depends on your style of braking.

So I think it comes down to a matter of style if you can ride without a lockring. Other factors: the
quality of the parts also affects the force or jerk needed to loosen the cog. And the gear ratio is
another variable - a higher gear lowers the force. My typical gear is not a 42/14 but closer to a
42/16 or 17.

Aside: if acceleration is the 2nd derivative, then what is the name for the 3rd derivative? Is there
a better name for than jerk?

-Bruce

Quoted message said:

IME I can stop from a given speed in about the same distance as I can accelerate to that speed in
the first place. It's supposed to be rather bad for your knees if you do it a lot.

Zog The Undeniable said:

Quoted message said:

I rode for years without a lockring and never unscrewed a cog. The force you use when starting up
is much more then you can use to slow the bike down - the rear tire would skid with maybe half
that pedal force.

In which case it would be just as prone to skidding when starting off, which I doubt you can do
with a typical 42x14!

Um, no. No more than a front wheel is prone to skid when stopping.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you _`\(,_ | killed all of us?
From every corner of Europe, hundreds, (_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places.
Even Nazis can't kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

Quoted message said:

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So I devised a very cheap and effective way to build a fixed gear using a scrap steel hub:
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED1.JPGOpen ↗
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED2.JPGOpen ↗

Josh Gatts said:

Neat. What sort of sprocket is that? And a BB lockring, I suppose?

As Mr Papercut noted above, a standard Bendix type 3-splined cog is cheap and available in all the
relevant sizes . That system obviates a cog uncrewing at an inopportune moment ( noting that while
the results can be disastrous, the risk is remote. YMMV)

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

So I devised a very cheap and effective way to build a fixed gear using a scrap steel hub:
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED1.JPGOpen ↗
yellowjersey.orgAQFIXED2.JPGOpen ↗

It has given good service in regular use for three seasons as our shop errand bike.

Zog The Undeniable said:

Presumably you could just weld the sprocket in place with a steel hub?

I have done that, too. Brazed a single freewheel body to a steel hub (a small left-side motor assist
for a disbled rider) but this way doesn't heat the bearing cup, allows cog change and took only a
few minutes with a rotary file.

Papercut's idea is neat also, but I thought screwing on a scrap lockring involved less suffering
than cutting a groove for a snapring.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Victor wrote:

<vut>

Quoted message said:

It's OK provided you keep both brakes on and don't try to resist the pedals. If at any time you
feel the rear wheel is "freewheeling", pedal like mad to tighten the sprocket! For the full fixed
gear experience you do need a proper hub with a lockring.

This is simply not the case. I have just a front brake for when I need it, but usually don't use it.
I have not had any problems with sprocket loosening, in fact, it is exceedingly difficult to remove
even when I want to remove it.

Q. What am I missing in the "full fixed gear experience" that I'm not getting now? What magical
effect will a lock ring have that will give that "full fixed gear experience" that I am so
clearly lacking on my lockring-less setup?

Quoted message said:

(NB: in theory you can apply a bigger tightening force with a long chainwhip than you'll ever be
able to apply using the pedals, because the torque is much less at the hub than at the BB, but in
practice the cog still tends to come loose when you least expect it - probably due to shock loads
when you pedal and hit a pothole at the same time)

But the sprocket (NOT "cog"😉 doesn't tend to come loose.

Ah, I have it! To get the mystical magical "full fixed gear experience" I need a single COG, not a
singe SPROCKET at the back. Now that would certainly make a difference!

(though your use of the term was anticipated see

groups.google.co.ukgroupsOpen ↗
9911%40typhoon.sonic.net&rnum=5

for details).

Andrew Webster