Why the old guard may need to go

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Ultimately, I think it's time for Johan, and the other directors from
that generation, to step aside. Too much history, too much
association with doping. If things are truly going to change, and if
the ASO stays so stupid that it refuses to extend any forgiveness
whatsoever to sins of the past, then the people themselves have to
leave. But we're missing a huge opportunity in doing so. An
opportunity that's probably already past, I'm afraid.

It would have made more sense, I think, if those of yesteryear were
allowed to talk, and become instruments of change, rather than be
forced to continue with their non-secrets still packed away in the
closet, leaving the riders to believe that it's OK if you don't get
caught, and that the anti-doping efforts aren't any more serious now
than then.
All because those associated with those past times can't deal with it
openly without fear of being banned from cycling.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Hey, that's perfect corporate strategy. Can the old guys who may be
experienced, wise, capable of guiding exuberant and headstrong racers, who
have offered the sport the greater part of their careers without [censored],
and of course with some record of success.

Replace them with capable, goofy-smile dopes (not dopers) for 20% of the
cost (and no expense account - they overnight in the team trailer, no bus),
less security, no clout with organizers, UCI, colleagues, just when they
find out they can't handle the speed of the Elite 2 circuit because they
stink.

And sponsors, too. Any company with annual revenues over 50 million is
barred, and if it's a subsidiary, you count the mother ship to calculate.

Then you find only racers who have never competed internationally (or
successfully, like Bouygues) and have a morbid fear of any kind of
innoculation, injection or applied cream. They get corn flakes, sugar and
milk with no limit. No coffee, of course.

Bikes are next. Weight minimum of 10kg. If it was good enough for Coppi,
it's still good today. 6 speed maximum. No carbon.

And support cars? No support cars, offering 80 water bottles to a single
rider in a single race/stage. They want water, they stop at the local
grocer along the way.

Yes, indeed - sounds like the future of pro cycling mapped out to a "T".

Hysteria comes in many forms, including mass hysteria. Anti-doping crusades
are feel-good hypocrisy.
--
Sandy
--
C'est le contraire du vélo, la bicyclette.
Une silhouette profilée mauve fluo dévale
à soixante-dix à l'heure : c'est du vélo.
Deux lycéennes côte à côte traversent
un pont à Bruges : c'est de la bicyclette.
-Delerm, P.

Quoted message said:

Hysteria comes in many forms, including mass hysteria. Anti-doping
crusades are feel-good hypocrisy.

Hey, don't jump on me. I agree with you. But the ASO has forced this issue.
It's the ASO that pretends it's history is as a clean sport and then goes
after anyone who reveals details otherwise (Riis). An
extraordinarily-cynical way of looking at it would be that the new,
dramatically-lower-but-level playing field you predict would make the French
more competitive.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Ultimately, I think it's time for Johan, and the other directors from
that generation, to step aside. Too much history, too much
association with doping. If things are truly going to change, and if
the ASO stays so stupid that it refuses to extend any forgiveness
whatsoever to sins of the past, then the people themselves have to
leave. But we're missing a huge opportunity in doing so. An
opportunity that's probably already past, I'm afraid.

It would have made more sense, I think, if those of yesteryear were
allowed to talk, and become instruments of change, rather than be
forced to continue with their non-secrets still packed away in the
closet, leaving the riders to believe that it's OK if you don't get
caught, and that the anti-doping efforts aren't any more serious now
than then.
All because those associated with those past times can't deal with it
openly without fear of being banned from cycling.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Hey, that's perfect corporate strategy. Can the old guys who may be
experienced, wise, capable of guiding exuberant and headstrong racers, who
have offered the sport the greater part of their careers without [censored],
and of course with some record of success.

Replace them with capable, goofy-smile dopes (not dopers) for 20% of the
cost (and no expense account - they overnight in the team trailer, no
bus), less security, no clout with organizers, UCI, colleagues, just when
they find out they can't handle the speed of the Elite 2 circuit because
they stink.

And sponsors, too. Any company with annual revenues over 50 million is
barred, and if it's a subsidiary, you count the mother ship to calculate.

Then you find only racers who have never competed internationally (or
successfully, like Bouygues) and have a morbid fear of any kind of
innoculation, injection or applied cream. They get corn flakes, sugar and
milk with no limit. No coffee, of course.

Bikes are next. Weight minimum of 10kg. If it was good enough for Coppi,
it's still good today. 6 speed maximum. No carbon.

And support cars? No support cars, offering 80 water bottles to a single
rider in a single race/stage. They want water, they stop at the local
grocer along the way.

Yes, indeed - sounds like the future of pro cycling mapped out to a "T".

Hysteria comes in many forms, including mass hysteria. Anti-doping
crusades are feel-good hypocrisy.
--
Sandy
--
C'est le contraire du vélo, la bicyclette.
Une silhouette profilée mauve fluo dévale
à soixante-dix à l'heure : c'est du vélo.
Deux lycéennes côte à côte traversent
un pont à Bruges : c'est de la bicyclette.
-Delerm, P.

Bravo! Well said.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ultimately, I think it's time for Johan, and the other directors from that
generation, to step aside. Too much history, too much association with
doping. If things are truly going to change, and if the ASO stays so
stupid that it refuses to extend any forgiveness whatsoever to sins of the
past, then the people themselves have to leave. But we're missing a huge
opportunity in doing so. An opportunity that's probably already past, I'm
afraid.

It would have made more sense, I think, if those of yesteryear were
allowed to talk, and become instruments of change, rather than be forced
to continue with their non-secrets still packed away in the closet,
leaving the riders to believe that it's OK if you don't get caught, and
that the anti-doping efforts aren't any more serious now than then.

All because those associated with those past times can't deal with it
openly without fear of being banned from cycling.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ultimately, I think it's time for Johan, and the other directors from
that generation, to step aside. Too much history, too much association
with doping. If things are truly going to change, and if the ASO stays
so stupid that it refuses to extend any forgiveness whatsoever to sins
of the past, then the people themselves have to leave. But we're
missing a huge opportunity in doing so. An opportunity that's probably
already past, I'm afraid.

It would have made more sense, I think, if those of yesteryear were
allowed to talk, and become instruments of change, rather than be
forced to continue with their non-secrets still packed away in the
closet, leaving the riders to believe that it's OK if you don't get
caught, and that the anti-doping efforts aren't any more serious now
than then.

All because those associated with those past times can't deal with it
openly without fear of being banned from cycling.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Who that has raced for Johan has tested positive for drugs? Floyd, who
I believe is innocent. Tyler H., about whom I'm not sure. Who else?
I'd like to know Johan's record compared to that of other team directors
before lumping him in with the old guard.

Just my opinion.

-S-

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hysteria comes in many forms, including mass hysteria. Anti-doping
crusades are feel-good hypocrisy.

Hey, don't jump on me. I agree with you. But the ASO has forced this
issue. It's the ASO that pretends it's history is as a clean sport
and then goes after anyone who reveals details otherwise (Riis). An
extraordinarily-cynical way of looking at it would be that the new,
dramatically-lower-but-level playing field you predict would make the
French more competitive.

You'd have to be hard doping to think the French would do better. :-)

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ultimately, I think it's time for Johan, and the other directors from that
generation, to step aside. Too much history, too much association with
doping.

Yeah, me too, I think that what we need is an entirely new generation of
DS's that don't have the slightest idea of what is going on with their
riders when they're doped to the gills.

Quoted message said:

Who that has raced for Johan has tested positive for drugs? Floyd, who I
believe is innocent. Tyler H., about whom I'm not sure. Who else? I'd
like to know Johan's record compared to that of other team directors
before lumping him in with the old guard.

It doesn't matter. My point was that they could have set up a structure that
would have removed doubt, both from the public and from the riders
themselves. But as things stand, we just don't know. And that uncertainty is
what is most-assuredly holding back progress. Once we know, we can deal with
it and move on. If we deal with it fairly, the future looks bright. If we
deal with it in a draconian fashion, people will find better things to do
with their lives than race bikes.

Right now, whether guilty or innocent in their past life, their (the DS)
protestations will be the same, because admission of guilt, no matter how
far back, appears to be very bad for your future. That needs to change.
Without that change, the only way we can deal with it, in a way that makes
sense for the racers, is to sweep clean any possible suspects from
management, with or without proof.

I cannot believe I'm saying this.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hysteria comes in many forms, including mass hysteria. Anti-doping
crusades are feel-good hypocrisy.

Hey, don't jump on me. I agree with you. But the ASO has forced this
issue. It's the ASO that pretends it's history is as a clean sport
and then goes after anyone who reveals details otherwise (Riis). An
extraordinarily-cynical way of looking at it would be that the new,
dramatically-lower-but-level playing field you predict would make the
French more competitive.

You'd have to be hard doping to think the French would do better. :-)

Sandy, most of the time you make a lot of sense. Only when you fly off into
one of your uncharacteristic campaigns against doping do we seem to
disagree.

You can't get rid of doping in sports. The best you can do is continually
try to keep up with the new doping methods and test test test.

The older riders who have seen all of it and who have then seen many of
their friends die relatively young from side effects are probably far better
equipped to deal with the drugging in the sport than feckless preachers.

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who that has raced for Johan has tested positive for drugs? Floyd,
who I believe is innocent. Tyler H., about whom I'm not sure. Who
else? I'd like to know Johan's record compared to that of other team
directors before lumping him in with the old guard.

It doesn't matter. My point was that they could have set up a
structure that would have removed doubt, both from the public and
from the riders themselves. But as things stand, we just don't know.
And that uncertainty is what is most-assuredly holding back progress.
Once we know, we can deal with it and move on. If we deal with it
fairly, the future looks bright. If we deal with it in a draconian
fashion, people will find better things to do with their lives than
race bikes.
Right now, whether guilty or innocent in their past life, their (the
DS) protestations will be the same, because admission of guilt, no
matter how far back, appears to be very bad for your future. That
needs to change. Without that change, the only way we can deal with
it, in a way that makes sense for the racers, is to sweep clean any
possible suspects from management, with or without proof.

I cannot believe I'm saying this.

--Mike Jacoubowsky

You STILL propose chopping off old heads and replace them with unknowns.
You mean to say young managers won't cheat? Like young riders? Stop,
please.

Better, have all national federations vote to withdraw from Olympics,
forcing UCI to abandon association with WADA. If crimes are committed (most
countries now punish doping conduct), let civil authorities handle it.
Refer all appeals to commercial arbitration, not TAS. You'd be surprised,
perhaps, to learn how formidable it can be to act like a grown up.

BTW, riders ought to consult their own doctors, first, not team doctors.
The veneer of the argument against doping is that riders injure their health
with these things. If you were forced to change your personal physician
each year or two, how happy would that make you?
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

"Le Vin est la plus saine et la plus hygiénique des boissons."
- Louis Pasteur

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who that has raced for Johan has tested positive for drugs? Floyd, who I
believe is innocent. Tyler H., about whom I'm not sure. Who else? I'd
like to know Johan's record compared to that of other team directors
before lumping him in with the old guard.

It doesn't matter. My point was that they could have set up a structure
that would have removed doubt, both from the public and from the riders
themselves.

And what is that Mike? How is it that all of the testing they presently do
costing millions of dollars reports so few positives? Is it because the
dopers are better than the testers or because there ain't that much doping
going on and what there is has been seriously compromised by all of the
testing?

Quoted message said:

But as things stand, we just don't know. And that uncertainty is what is
most-assuredly holding back progress.

What do you call "progress"? You don't honestly believe that they can get
rid of doping completely do you?

Mike, I think that you're in a negative mood today. Get a good rest tonight
and I think that you'll see things more clearly in the morning.

If you have people snorting cocaine at the tables of major restaurants in
San Francisco just how do you propose to make 100% certain that all riders
are clean?

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Ultimately, I think it's time for Johan, and the other directors from that
generation, to step aside. Too much history, too much association with
doping. If things are truly going to change, and if the ASO stays so stupid
that it refuses to extend any forgiveness whatsoever to sins of the past,
then the people themselves have to leave. But we're missing a huge
opportunity in doing so. An opportunity that's probably already past, I'm
afraid.

It would have made more sense, I think, if those of yesteryear were allowed
to talk, and become instruments of change, rather than be forced to continue
with their non-secrets still packed away in the closet, leaving the riders
to believe that it's OK if you don't get caught, and that the anti-doping
efforts aren't any more serious now than then.

All because those associated with those past times can't deal with it openly
without fear of being banned from cycling.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Thing is, it's not the sins of the past..it's the sins of the present.
While other teams (T-Mobile, Slipstream, CSC) are going out of their
way to run things in a way to make the sport cleaner, Discovery and
several other teams are, depending on your belief, either a) going
around with their heads in the sand, b) adopting a blinkered eye
philosophy, letting their riders do what they like, or c) actively
doping their riders, as before.

What with the Basso case, the Ferrari history and his general
approach, Johan Bruyneel did nothing to inspire confidence in the
team's cleanliness. Other teams are being far more transparent and
will, as a result, reap the benefits in terms of financial support
from sponsors. Those who don't understand and embrace the necessary
change will be under more and more pressure in the future.

Look, two riders in the top three in the Tour, and yet the team STILL
folds; that shows that there is a real lack of confidence in the
management.

Sandy said:

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who that has raced for Johan has tested positive for drugs? Floyd,
who I believe is innocent. Tyler H., about whom I'm not sure. Who
else? I'd like to know Johan's record compared to that of other team
directors before lumping him in with the old guard.

It doesn't matter. My point was that they could have set up a
structure that would have removed doubt, both from the public and
from the riders themselves. But as things stand, we just don't know.
And that uncertainty is what is most-assuredly holding back progress.
Once we know, we can deal with it and move on. If we deal with it
fairly, the future looks bright. If we deal with it in a draconian
fashion, people will find better things to do with their lives than
race bikes.
Right now, whether guilty or innocent in their past life, their (the
DS) protestations will be the same, because admission of guilt, no
matter how far back, appears to be very bad for your future. That
needs to change. Without that change, the only way we can deal with
it, in a way that makes sense for the racers, is to sweep clean any
possible suspects from management, with or without proof.

I cannot believe I'm saying this.

--Mike Jacoubowsky

You STILL propose chopping off old heads and replace them with unknowns.
You mean to say young managers won't cheat? Like young riders? Stop,
please.

Better, have all national federations vote to withdraw from Olympics,
forcing UCI to abandon association with WADA. If crimes are committed (most
countries now punish doping conduct), let civil authorities handle it.
Refer all appeals to commercial arbitration, not TAS. You'd be surprised,
perhaps, to learn how formidable it can be to act like a grown up.

I agree. Mike has chosen the incorrect old guard to campaign against.

Also, that's one hell of a sentence about acting like a grown up. Perfect.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

I think it's time for Johan, and the other directors from that
generation, to step aside.

Johan Bruyneel is one of the younger DSs. He was racing at the
highest level ten years ago. There is a generation of guys who were
directing teams when Bruyneel was racing who are still in those
positions. So I guess everyone has to go?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Quoted message said:

I agree. Mike has chosen the incorrect old guard to campaign against.

Also, that's one hell of a sentence about acting like a grown up. Perfect.

But I wasn't campaigning *against* the old guard. If I'm campaigning against
anything, it's the ASO's ridiculous attitude that encourages people to stay
in the closet because, if you come out, you'll possibly be banned for life
from their events.

The intent of my post was to illustrate the absurdity of the present
situation. Do you think that efforts against doping when it can be assumed
by his racers that he's telling lies about his past (if he claims not to
have doped)?

It's not the old-guard's fault they're in this situation. I don't blame them
for trying to keep their jobs now, any more than I blame them for what they
did in the past. But I think I've presented a good case that progress will
not be made if the riders see that the past is made up of lies, and that
coming clean may end your career.

And I would further suggest that coming up with something so bold as to get
rid of anyone who may have had a past association with doping just might
wake a few people up and get them to recognize the serious flaws in their
current obsession with doping. Because eventually you come to recognize that
virtually everyone has some connection.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Fred Fredburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré
:

Quoted message said:

> Who that has raced for Johan has tested positive for drugs? Floyd,
> who I believe is innocent. Tyler H., about whom I'm not sure. Who
> else? I'd like to know Johan's record compared to that of other team
> directors before lumping him in with the old guard.
>
It doesn't matter. My point was that they could have set up a
structure that would have removed doubt, both from the public and
from the riders themselves. But as things stand, we just don't know.
And that uncertainty is what is most-assuredly holding back progress.
Once we know, we can deal with it and move on. If we deal with it
fairly, the future looks bright. If we deal with it in a draconian
fashion, people will find better things to do with their lives than
race bikes.
Right now, whether guilty or innocent in their past life, their (the
DS) protestations will be the same, because admission of guilt, no
matter how far back, appears to be very bad for your future. That
needs to change. Without that change, the only way we can deal with
it, in a way that makes sense for the racers, is to sweep clean any
possible suspects from management, with or without proof.

I cannot believe I'm saying this.

--Mike Jacoubowsky

You STILL propose chopping off old heads and replace them with unknowns.
You mean to say young managers won't cheat? Like young riders? Stop,
please.

Better, have all national federations vote to withdraw from Olympics,
forcing UCI to abandon association with WADA. If crimes are committed
(most countries now punish doping conduct), let civil authorities handle
it. Refer all appeals to commercial arbitration, not TAS. You'd be
surprised, perhaps, to learn how formidable it can be to act like a grown
up.

I agree. Mike has chosen the incorrect old guard to campaign against.

Also, that's one hell of a sentence about acting like a grown up. Perfect.

"need more sun" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thing is, it's not the sins of the past..it's the sins of the present.
While other teams (T-Mobile, Slipstream, CSC) are going out of their
way to run things in a way to make the sport cleaner, Discovery and
several other teams are, depending on your belief, either a) going
around with their heads in the sand, b) adopting a blinkered eye
philosophy, letting their riders do what they like, or c) actively
doping their riders, as before.

I'll try to be polite despite the fact that your attitude pisses me off.
Could it POSSIBLY be that a good DS can try to move a great rider away from
using drugs since unlike most of these idiots here, they know that drugs
don't really enhance performance that much compared to a well trained rider?

Dr. Ferrari was eventually absolved of all charges. What's more his
published papers show that he is a genius at getting the best out of a rider
using standard training techniques developed by Conconi, him and Cechini.

And answer me this - if you're a doctor and a professional cyclist comes to
you and says that he wants to dope to increase his performance what do you
do knowing that he might go to some quack who might well kill him? I can
well imagine that Ferrari prescribed dope to losers who insisted on thinking
that they were winners. But that doesn't describe the underlying reasons
that someone who has taken a Hippocratic oath might actually have an
overriding value for his patients well being and so to advise his patients
in the proper use of what they might otherwise use indiscriminately. You
might recall such actions ending in quite a few dead Dutch cyclists.

Quoted message said:

What with the Basso case, the Ferrari history and his general
approach, Johan Bruyneel did nothing to inspire confidence in the
team's cleanliness.

Maybe you missed the point that Basso was CLEARED when Discovery hired him.
While it turned out that later Basso admitted trying to dope there was no
proof of it at that point in time.

Maybe you prefer fascist tactics for anyone accused even without proof but
some of us have more respect for the world around us.

In article
<[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

,

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Mike Jacoubowsky <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

> Hysteria comes in many forms, including mass hysteria. Anti-doping
> crusades are feel-good hypocrisy.

Hey, don't jump on me. I agree with you. But the ASO has forced this
issue. It's the ASO that pretends it's history is as a clean sport
and then goes after anyone who reveals details otherwise (Riis). An
extraordinarily-cynical way of looking at it would be that the new,
dramatically-lower-but-level playing field you predict would make the
French more competitive.

You'd have to be hard doping to think the French would do better. :-)

Sandy, most of the time you make a lot of sense. Only when you fly off into
one of your uncharacteristic campaigns against doping do we seem to
disagree.

Uhhh, Tom, Sandy is not railing against doping.

--
Michael Press

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Who that has raced for Johan has tested positive for drugs? Floyd, who I
believe is innocent. Tyler H., about whom I'm not sure. Who else? I'd
like to know Johan's record compared to that of other team directors
before lumping him in with the old guard.

It doesn't matter. My point was that they could have set up a structure that
would have removed doubt, both from the public and from the riders
themselves. But as things stand, we just don't know. And that uncertainty is
what is most-assuredly holding back progress. Once we know, we can deal with
it and move on. If we deal with it fairly, the future looks bright. If we
deal with it in a draconian fashion, people will find better things to do
with their lives than race bikes.

Right now, whether guilty or innocent in their past life, their (the DS)
protestations will be the same, because admission of guilt, no matter how
far back, appears to be very bad for your future. That needs to change.
Without that change, the only way we can deal with it, in a way that makes
sense for the racers, is to sweep clean any possible suspects from
management, with or without proof.

I cannot believe I'm saying this.

While we are at it let's get rid of all the old line
cycling fans; what a bunch of cynical, opinionated,
jock sniffers they are. Cycling needs doe eyed,
fresh-faced, believers in a dope free peleton. Only
then will cycling be saved.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>,

need more sun said:

What with the Basso case, the Ferrari history and his general
approach, Johan Bruyneel did nothing to inspire confidence in the
team's cleanliness.

Except test positive 100%. They _must_ have been doping.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden].
net>,

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

need more sun said:

What with the Basso case, the Ferrari history and his general
approach, Johan Bruyneel did nothing to inspire confidence in the
team's cleanliness.

Except test positive 100%. They _must_ have been doping.

That was supposed to be negative.

Barkeep, another stingah.

--
Michael Press