Poll: Are cyclists a menace on the road?

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:30:40 +1000, [email hidden]

(Peter) said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Courier Mail Poll:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

The article photo has the overtaking driver giving plenty of space.
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5605507,00.jpg
Well done 282-AJG !

(Peter) said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Courier Mail Poll:http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

C'mon, we're 1% behind!

Donga said:

(Peter) said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Courier Mail Poll:http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

C'mon, we're 1% behind!

As at 19:41 AEST

Poll Results

Thanks for voting, here are the results so far:

Are cyclists a menace on the road?

Yes 41% (433 votes)
No 58% (604 votes)
Sum votes:
Total votes: 1037 votes so far

--
--
Pete.B

quote='Donga'On Aug 12 said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Courier Mail Poll:http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

C'mon, we're 1% behind![/QUOTE]

17% gap, pulling away swiftly. Dust clouds rising.

Are cyclists a menace on the road?
Yes: 41% (433 votes)
No: 58% (606 votes)
Sum votes: Total votes: 1039 votes so far

PS. Can someone get a screen shot of the online poll before it closes?

cfsmtb said:

Donga said:

(Peter) said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Courier Mail Poll:http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

C'mon, we're 1% behind!

17% gap, pulling away swiftly. Dust clouds rising.

Are cyclists a menace on the road?
Yes: 41% (433 votes)
No: 58% (606 votes)
Sum votes: Total votes: 1039 votes so far

PS. Can someone get a screen shot of the online poll before it closes?

--
cfsmtb

Irrespective of such dodgy poll outcomes where polarized
voters get a chance to push their favourite barrow,
cyclists are not going to give up riding on the road
if the motorists vote them off the road.

Here in the ACT it became obvious that without cycle lanes on roads,
and despite a generous few hundred kilometres of cycle paths and
interconnected footpaths
and recreational trails, cyclists still insisted they be able to ride on
the road, and
insisted the motorists all have a duty of care about them.

I once rode 300kms a week nearly all on roads in the ACT between 1986
and 1992,
and had quite a few interfaces with motorists and bus/truck drivers who
could have easily killed me in a number of incidents.

The actual number of cyclists then was about a 1/3 of ppl riding now,
and nearly all angry young men.
Now the crowd of guys has grown, and has many females amoungst them.
The number of vehicles has doubled.
Had there been no cycle lanes installed many more cyclists would have
been maimed or killed,
and much more argy bargy would have continued.
So the motorist lobby caved in to political Labour Party largesse at the
time and cycle lanes were
installed to separate the motorists from cyclists. Hooray!!!

And so now its much less likely that cyclists actually become a menace,
and there is more peace and security for all, because the action taken
by motorists
to cope with passing cyclists on crowded busy roads is less fraught with
danger to all traffic flow.
And for example, I have been nearly creamed by vehicles towing trailers
which often have been
a foot wider than the tow vehicle, so someone passes with a tight
clearance,
but fogetting the wider trailer width, and its whizzed past your feet
inches away, phew...
I ride close to the gutter even when I'm in a bike lane.
It also leaves room for faster cysclists to pass without a swing out
into the car lane, something that really infuriates drivers no end.

The actual number of cyclists is still miniscule,
and only in peak hours in summer does the number of cyclists commuting
become
actually visible, because most ppl who
ride here hang up the bike in late March, get fat over winter,
then begin to ride again in September. Many are triathletes who
rarely cycle regularly all year around.

If you sit by the busiest road, Northbourne Ave,
at off peak times, maybe one cyclist rides past every 10 minutes;
its an extremely tiny % of the traffic flow in terms of people passing.
Many won't go near a busy road because they are nervous nellies
or they can't stand the motor fumes.

But for sure this tiny stream of cyclists is not a menace to motorists.

Meanwhile, despite the good motorists, and the cycle lanes and cycle
paths,
many motorists are a definite menace to cyclists.

So what the poll question should be is "Are motorists a menace to
cyclists?"

With cycle lanes, I am a less temporary Australian.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick Turner said:

SNIP
So the motorist lobby caved in to political Labour Party largesse at the
time and cycle lanes were
installed to separate the motorists from cyclists. Hooray!!!

And so now its much less likely that cyclists actually become a menace,
and there is more peace and security for all, because the action taken
by motorists
to cope with passing cyclists on crowded busy roads is less fraught with
danger to all traffic flow.
SNIP

I find bike lanes useful in many places. But in inner Melbourne, they
are no substitute for vehicular cycling and skills to merge and "take
the lane" where necessary. Bike lanes don't help much at
intersections, and if installed thoughtlessly can be dangerous
themselves, eg in the parked car door zone.
http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregated_cycle_facilities

Quoted message said:

So what the poll question should be is "Are motorists a menace to
cyclists?"

Absolutely! Or at least make it more truthful, ie: "Are cyclists an
inconvenience to motorists?"

cfsmtb said:

Donga said:

(Peter) said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Courier Mail Poll:http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

C'mon, we're 1% behind!

17% gap, pulling away swiftly. Dust clouds rising.

Are cyclists a menace on the road?
Yes: 41% (433 votes)
No: 58% (606 votes)
Sum votes: Total votes: 1039 votes so far

PS. Can someone get a screen shot of the online poll before it closes?

When I first looked at the poll the situation was, Yes 67% No 33%. They
should run a poll such as: Are cyclists better organised than most
groups when it comes to manipulating online polling?

Do you want a screen shot emailed Chris?

P

Patrick Turner said:

The actual number of cyclists then was about a 1/3 of ppl riding now,
and nearly all angry young men.
Now the crowd of guys has grown, and has many females amoungst them.
The number of vehicles has doubled.
Had there been no cycle lanes installed many more cyclists would have
been maimed or killed,
and much more argy bargy would have continued.
So the motorist lobby caved in to political Labour Party largesse at the
time and cycle lanes were
installed to separate the motorists from cyclists. Hooray!!!

That's debateable.

France has very little in the way of `cycling infrastructure' so you see a lot more of them on the roads as a part of normal traffic. Far from there being argy bargy, cyclists are treated with the utmost resepct.

I was taking part in an organised bike tour around Paris. The leader was about to cork the intersection to usher everyone through but noticed there was an ambulance with blues and twos about to head through. He aborted the cork and waved him through.

The reaction of the ambulance driver was to gratefully wave his thanks to the organizer. I don't have to wonder what a Melbourne paramedic's reaction to being delayed for 5 seconds while the tour guide sorted things out would have been.

Road infrastructure is a small part of the big picture, attitude is much more important.

Patrick Turner said:

I ride close to the gutter even when I'm in a bike lane.
It also leaves room for faster cysclists to pass without a swing out
into the car lane, something that really infuriates drivers no end.

Missed this bit. You're riding in the most dangerous place of the road.

The reason you're nearly getting creamed is because you're not sending the message to other traffic that they have to move to get past you.

The safest place to ride is where the nearside wheels of normal traffic run. Traffic has to move to get past you so traffic moves by a decent amount. All of a sudden you're no longer getting creamed.

Also 'cause you're not in the gutter you're much more visible and visibility is a cyclists first and best defence.

(Peter) said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Courier Mail Poll:http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

I find this very disturbing:

"The CARSguide.com.au online survey has found cyclists are the most
hated road users at 28 per cent.

They were followed by large trucks (20 per cent), large 4WDs (15 per
cent) and illegal window washers who bale up motorists at traffic
lights.

The national survey of 1026 people"

WTF have I ever done to a motorist? I ride to the left, minding my
own business. It's disturbing to think that cyclists are "hated",
though I can take some solace in the fact that 1026 drivers is a very,
very small sample.

quote=''On Aug 12 said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Courier Mail Poll:preview.tinyurl.com2yuv33Open ↗

I find this very disturbing:

"The CARSguide.com.au online survey has found cyclists are the most
hated road users at 28 per cent.

They were followed by large trucks (20 per cent), large 4WDs (15 per
cent) and illegal window washers who bale up motorists at traffic
lights.

The national survey of 1026 people"

WTF have I ever done to a motorist? I ride to the left, minding my
own business. It's disturbing to think that cyclists are "hated",
though I can take some solace in the fact that 1026 drivers is a very,
very small sample.[/QUOTE]

I can only speak for Melbourne, I wouldn't put much credence in that poll. Driver attitudes on the road have improved out of sight over the last two or three years here.

It is an unusual event if I have a negative interaction with another road user these days, not the norm.

On Aug 13, 9:08 am, EuanB <EuanB.2v8...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Quoted message said:

(Peter) said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Courier Mail Poll:http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

Quoted message said:

I find this very disturbing:

Quoted message said:

"The CARSguide.com.au online survey has found cyclists are the most
hated road users at 28 per cent.

Quoted message said:

They were followed by large trucks (20 per cent), large 4WDs (15 per
cent) and illegal window washers who bale up motorists at traffic
lights.

Quoted message said:

The national survey of 1026 people"

Quoted message said:

WTF have I ever done to a motorist? I ride to the left, minding my
own business. It's disturbing to think that cyclists are "hated",
though I can take some solace in the fact that 1026 drivers is a very,
very small sample.

I can only speak for Melbourne, I wouldn't put much credence in that
poll. Driver attitudes on the road have improved out of sight over the
last two or three years here.

It is an unusual event if I have a negative interaction with another
road user these days, not the norm.

--
EuanB

Apart from never moving over to give me any room (even when there's no
oncoming traffic) I've never had any trouble either. I guess reading
that article made me paranoid that every driver going past was full of
murderous intent, willing to mow me down (I mean, they rated us above
traffic light window washers FFS!) Just cause I'm not paranoid
doesn't mean they're not out to get me...

"Patrick Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

cfsmtb said:

Donga said:

On Aug 12, 1:30 pm, [email hidden] (Peter) wrote:
> VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN
>
> Courier Mail Poll:http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

C'mon, we're 1% behind!

17% gap, pulling away swiftly. Dust clouds rising.

Are cyclists a menace on the road?
Yes: 41% (433 votes)
No: 58% (606 votes)
Sum votes: Total votes: 1039 votes so far

PS. Can someone get a screen shot of the online poll before it closes?

--
cfsmtb

Irrespective of such dodgy poll outcomes where polarized
voters get a chance to push their favourite barrow,
cyclists are not going to give up riding on the road
if the motorists vote them off the road.

Here in the ACT it became obvious that without cycle lanes on roads,
and despite a generous few hundred kilometres of cycle paths and
interconnected footpaths
and recreational trails, cyclists still insisted they be able to ride on
the road, and
insisted the motorists all have a duty of care about them.

I once rode 300kms a week nearly all on roads in the ACT between 1986
and 1992,
and had quite a few interfaces with motorists and bus/truck drivers who
could have easily killed me in a number of incidents.

The actual number of cyclists then was about a 1/3 of ppl riding now,
and nearly all angry young men.
Now the crowd of guys has grown, and has many females amoungst them.
The number of vehicles has doubled.
Had there been no cycle lanes installed many more cyclists would have
been maimed or killed,
and much more argy bargy would have continued.
So the motorist lobby caved in to political Labour Party largesse at the
time and cycle lanes were
installed to separate the motorists from cyclists. Hooray!!!

And so now its much less likely that cyclists actually become a menace,
and there is more peace and security for all, because the action taken
by motorists
to cope with passing cyclists on crowded busy roads is less fraught with
danger to all traffic flow.
And for example, I have been nearly creamed by vehicles towing trailers
which often have been
a foot wider than the tow vehicle, so someone passes with a tight
clearance,
but fogetting the wider trailer width, and its whizzed past your feet
inches away, phew...
I ride close to the gutter even when I'm in a bike lane.
It also leaves room for faster cysclists to pass without a swing out
into the car lane, something that really infuriates drivers no end.

The actual number of cyclists is still miniscule,
and only in peak hours in summer does the number of cyclists commuting
become
actually visible, because most ppl who
ride here hang up the bike in late March, get fat over winter,
then begin to ride again in September. Many are triathletes who
rarely cycle regularly all year around.

If you sit by the busiest road, Northbourne Ave,
at off peak times, maybe one cyclist rides past every 10 minutes;
its an extremely tiny % of the traffic flow in terms of people passing.
Many won't go near a busy road because they are nervous nellies
or they can't stand the motor fumes.

But for sure this tiny stream of cyclists is not a menace to motorists.

Meanwhile, despite the good motorists, and the cycle lanes and cycle
paths,
many motorists are a definite menace to cyclists.

So what the poll question should be is "Are motorists a menace to
cyclists?"

With cycle lanes, I am a less temporary Australian.

Patrick Turner.

Interesting. However I'm uncomfortable with the idea that separating
cyclists and motor vehicles is necessarily a good thing. What that
separation helps is the attitude that cyclists shouldn't be on the road. I'd
prefer it if other road users simply accepted everyone as having the right
to be there. There's too much priority given to motor vehicles, which
marginalises pedestrians, cyclists and even, to a large extent, motocyclists
and scooters.

I found, after riding in Australia for some time, that when I scooted off to
Europe it took me several days to NOT ride in the gutter - I had
unconsciously relegated myself to second-class-road-user status. There are
far fewer cycle paths in Europe than here, yet I never feel as vulnerable
cycling in most of Europe as I do here. Other road users accept bicyles and
others as a normal part of the traffic.

I think it's much more important to work on road user conceptions, backed up
by good laws than it is to build more infrastructure. It's cheaper too!
Unless there's a dedicated cycle path on every road, all the paths do is
restrict the places in which one can ride more safely (still not 'safe'
until other users stop cutting into the lane - attitude again).

I strongly believe we should shift the focus away from throwing dollars at
infrastructure and throw some cash toward changing conceptions and road user
behaviours.

2 cents worth...

Frank

Quoted message said:

WTF have I ever done to a motorist? I ride to the left, minding my
own business. It's disturbing to think that cyclists are "hated",
though I can take some solace in the fact that 1026 drivers is a very,
very small sample.

And remember, too, that these polls are self-selected. Only those who
care deeply (for sufficient values thereof) about the issue are going to
bother voting, so the result is going to be biased - no ifs, no buts, no
maybes.

Better would be if they generated home phone numbers at random and
called people to ask the question. The answer would probably be "Most
hated road users? Telemarketers. *CLUNK*!" :-)

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@ to usenet".

Peter said:

Are cyclists better organised than most
groups when it comes to manipulating online polling?

Yes: 99%
No: 1%

--
Bean

"I've got a bike
You can ride it if you like
It's got a basket
A bell that rings
And things to make it look good
I'd give it to you if I could
But I borrowed it" Pink Floyd

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

Peter said:

VOTE EARLY VOTE OFTEN

Courier Mail Poll:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yuv33

Yes
36% (519 votes)
No
63% (890 votes)

As of 10:30 am 13/8

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

Bean Long said:

Yes
36% (519 votes)
No
63% (890 votes)

As of 10:30 am 13/8

Heartfelt thanks of a Brisbanite to out-staters!

Donga

Stuart Lamble said:

Better would be if they generated home phone numbers at random and
called people to ask the question. The answer would probably be "Most
hated road users? Telemarketers. *CLUNK*!" :-)

Try Clive the Slightly Too Loud Commuter: (Warning: NSFW)

People like this are inadvertently making other people consider cycling as way to work .. 😉

Quoted message said:

Patrick Turner said:

SNIP
So the motorist lobby caved in to political Labour Party largesse at the
time and cycle lanes were
installed to separate the motorists from cyclists. Hooray!!!

And so now its much less likely that cyclists actually become a menace,
and there is more peace and security for all, because the action taken
by motorists
to cope with passing cyclists on crowded busy roads is less fraught with
danger to all traffic flow.
SNIP

I find bike lanes useful in many places. But in inner Melbourne, they
are no substitute for vehicular cycling and skills to merge and "take
the lane" where necessary. Bike lanes don't help much at
intersections, and if installed thoughtlessly can be dangerous
themselves, eg in the parked car door zone.
http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregated_cycle_facilities

Quoted message said:

So what the poll question should be is "Are motorists a menace to
cyclists?"

Absolutely! Or at least make it more truthful, ie: "Are cyclists an
inconvenience to motorists?"

I myself have no doubt that I feel a lot sage with bike lanes
compared to when there were not any.

If the bike lane is moved further to the side of the road then you have
to ride across all the driveways
and its no better than riding on footpaths, and NBG!

To retro fit a city with suitable uncluttered separate bike paths well
away from roads,
tar sealed, at least 2 metres wide with a centre line is always
affordable by the city
and its people but its simply never easy to achieve an uncluttered and
uninterupted
cycle flow.
And cyclists don't like constant stopping.
They like to jump on the bike and never stop until they are at work, or
at where
they want to go.

Here in the ACT they have alloted land to cycle paths when they set out
the city and its suburbs.
So you can go for kilos and kilos without taking a foot off a pedal.

The whole network could be either a lot better, or a heck of a lot
worse,
as it is in Sydney.

Unless a cycle path is made to allow cyclists to whiz along at 30kph
unimpeded,
so thay can get past all the people walking their dogs, women pushing
prams, ppl walking 3 abreast,
people teaching toddlers to ride, and all the other damn obstacles,
they'll take to the
roads, where unless there are lanes and nicely sealed edges, they will
always be unwelcome from a
substantial % of motorists.

The argy bargy and general war between cyclists and motorists and glass
bottles
has been going on now for about 100 years+ and there's little sign of
any
accord or peace treaty being arranged that is entirely acceptable to
everyone.

I spent a year riding on Sydney's roads in 1988, maybe I rode 10,000kms,
and
frankly, I must have had a couple of winged agents based in heaven who
have looked after me,
as I am still here, because the business of traffic back then was
frenetic,
and risk filled everywhere I went.

Where there were cycle lanes, it felt quite luxurious.....

Patrick Turner.