Training/Racing Advice Needed

jsirabella said:

...If any of you good folks know where I can download an earlier version of this software so I can use it today...I would be most grateful....thank you all....

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but you can download CyclingPeaks WKO+ right now. It'll cost you a bit more than getting the Poweragent SW, but it really is the best power analysis SW out there and the price is reasonable.

Check it out here: cyclingpeakssoftware.comwkoOpen ↗

-Dave

P.S. I see they offer a free trial period so you can at least view today's data, but be warned if you try it, you'll buy it 🙂

OK I downloaded it and first of all any software that lets you choose the comport and the type of device you are using, take it from an old programmer, knows its stuff and has been around the block with the qa department....so I knew you were going to be right.

What blew my mind though were pages 53 and 54 of the book. To me after the FTP I wanted to see if the book could cut the mustard in terms of prediciting my power levels based upon their research....damn they were almost right on the money!

I will be honest as my ego is not that easily bruised but after doing the test, I calculated my ftp under the test and environment conditions was 230 (adding in the .05 variance as the book suggested). I than made a spreadsheet to calculate all my different power based training levels as in table 3.1.

Now for my test I compared the numbers the table represented to the different parts of the test where I was doing the VO2 Max and the endurance (65% of max hr) and they were almost dead on...difference of a few points here or there.

This is very exciting and I can not wait to give this to my coach. I will be doing the power profile test next week but will continue with coach schedule but I am than hoping to calculate my weak points and strong points and than make a better training schedule.

Well other than I am just plain weak and need to work on everything...:o

-js

On a strange note, the software said my max hr went up to 229 during the test...is that really possible, probably just a glitch correct??? My gm trainer said not gonna happen likely unless I am talking to the dead now...

daveryanwyoming said:

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but you can download CyclingPeaks WKO+ right now. It'll cost you a bit more than getting the Poweragent SW, but it really is the best power analysis SW out there and the price is reasonable.

Check it out here: cyclingpeakssoftware.comwkoOpen ↗

-Dave

P.S. I see they offer a free trial period so you can at least view today's data, but be warned if you try it, you'll buy it 🙂

jsirabella said:

I than made a spreadsheet to calculate all my different power based training levels as in table 3.1.

You can just enter your FTP on the athlete page in the box provided then open the menu on that box and click 'calculate zones' to get Andy Coggan's zones. It really is good software.

jsirabella said:

...What blew my mind though were pages 53 and 54 of the book...

I don't have my copy of the book in front of me, but I'd guess you're talking about the power profile tables. Yeah, that's worth the cover price right there. Folks argue about the accuracy and the engine is only part of racing(ya still gotta drive well and be smart) but it's at least a yardstick for seeing where you stand. It's real purpose as the book describes is to gauge your relative strengths and weaknesses and to help you develop a training plan.

Quoted post said:

...I calculated my ftp under the test and environment conditions was 230 (adding in the .05 variance as the book suggested). I than made a spreadsheet to calculate all my different power based training levels as in table 3.1.

That's higher than where I started last fall and I've come up a long way from there(and dropped weight so the W/Kg really went up). As Roadie_scum pointed out, you don't need your own spreadsheet. Just enter your best FTP estimate on the athlete home page, calculate Coggan levels from the pull down menu and the program does the work for you. Make sure that you enter starting dates when the time comes to bump up your FTP estimate or it messes with the Performance Manager. IOW when that 230W becomes 240 or 250 make sure you follow the pull down menus to have that new FTP applied only from the new date forward. Took me a while to figure out that feature and I had to go back and rework my Performance Manager charts since it was knocking down all my TSS, CTL and ATL numbers everytime my FTP increased.

Quoted post said:

...Well other than I am just plain weak and need to work on everything...:o

Sure seems that way at the start, but don't despair you should see steady improvement for quite some time. FWIW I'd strongly recommend focusing on SST and L4 riding to bring up a really solid sub-threshold aerobic base. Especially if you feel like you need work across the board. It may not have you winning those crits right away, but it'll set you up better for long term success and give you a really solid base for future high end work. A lot of folks jump to the short anaerobic work too soon in hopes of getting instant speed and hanging tougher in training races. It might work short term, but you're better off in the long run getting your FTP up high with SST and L4 work and then adding the high end stuff on top of that solid base.

Quoted post said:

the software said my max hr went up to 229 during the test...is that really possible, probably just a glitch correct??? ...

Yeah, you get data anomolies like that from time to time, especially with the HR strap. All it takes is a strong magnetic field near a power line or wind getting under the strap and making an intermittent connection and you can get some really ridiculous numbers. Don't sweat it, it happens all the time. I hardly ever wear the HR strap anymore since a year of power and HR data plotted together really made me realize how little value I get out of the HR data. Others feel differently and you or your coach may find some really cool uses for both HR and power data but I'm really keying on the power stuff these days.

Good luck,
Dave

Hi Dave,

I want to start trying and combine my coaches schedule and change it up a little to involve the SST/Level 4 concept. I read the section again and feel it could be helpful.

Tomorrow I am suppose to do 2 Hour Tempo Ride with 10 X 3 min VO2 intervals, tempo 80-85% with 95-95rpm, Intg 88-92% with 75-80 rpm, hard gear, rest 4 min.

Now based upon my ftp thaat means 175-207watts during ride and than during intervals 244-276 watts and go down to endurance pace during the 4 min rests.

Now to work in an SST/Level 4 based upon the example in the book, they use Joe athlete who is a Cat III, 300 watts ftp and I am 230 watts ftp is that workout good for me as an SST/Level 4 or should I change it up a bit with longer intervals but much less like 2-3 12 minute ints with 5-8 minute rests??

I will than ask you later about my next workout which involves going up harlem 12 times which he wants me to do as a sprint. It is a short hill but steep with a curve. What kind of workout would that fall into in the levels? How could it be modified? The entire loop takes 5 minutes for me to do and I usually average about 170-190 watts for the entire loop of harlem hill.

Thanks for your help dave...

-js

daveryanwyoming said:

I don't have my copy of the book in front of me, but I'd guess you're talking about the power profile tables. Yeah, that's worth the cover price right there. Folks argue about the accuracy and the engine is only part of racing(ya still gotta drive well and be smart) but it's at least a yardstick for seeing where you stand. It's real purpose as the book describes is to gauge your relative strengths and weaknesses and to help you develop a training plan.

That's higher than where I started last fall and I've come up a long way from there(and dropped weight so the W/Kg really went up). As Roadie_scum pointed out, you don't need your own spreadsheet. Just enter your best FTP estimate on the athlete home page, calculate Coggan levels from the pull down menu and the program does the work for you. Make sure that you enter starting dates when the time comes to bump up your FTP estimate or it messes with the Performance Manager. IOW when that 230W becomes 240 or 250 make sure you follow the pull down menus to have that new FTP applied only from the new date forward. Took me a while to figure out that feature and I had to go back and rework my Performance Manager charts since it was knocking down all my TSS, CTL and ATL numbers everytime my FTP increased.

Sure seems that way at the start, but don't despair you should see steady improvement for quite some time. FWIW I'd strongly recommend focusing on SST and L4 riding to bring up a really solid sub-threshold aerobic base. Especially if you feel like you need work across the board. It may not have you winning those crits right away, but it'll set you up better for long term success and give you a really solid base for future high end work. A lot of folks jump to the short anaerobic work too soon in hopes of getting instant speed and hanging tougher in training races. It might work short term, but you're better off in the long run getting your FTP up high with SST and L4 work and then adding the high end stuff on top of that solid base.
Yeah, you get data anomolies like that from time to time, especially with the HR strap. All it takes is a strong magnetic field near a power line or wind getting under the strap and making an intermittent connection and you can get some really ridiculous numbers. Don't sweat it, it happens all the time. I hardly ever wear the HR strap anymore since a year of power and HR data plotted together really made me realize how little value I get out of the HR data. Others feel differently and you or your coach may find some really cool uses for both HR and power data but I'm really keying on the power stuff these days.

Good luck,
Dave

jsirabella said:

...Tomorrow I am suppose to do 2 Hour Tempo Ride with 10 X 3 min VO2 intervals, tempo 80-85% with 95-95rpm, Intg 88-92% with 75-80 rpm, hard gear, rest 4 min.

Frankly I'm not much of a fan of mix and match workouts. If I go out to ride VO2 Max(L5) then that's the focus for my workout: warmup, 5x5 or 8x3 or whatever, ride L1/L2- between efforts then cooldown. I find I can focus my efforts better that way than doing Tempo or SST along with my hard work. If I want to do both in the same day then I'll do the harder workout in the morning and the easier that evening with plenty of mental and physical regrouping between the efforts. Just my 2 cents, obviously your coach works on a different theory.

Quoted post said:

Now to work in an SST/Level 4 based upon the example in the book, they use Joe athlete who is a Cat III, 300 watts ftp and I am 230 watts ftp is that workout good for me as an SST/Level 4 or should I change it up a bit with longer intervals but much less like 2-3 12 minute ints with 5-8 minute rests??

You've obviously got to scale the power to your own FTP and since you're just getting started with L4 work you'll probably need to start with shorter efforts like the 12 minute efforts you describe. Just make sure they're at least 10 minutes long and as steady as you can do them. You should probably work the very low end of L4(or the high end of SST) for a couple of weeks before launching into solid L4 work. It'll help you get the pacing and power dialed in and get your body used to long interval work. I fall back to SST quite often and it hasn't hindered my FTP progress and is a great way to build CTL and to avoid overtraining while still getting good hard work.

Quoted post said:

...involves going up harlem 12 times which he wants me to do as a sprint. It is a short hill but steep with a curve. What kind of workout would that fall into in the levels? How could it be modified? The entire loop takes 5 minutes for me to do ...

That sounds like L6 anaerobic hill intervals. If the entire loop takes 5 minutes I assume you're sprinting the hill for 1.5 to 2.5 minutes per lap. If you hit this as hard as you can then it falls into L6 work. If the hill is less than 30 seconds long and you hit it as hard as you can then it's L7 work.

Basically you can look at training levels in terms of duration as well as power assuming you hold your best steady power for the duration. It breaks down like this based on the fuels you're burning:

- L7, neuromuscular sprints fueled by phosphocreatine; 5-30 seconds
- L6, anaerobic tolerance fueled by glycogen&lactate without O2, 30 seconds - 2.5 minutes
- L5, VO2 max fueled by O2, glycogen, lactate, 2.5 - 8 minutes
- L4, L3,L2,L1, Threshold fueled by O2, glycogen, lactate & fat(higher % fat/lower lactate at lower levels), >8 minutes

Each of these trains a different metabolic process so it's important to target those most suited to your events or long term development and it's important to hit at least the minimum duration for each system you want to train. There's overlap between adjacent systems and relationships like the way VO2 max sets a theoretical limit for aerobic performance or your "aerobic ceiling" so it helps to keep pushing that up especially after you realize a lot of gains in FTP.

-Dave

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the quick reply.

From your earlier post I gather you believe I shold start with SST/L4 and than move into the L4/L5 area once I built a solid base. I understand now what you mean by the mix and match of tempo and VO2 max.

Do you feel right now I should focus on SST/L4 work before doing any sort of L5/6/7?

I thought the workout my coach gave me was almost an SST/L4 with a few modifications but I can see from the book it is the amount of effort that is different.

Do you feel the following would be a good SST/L4 ride?

Warmup, 15min, Ride 5 min 100%, Ride, 9 min rest, 2 or 3 X 12 min, 88-94%, ride +105rpm, 2 min rest int 5 X 1 min. 85-95%, cool down.

Also when do you know you can move out of the SST/L4 and than go to L4? Also when do you start to work in the L5-7? What type of cadence should you keep during this level as I would like to work during the ints at higher gears. Once passed the SST/L4, which levels would be best for the crit I was thinking of racing?

On a way different note I was reading procycling and they say guys with "big engines" have VO2 Max of 80? What does that mean?

Alot of questions but this is opening up a whole new way of training so I have alot of changes to deal with.:o

-js

daveryanwyoming said:

Frankly I'm not much of a fan of mix and match workouts. If I go out to ride VO2 Max(L5) then that's the focus for my workout: warmup, 5x5 or 8x3 or whatever, ride L1/L2- between efforts then cooldown. I find I can focus my efforts better that way than doing Tempo or SST along with my hard work. If I want to do both in the same day then I'll do the harder workout in the morning and the easier that evening with plenty of mental and physical regrouping between the efforts. Just my 2 cents, obviously your coach works on a different theory.

You've obviously got to scale the power to your own FTP and since you're just getting started with L4 work you'll probably need to start with shorter efforts like the 12 minute efforts you describe. Just make sure they're at least 10 minutes long and as steady as you can do them. You should probably work the very low end of L4(or the high end of SST) for a couple of weeks before launching into solid L4 work. It'll help you get the pacing and power dialed in and get your body used to long interval work. I fall back to SST quite often and it hasn't hindered my FTP progress and is a great way to build CTL and to avoid overtraining while still getting good hard work.

That sounds like L6 anaerobic hill intervals. If the entire loop takes 5 minutes I assume you're sprinting the hill for 1.5 to 2.5 minutes per lap. If you hit this as hard as you can then it falls into L6 work. If the hill is less than 30 seconds long and you hit it as hard as you can then it's L7 work.

Basically you can look at training levels in terms of duration as well as power assuming you hold your best steady power for the duration. It breaks down like this based on the fuels you're burning:

- L7, neuromuscular sprints fueled by phosphocreatine; 5-30 seconds
- L6, anaerobic tolerance fueled by glycogen&lactate without O2, 30 seconds - 2.5 minutes
- L5, VO2 max fueled by O2, glycogen, lactate, 2.5 - 8 minutes
- L4, L3,L2,L1, Threshold fueled by O2, glycogen, lactate & fat(higher % fat/lower lactate at lower levels), >8 minutes

Each of these trains a different metabolic process so it's important to target those most suited to your events or long term development and it's important to hit at least the minimum duration for each system you want to train. There's overlap between adjacent systems and relationships like the way VO2 max sets a theoretical limit for aerobic performance or your "aerobic ceiling" so it helps to keep pushing that up especially after you realize a lot of gains in FTP.

-Dave

jsirabella said:

...Do you feel right now I should focus on SST/L4 work before doing any sort of L5/6/7?

That's what I'd do. It's a tradeoff since you're starting this midseason. Ideally you'd spend your winter and early spring doing L4, SST and Tempo(L3) work to build both FTP and CTL. Then as the racing season approaches you'd add L5 and L6 work. Some folks advocate L7 sprint work year round (Lemond for instance pushed this) others only do it as the racing season approaches. But since you're in your season and playing catchup you'll probably get advice to do L5 and L6 work to help you survive your crits. It comes down to your goals and whether you have a short or long term view. Bringing your FTP up will help a lot but may or may not give you the speed you need to hang with other guys who've been building both aerobic and anaerobic fitness all season. But in general I'd advise folks to build their core aerobic fitness(L4 and below) before hitting the hard short stuff but that's the long view. This is a really good discussion to have with your coach.

Quoted post said:

...Do you feel the following would be a good SST/L4 ride?...Warmup, 15min, Ride 5 min 100%, Ride, 9 min rest, 2 or 3 X 12 min, 88-94%, ride +105rpm, 2 min rest int 5 X 1 min. 85-95%, cool down...

Sounds great, I personally wouldn't do the 1 minute efforts at the end. I'd save that motivation and energy for whatever I had planned the next day but that's just the way I like to focus my efforts. I think Hunter advocates something like you described and I'm sure he gets really good results that way. There are a lot of ways to approach this stuff....

Quoted post said:

...Also when do you know you can move out of the SST/L4 and than go to L4? Also when do you start to work in the L5-7?

Move up to pure L4 work when the SST feels too easy or you're really motivated to find out what you can do for your longer intervals. Drop back to SST when you're more tired than usual, less motivated or having trouble completing L4 repeats. When you drop back to SST try to make the intervals longer so maybe 25-30 minutes at 85-90% instead of 15-20 minutes at 95-100%. Same goes for adjusting training levels, you don't need formal tests very often, bump the levels up when they start feeling easy but be aware that you might need to drop back to SST after raising your training levels since you won't feel 100% everytime you train.

Quoted post said:

...What type of cadence should you keep during this level as I would like to work during the ints at higher gears.

In general cadence is secondary to getting the power levels right but especially for someone focused on crits and getting used to speed it's helpful to work the high end of your cadence range while producing SST, L4 and L5 power. One possibility is to mix it up a bit wrt cadence. Do one of your long efforts at 100+ rpm and the next one at self selected or 80-85 rpm to get used to producing power at a variety of leg speeds.

Quoted post said:

... Once passed the SST/L4, which levels would be best for the crit I was thinking of racing?

Don't get too far ahead of yourself, but you might try the hour of power L4 workout or a variation of it for crits. It'll help you get used to repetitive accellerations while still holding threshold power overall. I sometimes do a scaled down version I call "tempo with a twist" it's basically the same as Bill Black's workout described in the book but I ride a Tempo pace between 10 second bursts every minute or two. It's a bit easier mentally and I can do it longer but it still averages to L4 overall.

Quoted post said:

...On a way different note I was reading procycling and they say guys with "big engines" have VO2 Max of 80? What does that mean?

VO2 Max is typically measured in units of ml/kg/min or how many milliliters of O2 an athlete uses per minute normalized for their body weight. 80 is a big number and 90 or above is world class. An accurate VO2 max test requires special breathing apparatus and is generally done on a bike ergometer in a lab. There are ways to estimate it based on your best 4 or 5 minute power but those are just estimates. I had tests done years ago but never really found a good use for the resulting number. It's interesting (and generally depressing) to know your VO2 Max but not all that useful in terms of planning your training.

-Dave

Hi Dave,

I can see what you mean that you can get addicted to the software as it has so many more options than Power Agent. I really love the feature of selecting a given range and getting all the stats for the selected range. Real nice and the feature while a little depressing of generating the power chart is very cool. Atleast now my 5 min bar has entered into the cat 5 level! I guess be happy for small victories.

I took your advice and did the workout above and feel great about it. I could see how this SST/L4 can really push you and set a good base. The only thing is that the park is made up of pretty much rolling hills so to keep my avergae watts high I have to keep shifting gears to try and make sure it stays up for the interval.

I did the workout above but could not work in the 1 minute quickspins as I was pretty much spent by that point. I was surprised though how fast the time goes by with this method as now it is like doing a set in the gym and they just add up quickly.

I try to stay focused but every so often ego gets the best of you and you push yourself to hard as you get tired of being a punching bag for some other riders. I feel guilty but it felt good to at the end of my last interval sprint hard when I guy was trying to use me as a measuring pole for his own sprint up the hill, toasted him....like in the gym got to feed the ego sometimes..😄

But trying to make sure the average watts is constant is hard in rolling hills but I am trying to just shift gears but keep cadense the same to compensate and now hard sprints ... atleast not too many 😄

I am thinking for tomorrow same workout but lower in the SST zone. By the way how do you handle recovery rides...do you track them and it is hard in this area to stay at such a low wattage.

-js

daveryanwyoming said:

That's what I'd do. It's a tradeoff since you're starting this midseason. Ideally you'd spend your winter and early spring doing L4, SST and Tempo(L3) work to build both FTP and CTL. Then as the racing season approaches you'd add L5 and L6 work. Some folks advocate L7 sprint work year round (Lemond for instance pushed this) others only do it as the racing season approaches. But since you're in your season and playing catchup you'll probably get advice to do L5 and L6 work to help you survive your crits. It comes down to your goals and whether you have a short or long term view. Bringing your FTP up will help a lot but may or may not give you the speed you need to hang with other guys who've been building both aerobic and anaerobic fitness all season. But in general I'd advise folks to build their core aerobic fitness(L4 and below) before hitting the hard short stuff but that's the long view. This is a really good discussion to have with your coach.
Sounds great, I personally wouldn't do the 1 minute efforts at the end. I'd save that motivation and energy for whatever I had planned the next day but that's just the way I like to focus my efforts. I think Hunter advocates something like you described and I'm sure he gets really good results that way. There are a lot of ways to approach this stuff....
Move up to pure L4 work when the SST feels too easy or you're really motivated to find out what you can do for your longer intervals. Drop back to SST when you're more tired than usual, less motivated or having trouble completing L4 repeats. When you drop back to SST try to make the intervals longer so maybe 25-30 minutes at 85-90% instead of 15-20 minutes at 95-100%. Same goes for adjusting training levels, you don't need formal tests very often, bump the levels up when they start feeling easy but be aware that you might need to drop back to SST after raising your training levels since you won't feel 100% everytime you train.
In general cadence is secondary to getting the power levels right but especially for someone focused on crits and getting used to speed it's helpful to work the high end of your cadence range while producing SST, L4 and L5 power. One possibility is to mix it up a bit wrt cadence. Do one of your long efforts at 100+ rpm and the next one at self selected or 80-85 rpm to get used to producing power at a variety of leg speeds.
Don't get too far ahead of yourself, but you might try the hour of power L4 workout or a variation of it for crits. It'll help you get used to repetitive accellerations while still holding threshold power overall. I sometimes do a scaled down version I call "tempo with a twist" it's basically the same as Bill Black's workout described in the book but I ride a Tempo pace between 10 second bursts every minute or two. It's a bit easier mentally and I can do it longer but it still averages to L4 overall.
VO2 Max is typically measured in units of ml/kg/min or how many milliliters of O2 an athlete uses per minute normalized for their body weight. 80 is a big number and 90 or above is world class. An accurate VO2 max test requires special breathing apparatus and is generally done on a bike ergometer in a lab. There are ways to estimate it based on your best 4 or 5 minute power but those are just estimates. I had tests done years ago but never really found a good use for the resulting number. It's interesting (and generally depressing) to know your VO2 Max but not all that useful in terms of planning your training.

-Dave

Hi Dave,

I can see what you mean that you can get addicted to the software as it has so many more options than Power Agent. I really love the feature of selecting a given range and getting all the stats for the selected range. Real nice and the feature while a little depressing of generating the power chart is very cool. Atleast now my 5 min bar has entered into the cat 5 level! I guess be happy for small victories.

I took your advice and did the workout above and feel great about it. I could see how this SST/L4 can really push you and set a good base. The only thing is that the park is made up of pretty much rolling hills so to keep my avergae watts high I have to keep shifting gears to try and make sure it stays up for the interval.

I did the workout above but could not work in the 1 minute quickspins as I was pretty much spent by that point. I was surprised though how fast the time goes by with this method as now it is like doing a set in the gym and they just add up quickly.

I try to stay focused but every so often ego gets the best of you and you push yourself to hard as you get tired of being a punching bag for some other riders. I feel guilty but it felt good to at the end of my last interval sprint hard when I guy was trying to use me as a measuring pole for his own sprint up the hill, toasted him....like in the gym got to feed the ego sometimes..😄

But trying to make sure the average watts is constant is hard in rolling hills but I am trying to just shift gears but keep cadense the same to compensate and now hard sprints ... atleast not too many 😄

I am thinking for tomorrow same workout but lower in the SST zone. By the way how do you handle recovery rides...do you track them and it is hard in this area to stay at such a low wattage.

-js

daveryanwyoming said:

That's what I'd do. It's a tradeoff since you're starting this midseason. Ideally you'd spend your winter and early spring doing L4, SST and Tempo(L3) work to build both FTP and CTL. Then as the racing season approaches you'd add L5 and L6 work. Some folks advocate L7 sprint work year round (Lemond for instance pushed this) others only do it as the racing season approaches. But since you're in your season and playing catchup you'll probably get advice to do L5 and L6 work to help you survive your crits. It comes down to your goals and whether you have a short or long term view. Bringing your FTP up will help a lot but may or may not give you the speed you need to hang with other guys who've been building both aerobic and anaerobic fitness all season. But in general I'd advise folks to build their core aerobic fitness(L4 and below) before hitting the hard short stuff but that's the long view. This is a really good discussion to have with your coach.
Sounds great, I personally wouldn't do the 1 minute efforts at the end. I'd save that motivation and energy for whatever I had planned the next day but that's just the way I like to focus my efforts. I think Hunter advocates something like you described and I'm sure he gets really good results that way. There are a lot of ways to approach this stuff....
Move up to pure L4 work when the SST feels too easy or you're really motivated to find out what you can do for your longer intervals. Drop back to SST when you're more tired than usual, less motivated or having trouble completing L4 repeats. When you drop back to SST try to make the intervals longer so maybe 25-30 minutes at 85-90% instead of 15-20 minutes at 95-100%. Same goes for adjusting training levels, you don't need formal tests very often, bump the levels up when they start feeling easy but be aware that you might need to drop back to SST after raising your training levels since you won't feel 100% everytime you train.
In general cadence is secondary to getting the power levels right but especially for someone focused on crits and getting used to speed it's helpful to work the high end of your cadence range while producing SST, L4 and L5 power. One possibility is to mix it up a bit wrt cadence. Do one of your long efforts at 100+ rpm and the next one at self selected or 80-85 rpm to get used to producing power at a variety of leg speeds.
Don't get too far ahead of yourself, but you might try the hour of power L4 workout or a variation of it for crits. It'll help you get used to repetitive accellerations while still holding threshold power overall. I sometimes do a scaled down version I call "tempo with a twist" it's basically the same as Bill Black's workout described in the book but I ride a Tempo pace between 10 second bursts every minute or two. It's a bit easier mentally and I can do it longer but it still averages to L4 overall.
VO2 Max is typically measured in units of ml/kg/min or how many milliliters of O2 an athlete uses per minute normalized for their body weight. 80 is a big number and 90 or above is world class. An accurate VO2 max test requires special breathing apparatus and is generally done on a bike ergometer in a lab. There are ways to estimate it based on your best 4 or 5 minute power but those are just estimates. I had tests done years ago but never really found a good use for the resulting number. It's interesting (and generally depressing) to know your VO2 Max but not all that useful in terms of planning your training.

-Dave

As I have been training with the downloaded 250 ftp workout I got from training peaks and with alot of advice from you all and Dave I wanted to post my latest numbers since I finished the workout and did an ftp test today.

Last two weeks I had to do a lot of my training on an electronic trainer in the gym because of the weather and it was tougher than I thought. I was really pushing myself and saw last weekend I was hitting good numbers on the trainer by looking at its watts read out and my hrm.

I gave myself one day complete rest and yesterday I did a temp ride on the trainer to keep the legs fresh so today when I did my ftp test it would be solid. When I got on the bike this morning I was a little worried as I had not riddem it in a while and it felt a little strange as I was using my CX bike now for commuting to work. Anyway I wanted to do everything by the numbers...so I took out my book and wrote down all the nubers I wanted to hit.

1) 20 minute warmup

2) 1 min on 1 min off 100 rpm

3) 5 min, 160 watts

4) *** 5 min all out V02 max, I did not want to go crazy here. I saw in a previous thread people were putting so much into these 5 minute interval that it burnt them out for the meat and potato, 20 minute interval. While I did put more in than I think I should I hit the following numbers. NP = 280 VI= 1.08 and AVG Watts = 258. I feel this hit my goal of about 275 watts as I did not want to go more than 1.1 X my ftp of 250.

5) 10 min, 160 watts

6) Now the meat and potatos, I honestly did not feel I was at 100% because the bike did feel a little strange but I said I am here now and it is time so just give it everything. I decided I was refusing to spin too much in lower gears and stay in the the 13 or higher and just keep pushing and not focus as much on the cadence today. My numbers were as follows NP = 287, VI = 1.17 and Avg Watts = 245.

So what do you folks think? What do you think my ftp is based upon these numbers. You folks can be tough on me, I will not give up. The last time Dave told me that I am at about a 250 based upon the numbers. I will do another test next week as I feel I can get it even a bit higher. Do you think I was able to get to my goal of 260 or not?

Whatever the answer, thanks again to Dave for all his advice and help and also to folks like Eden and all the other folks who have posted to my questions. I hope Dave does not mind as I also sent him an email but thought a good thank you should go out to him and everyone else who has posted to me before.

Ciao

-Js

I think the reason for doing the 5 minute effort all-out is to get rid of any initial freshness, so that the 20 minute effort is more representative of your FTP. If you take it easy on the 5 minute effort you may be overestimating your FTP based on the results of the 20 minute test. I find that 10 minutes of easy spinning is plenty to get ready for the 20 minute effort. The 20 minute test is much easier mentally after suffering through an all out 5 minute effort.
What do you mean by pushing the 13 gear? Do you mean big ring front, 13 tooth on the rear cassete? Or the 13th gear combo (big ring front, 3rd lowest gear rear)?

Hi Strader,

I held back a bit on the 5 minute but I still definitely got the webs cleaned out from it. I just did not do it in like a 53 X 13 or harder. I was using like the 53 X 18? to do it and spinning at a bit faster than 90 cadence. Also Central Park is one big circle cut in two at 72nd street so you can do a smaller easier course. I do my warmup through the 5 minute effort in this circle. I than use the 10 minutes to get to the bottom of the largest hill in the park and start my effort from that bottom. I pretty much finish the test on passing this hill 2nd time and hitting the second one soon thereafter.

Yes I mean 53 X 13 or harder throughout the 20 minute effort even on the hills to really push myself.

I really felt the test was a good one also because when I went into my file and selected my 20 minute peak it matched exactly...my 5 minute peak though was within my 20 minute and not my 5 minute interval.

Dave already wrote me that is a disaster waiting to happen as I did not pace myself correctly. He was dead on when I looked at the file, I started the 20 minute with too much effort and should have paced better to finish better.

Also I did not know but he is more of a fan of the Monod CP test if doing a one day test...I am going to try and it than get the AWC vs. CP results. Sounds very interesting and itching to see results...

-Js

strader said:

I think the reason for doing the 5 minute effort all-out is to get rid of any initial freshness, so that the 20 minute effort is more representative of your FTP. If you take it easy on the 5 minute effort you may be overestimating your FTP based on the results of the 20 minute test. I find that 10 minutes of easy spinning is plenty to get ready for the 20 minute effort. The 20 minute test is much easier mentally after suffering through an all out 5 minute effort.
What do you mean by pushing the 13 gear? Do you mean big ring front, 13 tooth on the rear cassete? Or the 13th gear combo (big ring front, 3rd lowest gear rear)?