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Segway sharing bike lanes! Proposed law in NY

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Road Cycling
Published
16 August 2007
Last activity
18 August 2007
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dgk
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  1. I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    down for me.

    From Newsday, original article:
    http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stsegw165333845aug16,0,4479510.story

    For those that don't like links:

    ALBANY - Gov. Eliot Spitzer vetoed a measure yesterday that would have
    allowed Segways in bike lanes, park trails and road shoulders, just
    like bicycles.

    The two-wheeled, self-balancing scooters are permitted only on private
    property because they are considered motor vehicles that lack the turn
    signals or windshields required for use on roads.

    The governor vetoed the bill because Segways and bicycles are too
    different to be used in similar places, and allowing Segways on roads
    would cause a "number of public safety issues," a state source said.
    The governor's office noted that the Segway owner's manual says it is
    not intended for use on roads.

    The legislation, sponsored by Sen. Owen Johnson (R-West Babylon), was
    opposed by a wide range of groups, including the American Automobile
    Association, New York Public Interest Research Group and the New York
    Conference of Mayors. The groups said they were concerned that it
    would result in having Segways on sidewalks and in other
    pedestrian-only zones, as original legislation introduced in 2002
    attempted. The bill would have permitted individual localities to
    decide whether they wanted the devices on sidewalks.

    Johnson first met the Segway's creator, Dean Kamen, originally from
    Rockville Centre, 10 years ago, when Kamen helped set up a
    school-business partnership involving robotics. Johnson said he found
    the Segway easy to use. "It's something that would be very useful in
    suburban areas," he said. "You can go get a bottle of milk without
    using a gallon of gasoline," he said.

    New York City police use 10 of the devices to patrol parks, beaches
    and stadiums, and the City of Long Beach bought two to monitor the
    boardwalk.

    Segway insists its products are suited for close-to-home, one-person
    trips that the federal Environmental Protection Agency estimates make
    up almost half of the 900 million car trips Americans take each year.
    The American Lung Association was not convinced the device would be
    used instead of automobiles. "For years the state has encouraged New
    Yorkers to reduce vehicle miles traveled by walking, taking mass
    transit or car pooling," Michael Seilback, senior director of public
    policy for the American Lung Association of New York State. "This bill
    is about providing people with an alternative to walking."

    Formula One Motor Sports dealer Peter Joseph sells about 10 to 15
    Segways a month in Oakdale. He said most of his customers are middle
    or upper class, and in their late 30s. "It's something they see and
    they want to take part in it," he said, adding that he also sells many
    for warehouse managers.

    The bill, which had been kicking around the legislature for five years
    but had yet to reach the governor's desk before this year, passed the
    Senate 55-6 and the Assembly 100-30, which would be enough to override
    the veto.

    More articles

    Copyright © 2007, Newsday Inc.

  2. dgk said:

    I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    down for me.


    We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?

    I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of [censored] from drivers who think
    cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
    next one down the line?

    Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
    "cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.

    Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem. Segway has
    flopped, aside from a niche market. The only one I've seen in the past
    year was ridden by a woman with a prosthetic leg. She loved the thing,
    since it allowed her the kind of mobility she lost when she lost the
    leg. But even an army of Segways on the roads would be a lot better
    than the damn swarm of giant SUVs we now have.

    I do doubt that such a machine could replace a significant amount of car
    traffic. The claims about most car trips being only close-to-home is
    patently false for most suburban developments, since there is literally
    no place to go that is close to home, except for other homes that look
    just like yours. Most car trips are beyond the distance many people
    would tolerate at 12mph or less, so the Segway is no more attractive to
    these people than a bike would be. Besides, on one of them you are not
    isolated from the rest of the world by a steel and glass cage, which is
    a big part of the appeal of automobiles.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
    conclusion.
    -- George Bernard Shaw

  3. David L. Johnson said:
    dgk said:

    I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    down for me.


    We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?

    I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of [censored] from drivers who think
    cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
    next one down the line?

    Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
    "cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.

    Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem. Segway has
    flopped, aside from a niche market. The only one I've seen in the past
    year was ridden by a woman with a prosthetic leg. She loved the thing,
    since it allowed her the kind of mobility she lost when she lost the
    leg. But even an army of Segways on the roads would be a lot better
    than the damn swarm of giant SUVs we now have.

    I do doubt that such a machine could replace a significant amount of car
    traffic. The claims about most car trips being only close-to-home is
    patently false for most suburban developments, since there is literally
    no place to go that is close to home, except for other homes that look
    just like yours. Most car trips are beyond the distance many people
    would tolerate at 12mph or less, so the Segway is no more attractive to
    these people than a bike would be. Besides, on one of them you are not
    isolated from the rest of the world by a steel and glass cage, which is
    a big part of the appeal of automobiles.

    So you don't think that it's a bad precedent to allow motorized
    vehicles in bike lanes? Also, the top speed is 12.5 mph. I'm pretty
    pokey as it goes, averaging around 11mph or so, but I'm often moving
    faster than 12.5 and really don't need other things that I have to get
    around.

    It's not automatic that they shouldn't be allowed and I can see
    arguments for it (ie, anything that gets folks out of cars) but these
    offer no exercise benefits nor can they carry much. As for the
    article, I don't know how someone is going to get a gallon of milk
    home on one. I just put it in my bike rack.

  4. David L. Johnson said:


    Quoted message said:


    We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?

    I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of [censored] from drivers who think
    cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
    next one down the line?

    ...

    Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
    as far as I am concerned.

  5. catzz66 said:
    David L. Johnson said:


    Quoted message said:


    We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?

    I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of [censored] from drivers who think
    cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
    next one down the line?

    ...

    Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
    as far as I am concerned.

    I kinda doubt it's even worth worrying about.

    They still cost way too much for most people to even consider buying,
    and most of the photos I've seen of Segways was a bunch of silicon
    valley billionaires playing polo somewhere near Redmond.
    ~

  6. catzz66 said:
    David L. Johnson said:

    We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?

    Quoted message said:

    I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of [censored] from drivers who think
    cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
    next one down the line?

    Quoted message said:

    ...

    Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
    as far as I am concerned.

    Huh? Bike lanes usually exist because of speed differences between
    certain types of vehicles, not because cyclists need moral
    exclusivity. Segways are just fine on the paths, as are motorized
    wheelchairs and scooters for folks that can't walk. Doesn't chap my
    ass one bit. Heck, back in Gothenburg they allowed mopeds under 50cc
    on the bike roads and nobody seemed to get steamed.

  7. dgk said:

    I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    down for me.

    From Newsday, original article:
    http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stsegw165333845aug16,0,4479510.story

    It's been awhile since I read the tech. specs of a segway, but don't
    they top out at like 12 mph or something like that?

  8. landotter said:


    Quoted message said:


    Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
    as far as I am concerned.

    Huh? Bike lanes usually exist because of speed differences between
    certain types of vehicles, not because cyclists need moral
    exclusivity. Segways are just fine on the paths, as are motorized
    wheelchairs and scooters for folks that can't walk. Doesn't chap my
    ass one bit. Heck, back in Gothenburg they allowed mopeds under 50cc
    on the bike roads and nobody seemed to get steamed.

    Wheelchairs and scooters for the handicapped ought to be excepted from
    any bike lane prohibitions as far as I am concerned, but we're talking
    about Segways. The laws probably vary widely as to what is considered a
    motorized vehicle and where it may be legally operated. The original
    premise is a moot point for me anyway. I live in a very large city with
    lots of multiple use paths, but no bike lanes to speak of.

  9. David L. Johnson said:

    But even an army of Segways on the roads would be a lot better
    than the damn swarm of giant SUVs we now have.

    I think that's the rub. Bicyclists are generally welcomed
    because they replace a car. But does a Segway replace a
    car... or a pedestrian ?

  10. "DougC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    catzz66 said:
    David L. Johnson said:


    >
    We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can we?

    I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of [censored] from drivers who think
    cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
    next one down the line?

    ...

    Well, they are motorized. That's reason enough for them to be excluded,
    as far as I am concerned.

    I kinda doubt it's even worth worrying about.

    They still cost way too much for most people to even consider buying, and
    most of the photos I've seen of Segways was a bunch of silicon valley
    billionaires playing polo somewhere near Redmond.
    ~

    The problem is not going to be with Segway's, but will be when the cheap
    clones start hitting the market. I've already seen one, they don't have
    the gyro balancing device but rather 2 smaller trailing wheels for balance.
    They sell for about 1/5 of what a Segway sells for.

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1433453,00.asp

    Wait until Walmart comes out with a Chinese version then they'll be
    everywhere, after Segway lobbies for allowing them in what's now restricted
    areas.

  11. David L. Johnson said:
    dgk said:

    I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    down for me.


    We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can
    we?
    I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of [censored] from drivers who think
    cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
    next one down the line?

    Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
    "cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.

    Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem.

    I'm with David. There are a couple of Segway users I see on the North Branch
    Trail (Chicago), and they don't cause any problems.

  12. dgk said:

    I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    down for me.

    Why should they be banned from bike lanes, park trails and road
    shoulders? Because they are slow? So are many cyclists. Because they
    are too wide? Unfortunately, so are many cyclists. Because they have
    an electric motor? Nowhere I know of bans bikes with electric "assist"
    motors from using those facilities. Because they are non-utilitarian
    toys? Many people think that about bikes. You seem to be saying that
    bike lanes, park trails and road shoulders are "our" roads. Are you
    sure you want to carry that to its logical conclusion, that bikes
    don't belong anywhere *except* those facilities?

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt

  13. Mike Kruger said:
    David L. Johnson said:
    dgk said:

    I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    down for me.


    We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can
    we?
    I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of [censored] from drivers who think
    cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
    next one down the line?

    Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
    "cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.

    Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem.

    I'm with David. There are a couple of Segway users I see on the North Branch
    Trail (Chicago), and they don't cause any problems.


    I think sidewalk users are more tolerant of Segways than bicycles or
    skateboards on sidewalks. AFAIK, Segways are legal on sidewalks and
    FMUPs everywhere. The possible speed differential makes them a hazard
    for ambulatory folk.

    Skaters and boarders are permitted to use Vancouver's streets.
    They're not relegated to bike lanes though they do use them.

    A Segway takes up less room than a skater and is more predictable
    than a boarder so therefore is easier to pass.

    I see no problem adding them to traffic in bike lanes.
    Give 'em the door zone.
    --
    zk

  14. Road Dog said:
    David L. Johnson said:

    But even an army of Segways on the roads would be a lot better
    than the damn swarm of giant SUVs we now have.

    I think that's the rub. Bicyclists are generally welcomed
    because they replace a car. But does a Segway replace a
    car... or a pedestrian ?

    Where are you that bicyclists are "welcomed because they replace a
    car"? The usual attitude toward bikes of most non-cyclists in my area
    is a grudging acceptance as long as we don't delay them more than
    momentarily. "Welcomed" would be a bit of an overstatement.

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt

  15. Bob said:

    Why should they be banned from bike lanes, park trails and road
    shoulders? Because they are slow? So are many cyclists. Because they
    are too wide? Unfortunately, so are many cyclists. Because they have
    an electric motor? Nowhere I know of bans bikes with electric "assist"
    motors from using those facilities. Because they are non-utilitarian
    toys? Many people think that about bikes. You seem to be saying that
    bike lanes, park trails and road shoulders are "our" roads. Are you
    sure you want to carry that to its logical conclusion, that bikes
    don't belong anywhere *except* those facilities?

    Excellent rationale for abolishing bike lanes.

    Wayne

  16. Bob said:


    Where are you that bicyclists are "welcomed because they replace a
    car"? The usual attitude toward bikes of most non-cyclists in my area
    is a grudging acceptance as long as we don't delay them more than
    momentarily. "Welcomed" would be a bit of an overstatement.

    I'm sorry that autos don't treat you so well where you are.
    When I say they are welcomed, that is my experience and my
    opinion, not an overstatement.

  17. dgk said:

    I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    down for me.

    From Newsday, original article:
    http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stsegw165333845aug16,0,4479510.story

    For those that don't like links:

    ALBANY - Gov. Eliot Spitzer vetoed a measure yesterday that would have
    allowed Segways in bike lanes, park trails and road shoulders, just
    like bicycles.

    <snip>

    Segway tried to get permission to be used on multi-use trails in my
    area, but was turned down.

    "http://losgatosobserver.com/los-gatos/Article.php?article_id=0143"

    While philosophically I agree with the ban, I don't think it's a big
    deal. First, there are very few Segways around. Second, the Segway
    riders I've seen ride in a predictable manner, staying to the right,
    something that can't be said of pedestrians that string out across the
    whole trail blocking cyclists in both directions. Banning commercial
    tours with the Segway is a good idea though.

    See:
    "Segway scooter user group folds due to lack of interest"
    "http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/08/08/financial/f161626D82.DTL&feed=rss.news"

  18. Zoot Katz said:

    On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:53:25 GMT, "Mike Kruger"

    Quoted message said:
    David L. Johnson said:

    dgk wrote:
    > I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    > runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    > down for me.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    We certainly can't allow "them" to use our roads and paths, now, can
    we?
    I'm tired of getting exactly this kind of [censored] from drivers who think
    cyclists don't belong on the roads. So, now we vent the same on the
    next one down the line?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sure, they are different, and will cause traffic problems. Bikes
    "cause" traffic problems for cars, but we expect them to deal with it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Frankly, I don't think this is going to be a big problem.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm with David. There are a couple of Segway users I see on the North Branch
    Trail (Chicago), and they don't cause any problems.

    I think sidewalk users are more tolerant of Segways than bicycles or
    skateboards on sidewalks. AFAIK, Segways are legal on sidewalks and
    FMUPs everywhere. The possible speed differential makes them a hazard
    for ambulatory folk.

    Skaters and boarders are permitted to use Vancouver's streets.
    They're not relegated to bike lanes though they do use them.

    A Segway takes up less room than a skater and is more predictable
    than a boarder so therefore is easier to pass.

    I see no problem adding them to traffic in bike lanes.
    Give 'em the door zone.
    --
    zk

    In my state bicycles are supposed to stay of the sidewalks
    because they are vehicles, which makes sense to me. Segways should
    probably be classified as motor vehicles and be allowed on the streets
    if they are registered, insured, inspected and operated by a licensed
    individual. They certainly shouldn't be allowed on the sidewalks. We
    don't have enough bike lanes for segways to even be an issue.

    Eric

  19. Road Dog said:
    Bob said:


    Where are you that bicyclists are "welcomed because they replace a
    car"? The usual attitude toward bikes of most non-cyclists in my area
    is a grudging acceptance as long as we don't delay them more than
    momentarily. "Welcomed" would be a bit of an overstatement.

    I'm sorry that autos don't treat you so well where you are.
    When I say they are welcomed, that is my experience and my
    opinion, not an overstatement.

    You didn't identify where you were. Bob's writing from the Chicago area (as
    am I) and it would use the term "tolerated" rather than "welcomed".

    Of course, maybe it's just perception. Claire, for example, thinks motorists
    are often congratulating us for being one with the road (NSFW):

    http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/road.html

  20. Bob Hunt said:
    dgk said:

    I'm calling my reps today to oppose this; I have enough [censored] from
    runners and skaters. Of course, perhaps the Segways will mow a few
    down for me.

    Why should they be banned from bike lanes, park trails and road
    shoulders? Because they are slow? So are many cyclists. Because they
    are too wide?...

    Gee Bob, I though you were against anything wide using the trails.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    BEER IS FOOD

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

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