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Lux Rebel has issues........

Started by Crescentius Vespasianus · · Last activity · 16 posts · 545 views

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Cycling Equipment
Published
18 August 2007
Last activity
18 September 2007
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Crescentius Vespasianus
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  1. For those of you who are waiting for the
    Lux rebel (200 lumans) rollout in LED
    lights, they are having some problems
    with them. Here's a thread I found on it.
    ---------
    I think you are giving the Lumiled
    morons way too much credit.

    First they take the time to push the
    state of the art up to new highs in
    lumens/watt then package the Rebel in
    this CRAPPY little poorly designed
    asymmetric package.

    The heat pad, that everyone is so
    worried about is not only TINY, it
    doesn't even cover the area that it
    could on the bottom of the package! Gee,
    that seems pretty stupid, doesn't it?

    The electrical connection pads are also
    quite TINY considering the 700mA to 1A
    of current that you could be pushing
    through them. This is made worse by the
    fact that surface mount devices somtimes
    get placed a little off center, which
    would further reduce the contact area.
    Also, they are all the way over at the
    end of their cockeyed asymmetric
    package, with only these skinny little
    conductor tracks along the top of the
    package to connect to the die. At a time
    when others are adding additional bond
    wires to lower Vf, why increase the
    package resistance unnecessarily in this
    way? STUPID AGAIN!

    I can't think of a single reason for
    cockeyed little asymetric package (other
    than the fact that it's cheap to
    produce), unless the Lumiled folks,
    aware that CREE, and Soeul will be hot
    on their heels with higher output chips,
    figured that they would get clever and
    come up with this tiny little package
    that can be 'clustered' (so even if you
    can't push any more lumens out of the
    poor little rebel chip, you can just buy
    three or four and jam them together in a
    kind of Lumiled Cluster-F...).

    A square or only slightly rectangular
    package with about 20% more width than
    the current rebel's narrowest dimension,
    and with the emitter CENTERED and
    contacts at the ends would be at least
    as good thermally, and MUCH better for
    most LED flashlight applications, which
    use a SINGLE LED and where you have to
    fit the emitter up inside existing
    reflector designs.

    For those who do need to 'cluster' the
    rebel chips, or who already have
    automated production set up for the
    current design, Lumiled should obviously
    continue to offer them, but with many
    IC's and other semiconductor devices
    already available in multiple package
    types, I look forward to seeing the
    Rebel LED die offered in a more
    intelligently designed package.

    So, for the record; I have worked with
    the Rebels; Love the performance, HATE
    the packageing.
    ========
    i can think of a reason, because its not
    designed for a flashlight, it has a
    higher purpose in mind, one that doesnt
    use 1 light PER unit ?
    that fits behind LCD screens and takes
    100+ of them? that gets adopted into
    some manufactured products ? that can go
    into $4000 overpriced HDTVs? and it
    takes 400 of them? that goes into some
    goverment project, that breaks down
    after 4 uses.? would you believe jumbotrons?
    ========
    A LCD screen that uses 100 plus - 100
    Lumen LED's . . .

    I want one!

    Of course you might have to view this
    10,000 lumen monster using welding
    goggles, but that's a small price to pay
    to be on the cutting edge.

  2. "Crescentius Vespasianus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    For those of you who are waiting for the

    return of Clem Schnide!


  3. Quoted message said:

    It was obvious from the start that the design was flawed. The Cree and
    Seoul Semiconductor still embarrass the Luxeons. One advantage the Rebel
    has is that it can use existing reflectors designed for older generation
    LEDs. One has to actually worry about blinding oncoming traffic with these
    new LEDs.

    Still, very few people know about these new LEDs. Some people are amazed
    with old 5mm LEDs in terms of total output. Don't get me wrong, the 5mm's
    are very efficient at lower currents, but they can't handle the power.


    ========
    If they put these new generation LED's
    into bike lights, they might have to set
    them up with a high beam and a low beam,
    or they will blind on coming traffic. I
    just wish the bike light people,
    especially cateye would get with the
    current technology, their stuff is
    really old, and not much light. I guess
    I might just buy one of these
    flashlights and buy that twofish
    flashlight mount, and go that route. I
    know for a fact that would be much
    cheaper.

  4. Crescentius Vespasianus said:

    For those of you who are waiting for the
    Lux rebel (200 lumans) rollout in LED
    lights, they are having some problems
    with them. Here's a thread I found on it.

    It was obvious from the start that the design was flawed. The Cree and
    Seoul Semiconductor still embarrass the Luxeons. One advantage the Rebel
    has is that it can use existing reflectors designed for older generation
    LEDs. One has to actually worry about blinding oncoming traffic with these
    new LEDs.

    Still, very few people know about these new LEDs. Some people are amazed
    with old 5mm LEDs in terms of total output. Don't get me wrong, the 5mm's
    are very efficient at lower currents, but they can't handle the power.

    --
    Phil

  5. Crescentius Vespasianus said:
    Quoted message said:

    It was obvious from the start that the design was flawed. The Cree
    and Seoul Semiconductor still embarrass the Luxeons. One advantage
    the Rebel has is that it can use existing reflectors designed for
    older generation LEDs. One has to actually worry about blinding
    oncoming traffic with these new LEDs.

    Still, very few people know about these new LEDs. Some people are
    amazed with old 5mm LEDs in terms of total output. Don't get me
    wrong, the 5mm's are very efficient at lower currents, but they
    can't handle the power.


    ========
    If they put these new generation LED's
    into bike lights, they might have to set
    them up with a high beam and a low beam,
    or they will blind on coming traffic. I
    just wish the bike light people,
    especially cateye would get with the
    current technology, their stuff is
    really old, and not much light. I guess
    I might just buy one of these
    flashlights and buy that twofish
    flashlight mount, and go that route. I
    know for a fact that would be much
    cheaper.

    I highly recommend the Fenix L2D. It outclasses the $300-$500 units on a
    simple 2AA with a regulated current circuit. $50 each.

    --
    Phil

  6. Phil said:
    Crescentius Vespasianus said:
    Quoted message said:

    It was obvious from the start that the design was flawed. The Cree
    and Seoul Semiconductor still embarrass the Luxeons. One advantage
    the Rebel has is that it can use existing reflectors designed for
    older generation LEDs. One has to actually worry about blinding
    oncoming traffic with these new LEDs.

    Still, very few people know about these new LEDs. Some people are
    amazed with old 5mm LEDs in terms of total output. Don't get me
    wrong, the 5mm's are very efficient at lower currents, but they
    can't handle the power.


    ========
    If they put these new generation LED's
    into bike lights, they might have to set
    them up with a high beam and a low beam,
    or they will blind on coming traffic. I
    just wish the bike light people,
    especially cateye would get with the
    current technology, their stuff is
    really old, and not much light. I guess
    I might just buy one of these
    flashlights and buy that twofish
    flashlight mount, and go that route. I
    know for a fact that would be much
    cheaper.

    I highly recommend the Fenix L2D. It outclasses the $300-$500 units on a
    simple 2AA with a regulated current circuit. $50 each.


    I was thinking about getting that, some
    questions though.
    1. Do you use the twofish mount, and if
    so, does it work well?
    2. How is the throw, can you get spot
    out there, or does it just flood in
    front of the wheel?
    3. I assume you have the Cree, the CR-E
    Led. Is it hard to switch on and off
    while riding?

  7. On Aug 25, 2:19 am, Crescentius Vespasianus <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Phil said:
    Crescentius Vespasianus said:

    > It was obvious from the start that the design was flawed. The Cree
    > and Seoul Semiconductor still embarrass the Luxeons. One advantage
    > the Rebel has is that it can use existing reflectors designed for
    > older generation LEDs. One has to actually worry about blinding
    > oncoming traffic with these new LEDs.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Still, very few people know about these new LEDs. Some people are
    > amazed with old 5mm LEDs in terms of total output. Don't get me
    > wrong, the 5mm's are very efficient at lower currents, but they
    > can't handle the power.
    ========
    If they put these new generation LED's
    into bike lights, they might have to set
    them up with a high beam and a low beam,
    or they will blind on coming traffic. I
    just wish the bike light people,
    especially cateye would get with the
    current technology, their stuff is
    really old, and not much light. I guess
    I might just buy one of these
    flashlights and buy that twofish
    flashlight mount, and go that route. I
    know for a fact that would be much
    cheaper.

    Quoted message said:

    I highly recommend the Fenix L2D. It outclasses the $300-$500 units on a
    simple 2AA with a regulated current circuit. $50 each.

    I was thinking about getting that, some
    questions though.
    1. Do you use the twofish mount, and if
    so, does it work well?
    2. How is the throw, can you get spot
    out there, or does it just flood in
    front of the wheel?
    3. I assume you have the Cree, the CR-E
    Led. Is it hard to switch on and off
    while riding?

    I recently picked up some Ay Up lights, with Luxeon LEDs. They are
    just changing over to the Cree CREs and have offered existing
    customers a cheap upgrade. It will be interesting to compare them,
    when they arrive. In my shopping, it seemed like a nice product at a
    good price, and has turned out that way. www.ayup.com.au

    Donga

  8. Donga said:

    On Aug 25, 2:19 am, Crescentius Vespasianus <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Phil said:

    Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
    >> It was obvious from the start that the design was flawed. The Cree
    >> and Seoul Semiconductor still embarrass the Luxeons. One advantage
    >> the Rebel has is that it can use existing reflectors designed for
    >> older generation LEDs. One has to actually worry about blinding
    >> oncoming traffic with these new LEDs.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> Still, very few people know about these new LEDs. Some people are
    >> amazed with old 5mm LEDs in terms of total output. Don't get me
    >> wrong, the 5mm's are very efficient at lower currents, but they
    >> can't handle the power.
    > ========
    > If they put these new generation LED's
    > into bike lights, they might have to set
    > them up with a high beam and a low beam,
    > or they will blind on coming traffic. I
    > just wish the bike light people,
    > especially cateye would get with the
    > current technology, their stuff is
    > really old, and not much light. I guess
    > I might just buy one of these
    > flashlights and buy that twofish
    > flashlight mount, and go that route. I
    > know for a fact that would be much
    > cheaper.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I highly recommend the Fenix L2D. It outclasses the $300-$500 units on a
    simple 2AA with a regulated current circuit. $50 each.

    Quoted message said:

    I was thinking about getting that, some
    questions though.
    1. Do you use the twofish mount, and if
    so, does it work well?
    2. How is the throw, can you get spot
    out there, or does it just flood in
    front of the wheel?
    3. I assume you have the Cree, the CR-E
    Led. Is it hard to switch on and off
    while riding?

    I recently picked up some Ay Up lights, with Luxeon LEDs. They are
    just changing over to the Cree CREs and have offered existing
    customers a cheap upgrade. It will be interesting to compare them,
    when they arrive. In my shopping, it seemed like a nice product at a
    good price, and has turned out that way.www.ayup.com.au

    Donga

    That was XREs, sorry.

  9. A little less of the Luxeon product line is vaporware. I received my
    Rebels to play with - four LXML-PWC1-0040 as test subjects and ten
    LXML-PWC1-0090 for the real project. They're rather pricey so that's
    all I'm buying for now.

    The web site really doesn't give you an idea of how tiny these LEDs are.
    They are an extremely intense point of light that actually stings your
    finger like sunshine from a magnifying glass. They're crazy bright.

    The K2 heatsink was a disaster so I was a bit skeptical about the odd
    Rebel heatsink. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it works very
    well. You solder it to copper and the LED stays cool even when
    overdriven to 1A.

    I abused a 0040 by soldering it to a 1x1x.125 inch copper tab and
    driving it at 1A. After working well for a while it dimmed and
    unsoldered itself. It worked again when it cooled.

    The quality of the Rebel seems to be higher than the K2. I ordered
    about 30 K2s for projects and all were extremely off electrical spec and
    some had bubbles in the lenses. So far the Rebels meet their electrical
    specs and seem to be free of defects. Forward voltage is very stable
    and consistent.

    I used the 0040 LEDs to experiment with hobbyist soldering options. I'd
    love to solder these to a thin film PCB and glue that to an aluminum
    heatsink but I can't find thin film PCBs for public sale 🙁 You can't
    simply solder these to the edge of a copper bar because they'll float
    away as soon as the solder melts. I found two options that work. You
    can drill 4 small holes in the heatsink around the thermal pad contact
    area. Excess solder flows into these holes and surface tension centers
    the LED. Another option is a tiny dab of silicone glue on the exposed
    ceramic area. Hang the power tabs over the edge of the heatsink so you
    can solder on wires.

    The tiny size of the Rebel begs for them to be built into ultra-compact
    flashlights. I wouldn't think of them as 3W LEDs because they're too
    inefficient at that point. If you have that much room for a heatsink
    then you might as well use bigger LEDs. Think of them as 1W LEDs that
    can be momentarily driven to 3.5W when you need an emergency boost.

    So the project now -

    I'm using a switching regulator based on the LM2679 and a Zetex current
    sensor chip to drive 10 LXML-PWC1-0090 Rebels into 18mm lenses. The
    idea is that the tiny size of the Rebel lets me run many LEDs at an
    efficient current rather than a few large LEDs at an inefficient
    current. My goal is 1W to 10W for normal operation and momentary
    capability to 40W. Dimming will use voltage feedback at low power and
    current feedback at high power. I got a prototype power supply running
    very well before I dropped it and bent $50 in surface mount power
    components. All the copper parts are cut for the real thing. I still
    need a few electrical parts and a thermally conductive body. Carbon
    fiber with a pyrolytic graphite sheet liner might do the trick. The
    final size should be around 6x2.5x1.5 inches. Input power will be 9V to
    40V DC.

    Until this project is done, my K2 (LXK2-PW14-U00) bike light works quite
    well. The new project is half for fun and half to create a light that
    can be hand-held too.

  10. Crescentius Vespasianus said:
    Phil said:
    Crescentius Vespasianus said:

    > It was obvious from the start that the design was flawed. The Cree
    > and Seoul Semiconductor still embarrass the Luxeons. One advantage
    > the Rebel has is that it can use existing reflectors designed for
    > older generation LEDs. One has to actually worry about blinding
    > oncoming traffic with these new LEDs.
    >
    > Still, very few people know about these new LEDs. Some people are
    > amazed with old 5mm LEDs in terms of total output. Don't get me
    > wrong, the 5mm's are very efficient at lower currents, but they
    > can't handle the power.
    ========
    If they put these new generation LED's
    into bike lights, they might have to set
    them up with a high beam and a low beam,
    or they will blind on coming traffic. I
    just wish the bike light people,
    especially cateye would get with the
    current technology, their stuff is
    really old, and not much light. I guess
    I might just buy one of these
    flashlights and buy that twofish
    flashlight mount, and go that route. I
    know for a fact that would be much
    cheaper.

    I highly recommend the Fenix L2D. It outclasses the $300-$500 units
    on a simple 2AA with a regulated current circuit. $50 each.


    I was thinking about getting that, some
    questions though.
    1. Do you use the twofish mount, and if
    so, does it work well?

    I think I have one but never used it. Looks pretty robust.

    Quoted message said:

    2. How is the throw, can you get spot
    out there, or does it just flood in
    front of the wheel?

    Flood with a good spot. Nonadjustable.

    Quoted message said:

    3. I assume you have the Cree, the CR-E
    Led. Is it hard to switch on and off
    while riding?

    Push-button, not hard at all.

    Check out the headlamp Princeton Tec EOS Cree/Seoul mod. I use it for night
    riding in dark areas.

    --
    Phil

  11. Kevin McMurtrie said:

    A little less of the Luxeon product line is vaporware. I received my
    Rebels to play with - four LXML-PWC1-0040 as test subjects and ten
    LXML-PWC1-0090 for the real project. They're rather pricey so that's
    all I'm buying for now.

    The web site really doesn't give you an idea of how tiny these LEDs
    are. They are an extremely intense point of light that actually
    stings your finger like sunshine from a magnifying glass. They're
    crazy bright.

    The K2 heatsink was a disaster so I was a bit skeptical about the odd
    Rebel heatsink. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it works very
    well. You solder it to copper and the LED stays cool even when
    overdriven to 1A.

    I abused a 0040 by soldering it to a 1x1x.125 inch copper tab and
    driving it at 1A. After working well for a while it dimmed and
    unsoldered itself. It worked again when it cooled.

    The quality of the Rebel seems to be higher than the K2. I ordered
    about 30 K2s for projects and all were extremely off electrical spec
    and some had bubbles in the lenses. So far the Rebels meet their
    electrical specs and seem to be free of defects. Forward voltage is
    very stable and consistent.

    I used the 0040 LEDs to experiment with hobbyist soldering options.
    I'd love to solder these to a thin film PCB and glue that to an
    aluminum heatsink but I can't find thin film PCBs for public sale 🙁
    You can't simply solder these to the edge of a copper bar because
    they'll float away as soon as the solder melts. I found two options
    that work. You can drill 4 small holes in the heatsink around the
    thermal pad contact area. Excess solder flows into these holes and
    surface tension centers the LED. Another option is a tiny dab of
    silicone glue on the exposed ceramic area. Hang the power tabs over
    the edge of the heatsink so you can solder on wires.

    The tiny size of the Rebel begs for them to be built into
    ultra-compact flashlights. I wouldn't think of them as 3W LEDs
    because they're too inefficient at that point. If you have that much
    room for a heatsink then you might as well use bigger LEDs. Think of
    them as 1W LEDs that can be momentarily driven to 3.5W when you need
    an emergency boost.

    So the project now -

    I'm using a switching regulator based on the LM2679 and a Zetex
    current sensor chip to drive 10 LXML-PWC1-0090 Rebels into 18mm
    lenses. The idea is that the tiny size of the Rebel lets me run many
    LEDs at an efficient current rather than a few large LEDs at an
    inefficient current. My goal is 1W to 10W for normal operation and
    momentary capability to 40W. Dimming will use voltage feedback at
    low power and current feedback at high power. I got a prototype
    power supply running very well before I dropped it and bent $50 in
    surface mount power components. All the copper parts are cut for the
    real thing. I still need a few electrical parts and a thermally
    conductive body. Carbon fiber with a pyrolytic graphite sheet liner
    might do the trick. The final size should be around 6x2.5x1.5
    inches. Input power will be 9V to 40V DC.

    Until this project is done, my K2 (LXK2-PW14-U00) bike light works
    quite well. The new project is half for fun and half to create a
    light that can be hand-held too.

    The consumer products out right now from the far east are really kickin' it.
    Rebel 100s, etc. For me, I'm staying with the Crees at the moment. I've
    never been good with soldering and really don't want to bother with
    soldering more stars... Bare Rebels are probably ridiculous to handle as you
    say. I can only imagine.

    The die size of a Rebel is roughly the same (1mm^2) as the Cree/Seoul. The
    packaging is tiny though.

    Cree ran 1000 lumens through an R&D sample (4A@~3.7V) recently. I wonder
    when that will trickle down to consumer-grade stuff. Probably requires
    liquid nitrogen.

    --
    Phil

  12. Phil said:

    The consumer products out right now from the far east are really kickin' it.
    Rebel 100s, etc. For me, I'm staying with the Crees at the moment. I've
    never been good with soldering and really don't want to bother with
    soldering more stars... Bare Rebels are probably ridiculous to handle as you
    say. I can only imagine.

    The die size of a Rebel is roughly the same (1mm^2) as the Cree/Seoul. The
    packaging is tiny though.

    It's not just the heat dissipation that's an issue with these LEDs,
    though that's a very big issue, it's precisely positioning the LED in
    the reflector, something that's damn near impossible to do by hand. You
    end up with the same problem that plagues a lot of lights where you're
    not projecting a good beam because the lens and bulb (or LED) aren't
    well-matched. It's the main reason that the MR series of halogen bulbs
    was developed.

    I'm very pleased with the Fenix L2DCE (CE=Cree Edition) as a bicycle
    light. $53 plus the cost of a handlebar mount flashlight holder. It
    won't replace the lights on my commute bike, but it's more than
    sufficient as a light to move between bicycles.

    I recall a few years ago someone was espousing the virtues of LED
    lights, and one of the benefits he came up with was something like "no
    white hot filament." Obviously he didn't understand anything about
    semiconductor physics and junction current and temperatures (Tj).
    There's no free lunch here. There is heat, a lot of heat, to deal with
    in both LEDs and incandescent sources.

  13. Quoted message said:

    I'm very pleased with the Fenix L2DCE (CE=Cree Edition) as a bicycle
    light. $53 plus the cost of a handlebar mount flashlight holder. It
    won't replace the lights on my commute bike, but it's more than
    sufficient as a light to move between bicycles.

    I was considering getting a Fenix L2DCE myself, based on comments
    here. Can you say a bit more about what kind of commuting you are
    doing, which lights you use and how the Fenix compares? I have pretty
    moderate needs as far lighting goes--5 miles in the city (and not
    every night, either)--and $50 is about as much as I want to spend on
    lights, so I was hoping this would be the answer.

    Thanks!

    p.s. how have you found the handlebar mount--is it secure? I cross a
    number of train tracks and that's been sufficient to knock stuff off
    my bike on occasion...

  14. autopi said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm very pleased with the Fenix L2DCE (CE=Cree Edition) as a bicycle
    light. $53 plus the cost of a handlebar mount flashlight holder. It
    won't replace the lights on my commute bike, but it's more than
    sufficient as a light to move between bicycles.

    I was considering getting a Fenix L2DCE myself, based on comments
    here. Can you say a bit more about what kind of commuting you are
    doing, which lights you use and how the Fenix compares? I have pretty
    moderate needs as far lighting goes--5 miles in the city (and not
    every night, either)--and $50 is about as much as I want to spend on
    lights, so I was hoping this would be the answer.

    On my normal commute bike I have two 14W sealed beam headlights, though
    usually turning only one of them on is sufficient. Commute is about
    eight miles, mainly on suburban streets, but some multi-lane higher
    speed roads. These lights enable me to ride at a fairly fast pace
    without getting cut off by vehicles. In terms of seeing the road, I
    could probably get by with less powerful lights, but I'd lose the
    advantage of being perceived as something other than a bicycle. See
    "http://www.nordicgroup.us/s78/images/img_0281.jpg".

    On the bikes I use for other activities I don't want a permanent setup
    but I still want safer lights than the usual $20 battery powered
    headlight or dynamo headlight. I may get a hub dynamo wheel for my
    folding Dahon as it may be nice for short trips around town to not have
    to always be attaching another light.

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks!

    p.s. how have you found the handlebar mount--is it secure? I cross a
    number of train tracks and that's been sufficient to knock stuff off
    my bike on occasion...

    I've only had that handlebar mount a few days. I was concerned about it
    as it's only plastic with some detents. However I did try simulating
    bumps, and I tried pulling it open without pulling the end forward to
    release the tab from the detents, and it held. You could also
    criss-cross a velcro cable tie
    ("http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94153"
    or
    "http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94152"😉
    around it if you're concerned about it opening on its own.

    The TwoFish LockBlock, uses velcro and rubber blocks, but it too is a
    little two big for the very small diameter Fenix L2DCE.

    See "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/flashlights.html" for details on using
    flashlight type lights on your bicycle.

    It's ironic that many of these flashlights project a much more bicycling
    compatible beam than dedicated bicycle lights, many of which do not have
    sufficient beam spread or spillover to illuminate off to the side.

    Steve
    http://bicyclelighting.com
    Earth's Independent Source for Bicycle Lighting Information

  15. Phil said:

    Check out the headlamp Princeton Tec EOS Cree/Seoul mod. I use it for night
    riding in dark areas.

    Please post the bulb model and source for ordering. I have the
    Princeton Tec EOS Bike helmet light and would not mind getting more
    light out of it.

  16. SMS said:

    I recall a few years ago someone was espousing the virtues of LED
    lights, and one of the benefits he came up with was something like "no
    white hot filament." Obviously he didn't understand anything about
    semiconductor physics and junction current and temperatures (Tj).
    There's no free lunch here. There is heat, a lot of heat, to deal with
    in both LEDs and incandescent sources.

    There is certainly heat to deal with. But are you suggesting that the
    junction of the LED _is_ white hot - that is, several thousand
    degrees Kelvin?

    - Frank Krygowski

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