Time Titanium Mag Impact Pedals

Rick said:

At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use of a pedal with a
titanium axle?

Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle. The history of ti spindles in all
brands is chilling. Dump 'em now.

You'll hear from others who will say "mine didn't break". Whatever. The ones which do fail will land
you on your face too quickly to react. It is a poor bargain of grams for facial hamburger.

We no longer sell _any_ ti spindles, pedal or BB, of any brand, in this place. I've seen too much

YMMV

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle. The history of ti spindles in
all brands is chilling. Dump 'em now.

You'll hear from others who will say "mine didn't break". Whatever. The ones which do fail will
land you on your face too quickly to react. It is a poor bargain of grams for facial hamburger.

We no longer sell _any_ ti spindles, pedal or BB, of any brand, in this place. I've seen too much

YMMV

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I have seen Time Ti's in service for many miles, but I'd agree that it's a risk. BB spindle and
pedal spindles aren't the safest way to save weight. Maybe on a hill climb bike for races only if
you're very competitive, but not as general use.

Cheers,

Scott..

rgamble-<< At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use of a pedal with a
titanium axle?

Thanks in advance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

What an appropriate name-gamble. I think pedal spindles and BB spindles are a poor(dumb) place for
titanium. Breaking one of these really hurts. The weight savings is teeny tiny, I would never do it
even if I were 170(or 150) pounds.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rgamble-<< At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding

the use

Quoted message said:

of a pedal with a titanium axle?

Thanks in advance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

What an appropriate name-gamble. I think pedal spindles and BB spindles

are a

Quoted message said:

poor(dumb) place for titanium. Breaking one of these really hurts. The

weight

Quoted message said:

savings is teeny tiny, I would never do it even if I were 170(or 150)

pounds.

Quoted message said:

I feel the same about titanium fasteners (like stem/bar connectors) and also carbon fiber bars and
seatposts.

Robin Hubert

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rick said:

At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use

of a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pedal with a titanium axle?

Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle. The history of ti spindles in
all brands is chilling. Dump 'em now.

You'll hear from others who will say "mine didn't break". Whatever. The ones which do fail will
land you on your face too quickly to react. It is a poor bargain of grams for facial hamburger.

We no longer sell _any_ ti spindles, pedal or BB, of any brand, in this place. I've seen too much

YMMV

You are probably right, Andrew, but your "facial hamburger" scenario is a bit dire. I broke some Ti
axle pedals (some early East Rochester Tool & Die) and just came down on my foot. I broke four or
five cranks and never fell. Not that anyone wants to break pedals, but it will not cause you to go
OTB. It will cause you to pedal one-legged for, perhaps, a very long way (and wake up a shop owner
in a small town at
7:00 am on a Sunday to buy a $10 pair of pedals -- thank God the owner lived in a house attached to
the shop). -- Jay Beattie.

Thanks for the tips and insights.

About 1984 I snapped a Campy SL steel spindle pedal while attacking. As I was alone at the time
and no other riders were affected I felt fortunate that there were no injuries as a result of the
event. I'll never forget the "hey ,wat hoppen?" moment as i was fortunate not to have faceplanted.
Lauren Figioun had a similar look on his is face as a result of the same event about the same
point in time.

"Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rgamble-<< At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding

the use

Quoted message said:

of a pedal with a titanium axle?

Thanks in advance.

Quoted message said:

><BR><BR>

What an appropriate name-gamble. I think pedal spindles and BB spindles

are a

Quoted message said:

poor(dumb) place for titanium. Breaking one of these really hurts. The

weight

Quoted message said:

savings is teeny tiny, I would never do it even if I were 170(or 150)

pounds.

Quoted message said:

I feel the same about titanium fasteners (like stem/bar connectors) and

also

Quoted message said:

carbon fiber bars and seatposts.

Robin Hubert

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Rick said:

At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use of a pedal with a
titanium axle?

Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle. The history of ti spindles in
all brands is chilling. Dump 'em now.

You'll hear from others who will say "mine didn't break". Whatever. The ones which do fail will
land you on your face too quickly to react. It is a poor bargain of grams for facial hamburger.

We no longer sell _any_ ti spindles, pedal or BB, of any brand, in this place. I've seen too much

YMMV

Dear Andrew,

Why do the titanium pieces fail?

Are they made from an inherently weaker metal? I had a vague notion that some titanium alloys were
awfully strong, but my metallurgy is mostly vague notions.

Are they just poor quality titanium alloys? That is, would decent titanium, but the rotten stuff
used to save money is weakened by bad refinining processes?

Or are the designers just making the titanium pieces too thin in some misguided pursuit of
light weight?

I take it that titanium frames are okay, but I'm curious what the difference is.

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel said:

Quoted message said:

We no longer sell _any_ ti spindles, pedal or BB, of any brand, in this place. I've seen
too much

Quoted message said:

Why do the titanium pieces fail?

Quoted message said:

Are they made from an inherently weaker metal? I had a vague notion that some titanium alloys were
awfully strong, but my metallurgy is mostly vague notions. ...

Quoted message said:

I take it that titanium frames are okay, but I'm curious what the difference is.

Bottom bracket and pedal spindles are dimensionally limited so there is not much possibility to make
the piece oversized to increase overall strength and stiffness. This is as opposed to oversized Ti
or Al frames and the occasional hub axle. (Frame and hub axle failures are also less likely to dump
the rider, but that's a separate issue.)

If you search the Google archives of this group for e.g. "titanium bracket spindle strength" you can
find several heated discussions of stuff like titanium BB spindles from back in the heyday of
stupidlite trick MTB parts. You don't see many of those discussions any more.

The only pedal spindle I saw break caused the person to hit the pavement with his head. Fortunately
he was wearing a helmet and only received a concussion instead of a fractured skull. We were riding
in town and had made a corner at about 15 mph and he stood up to get back up to speed. Pedal spindle
broke and he went down.

They were steel spindle Time Equipe pedals. Mid 1990s vintage. My steel spindle Time pedals are a
few years older. Just bad luck on his set of pedals. This accident occurred about 2000.

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rick said:

At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use

of a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pedal with a titanium axle?

Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle. The history of ti spindles in
all brands is chilling. Dump 'em now.

You'll hear from others who will say "mine didn't break". Whatever. The ones which do fail will
land you on your face too quickly to react. It is a poor bargain of grams for facial hamburger.

We no longer sell _any_ ti spindles, pedal or BB, of any brand, in this place. I've seen
too much

YMMV

You are probably right, Andrew, but your "facial hamburger" scenario is a bit dire. I broke some
Ti axle pedals (some early East Rochester Tool & Die) and just came down on my foot. I broke four
or five cranks and never fell. Not that anyone wants to break pedals, but it will not cause you to
go OTB. It will cause you to pedal one-legged for, perhaps, a very long way (and wake up a shop
owner in a small town at
7:00 am on a Sunday to buy a $10 pair of pedals -- thank God the owner lived in a house attached
to the shop). -- Jay Beattie.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rick wrote: At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use

Quoted message said:

of a pedal with a titanium axle?

Quoted message said:

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle.

-snip more scaremongering-

Jay Beattie said:

You are probably right, Andrew, but your "facial hamburger" scenario is a bit dire. I broke some
Ti axle pedals (some early East Rochester Tool & Die) and just came down on my foot. I broke four
or five cranks and never fell. Not that anyone wants to break pedals, but it will not cause you to
go OTB. It will cause you to pedal one-legged for, perhaps, a very long way (and wake up a shop
owner in a small town at
7:00 am on a Sunday to buy a $10 pair of pedals -- thank God the owner lived in a house attached
to the shop). -- Jay Beattie.

I'm sincerely happy you were not injured.

A rider of my acquaintance lost four front teeth, cracked the orbit above an eye and had her nose
smashed to a pulp when a ti pedal snapped in traffic. She narrowly escaped being run over by a truck
on top of that.

The father of my attorney snapped the head of his femur after a broken spindle while climbing out of
the saddle at age 75 and effectively never cycled again the rest of his life. That accident took
years from him IMHO, with the reduced activity.

Yes, many other riders literally walk away . But the risk for five grams???
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rick said:

At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use of a pedal with a
titanium axle?

Quoted message said:

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle.

-and more of the same-

Carl Fogel said:

Why do the titanium pieces fail?

Are they made from an inherently weaker metal? I had a vague notion that some titanium alloys were
awfully strong, but my metallurgy is mostly vague notions.

Are they just poor quality titanium alloys? That is, would decent titanium, but the rotten stuff
used to save money is weakened by bad refinining processes?

Or are the designers just making the titanium pieces too thin in some misguided pursuit of
light weight?

I take it that titanium frames are okay, but I'm curious what the difference is.

Titanium can make a reasonable, even an excellent, frame tube. Titanium is hopelessly inadequate as
a spoke. Where a steel fastener is much stronger than necessary, such as a cantilever brake mounting
bolt, titanium can be used to good effect for a slight weight savings.

It is not a magic solution to every problem.

It is relatively soft compared to steel in terms of surface abrasion, so it is a lousy sprocket.
Makes an acceptable chainring bolt.

History of ti stems is checkered, but then again superlight aluminum stems are no better. The
notorious cases probably relate to poor material/poor weld practices.

You may remember when there was a craze of replacing steel fasteners with purple aluminum ones (and
fifteen years before that, black aluminum ones). When the steel part is overdesigned, the AL or Ti
replacement can be lighter and still safe. In areas where the size limits of standard shafts are
based on a steel piece, aluminum or ti may not be safe. It isn't that it's thin inside, or poorly
made or inferior titanium. It's just that the expected loads would indicate a titanium shaft larger
than the 9/16" we have available in a standard pedal thread or the 5/8" of a crank spindle. (I'll
intuitively assume a splined format Ti spindle would probably be more reliable than a Ti square
taper spindle one but I don't know that. Chalo?)

I'm sure a reasonable titanium crank spindle or pedal spindle could be made. But the diameter would
be larger than the present formats.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rick wrote:
>At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use of a pedal with a titanium
>axle?

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle.

-and more of the same-

Carl Fogel said:

Why do the titanium pieces fail?

Are they made from an inherently weaker metal? I had a vague notion that some titanium alloys
were awfully strong, but my metallurgy is mostly vague notions.

Are they just poor quality titanium alloys? That is, would decent titanium, but the rotten stuff
used to save money is weakened by bad refinining processes?

Or are the designers just making the titanium pieces too thin in some misguided pursuit of light
weight?

I take it that titanium frames are okay, but I'm curious what the difference is.

Titanium can make a reasonable, even an excellent, frame tube. Titanium is hopelessly inadequate
as a spoke. Where a steel fastener is much stronger than necessary, such as a cantilever brake
mounting bolt, titanium can be used to good effect for a slight weight savings.

It is not a magic solution to every problem.

It is relatively soft compared to steel in terms of surface abrasion, so it is a lousy sprocket.
Makes an acceptable chainring bolt.

History of ti stems is checkered, but then again superlight aluminum stems are no better. The
notorious cases probably relate to poor material/poor weld practices.

You may remember when there was a craze of replacing steel fasteners with purple aluminum ones
(and fifteen years before that, black aluminum ones). When the steel part is overdesigned, the AL
or Ti replacement can be lighter and still safe. In areas where the size limits of standard shafts
are based on a steel piece, aluminum or ti may not be safe. It isn't that it's thin inside, or
poorly made or inferior titanium. It's just that the expected loads would indicate a titanium
shaft larger than the 9/16" we have available in a standard pedal thread or the 5/8" of a crank
spindle. (I'll intuitively assume a splined format Ti spindle would probably be more reliable than
a Ti square taper spindle one but I don't know that. Chalo?)

I'm sure a reasonable titanium crank spindle or pedal spindle could be made. But the diameter
would be larger than the present formats.

Dear Andrew and Benjamin,

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain the problem to me. I gather that titanium is simply weaker
than various steels and therefore unsuitable where traditional sizing makes it impossible to make
the parts sufficiently fatter and stronger.

Carl Fogel

"Carl Fogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Rick wrote:
>>At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use

of a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>pedal with a titanium axle?

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle.

-and more of the same-

Carl Fogel said:

Why do the titanium pieces fail?

Are they made from an inherently weaker metal? I had a vague notion that some titanium alloys
were awfully strong, but my metallurgy is mostly vague notions.

Are they just poor quality titanium alloys? That is, would decent titanium, but the rotten
stuff used to save money is weakened by bad refinining processes?

Or are the designers just making the titanium pieces too thin in some misguided pursuit of
light weight?

I take it that titanium frames are okay, but I'm curious what the difference is.

Titanium can make a reasonable, even an excellent, frame tube. Titanium is hopelessly inadequate
as a spoke. Where a steel fastener is much stronger than necessary, such as a cantilever brake
mounting bolt, titanium can be used to good effect for a slight weight savings.

It is not a magic solution to every problem.

It is relatively soft compared to steel in terms of surface abrasion, so it is a lousy sprocket.
Makes an acceptable chainring bolt.

History of ti stems is checkered, but then again superlight aluminum stems are no better. The
notorious cases probably relate to poor material/poor weld practices.

You may remember when there was a craze of replacing steel fasteners with purple aluminum ones
(and fifteen years before that, black aluminum ones). When the steel part is overdesigned, the
AL or Ti replacement can be lighter and still safe. In areas where the size limits of standard
shafts are based on a steel piece, aluminum or ti may not be safe. It isn't that it's thin
inside, or poorly made or inferior titanium. It's just that the expected loads would indicate a
titanium shaft larger than the 9/16" we have available in a standard pedal thread or the 5/8" of
a crank spindle. (I'll intuitively assume a splined format Ti spindle would probably be more
reliable than a Ti square taper spindle one but I don't know that. Chalo?)

I'm sure a reasonable titanium crank spindle or pedal spindle could be made. But the diameter
would be larger than the present formats.

Dear Andrew and Benjamin,

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain the problem to me. I gather that titanium is simply
weaker than various steels and therefore unsuitable where traditional sizing makes it impossible
to make the parts sufficiently fatter and stronger.

Carl Fogel

Carl, You can go here bebop.combebop.comOpen ↗ and click on "Bebop University". This
azom.comdetails.aspOpen ↗ might also help a bit. You can then do a bit of
searching to see how it compares to other metals (esp. steel). Pay particular attention to the
ability to withstand bending forces.

Robin Hubert

"Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Carl Fogel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Rick wrote:
>>>At 6' 1" and 170 lb. (77 Kg) should I be concerned regarding the use

of a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>pedal with a titanium axle?

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Concerned? Yes! Take them out and install a proper steel spindle.
-and more of the same-

Carl Fogel wrote:
> Why do the titanium pieces fail?
>
> Are they made from an inherently weaker metal? I had a vague notion that some titanium
> alloys were awfully strong, but my metallurgy is mostly vague notions.
>
> Are they just poor quality titanium alloys? That is, would decent titanium, but the rotten
> stuff used to save money is weakened by bad refinining processes?
>
> Or are the designers just making the titanium pieces too thin in some misguided pursuit of
> light weight?
>
> I take it that titanium frames are okay, but I'm curious what the difference is.

Titanium can make a reasonable, even an excellent, frame tube. Titanium is hopelessly
inadequate as a spoke. Where a steel fastener is much stronger than necessary, such as a
cantilever brake mounting bolt, titanium can be used to good effect for a slight weight
savings.

It is not a magic solution to every problem.

It is relatively soft compared to steel in terms of surface abrasion, so it is a lousy
sprocket. Makes an acceptable chainring bolt.

History of ti stems is checkered, but then again superlight aluminum stems are no better. The
notorious cases probably relate to poor material/poor weld practices.

You may remember when there was a craze of replacing steel fasteners with purple aluminum ones
(and fifteen years before that, black aluminum ones). When the steel part is overdesigned, the
AL or Ti replacement can be lighter and still safe. In areas where the size limits of standard
shafts are based on a steel piece, aluminum or ti may not be safe. It isn't that it's thin
inside, or poorly made or inferior titanium. It's just that the expected loads would indicate
a titanium shaft larger than the 9/16" we have available in a standard pedal thread or the
5/8" of a crank spindle. (I'll intuitively assume a splined format Ti spindle would probably
be more reliable than a Ti square taper spindle one but I don't know that. Chalo?)

I'm sure a reasonable titanium crank spindle or pedal spindle could be made. But the diameter
would be larger than the present formats.

Dear Andrew and Benjamin,

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain the problem to me. I gather that titanium is simply
weaker than various steels and therefore unsuitable where traditional sizing makes it impossible
to make the parts sufficiently fatter and stronger.

Carl Fogel

Carl, You can go here bebop.combebop.comOpen ↗ and click on "Bebop University". This
azom.comdetails.aspOpen ↗ might also help a bit. You can then do a bit of
searching to see how it compares to other metals (esp. steel). Pay particular attention to the
ability to withstand bending forces.

Robin Hubert

Dear Robin,

That's a nice explanation at Bebop U.

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel said:

That's a nice explanation at Bebop U.

You might also like the Scot Nicol articles on frame materials at
www2.sjsu.eduarticl.htmOpen ↗ There are several material properties which are
of interest, stiffness and tensile strength being two of the obvious ones. It is important to also
note what the material will be used for.

For example, for frame tubing, you need to use a material that is joinable by e.g. welding or
brazing. I think the Ti alloys used in frames have tensile strengths similar to some
weldable/brazeable cromoly steels used in frames. (But lower stiffness, which is why the Ti tubes
are oversized.) However, pedal spindles don't need to be welded, and manufacturers can use Cr-Mo or
stainless steel alloys which have yet higher strength and hardness (good for bearing races), but are
not particularly weldable. I guess that this is what Bebop and other manufacturers are doing with
their stainless steel spindles.

Benjamin Weiner <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3fc857c5$1@darkstar>...

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

That's a nice explanation at Bebop U.

You might also like the Scot Nicol articles on frame materials at
www2.sjsu.eduarticl.htmOpen ↗ There are several material properties which are
of interest, stiffness and tensile strength being two of the obvious ones. It is important to also
note what the material will be used for.

For example, for frame tubing, you need to use a material that is joinable by e.g. welding or
brazing. I think the Ti alloys used in frames have tensile strengths similar to some
weldable/brazeable cromoly steels used in frames. (But lower stiffness, which is why the Ti tubes
are oversized.) However, pedal spindles don't need to be welded, and manufacturers can use Cr-Mo
or stainless steel alloys which have yet higher strength and hardness (good for bearing races),
but are not particularly weldable. I guess that this is what Bebop and other manufacturers are
doing with their stainless steel spindles.

Dear Benjamin,

These Scot Nicol articles look fascinating, sort of like the dog-eared "Metals--An Overview" in my
1995 BikePro catalogue. (They even use the same enormously wide lines as the Bike Pro
articles--possibly Nicol wrote both?)

Apparently it pays to confuse you with Benjamin Lewis--you're both being awfully nice to me.

Thanks,

Carl Fogel