Training for a 50-mile race

news.tiscali.co.uk said:

I'd really appreciate any opinions / advice.

My Background is thus. I'm attempting my first 50 miler seven weeks from
now. Though I only run fairly small mileage (50-60 miles per week), my long
runs have been fairly OK - I regularly run a 18-20 miler weekly and a
25-miler every few weeks. Longest set of runs so far was a 30 mile run on
the Friday evening followed by a 28 mile the morning after - this was an
organized event and though I was smashed at the end of it, I survived!!
That was my biggest run, about 6 weeks ago.

A couple of thing:

1) People say that time on the feet is important. Does that mean that I
should run a set distance slower (i.e. do 25 mile long-run in 4hrs rather
than 3:30 currently), or, should I run the same pace and do more miles? I
guess the former is less likely to injure than the latter, but is the latter
preferable?

2) I think 6 weeks out is the last chance to make any difference, so I was
planning a down week this week (30 miles ish) and then cranking up to 70
miles the week after with a 30 mile long-run. depending on the answer to
the above, I was thinking about maybe stringing that run out to about 6
hours, with lots of walking / eating / looking at the views!

My primary goal is to finish the 50 intact. Secondary goal is to finish
under 10-hours.

Many thanks.

Ro,
You're a wimp, you'll never make it.
Your pal,
Me

Sounds like a good plan. (I've never done more than 30 at a time).
Let activity-specific very-long-runs count for more of your mileage.
I've heard some people suggest more long runs and more rest days,
e.g. two 12s, a 390, and four three rest days a week.

"rick++" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

e.g. two 12s, a 390, and four three rest days a week.

This is a little unclear.
390 what?

news.tiscali.co.uk said:

I'd really appreciate any opinions / advice.

My Background is thus. I'm attempting my first 50 miler seven weeks
from now. Though I only run fairly small mileage (50-60 miles per
week), my long runs have been fairly OK - I regularly run a 18-20 miler
weekly and a 25-miler every few weeks. Longest set of runs so far was a
30 mile run on the Friday evening followed by a 28 mile the morning
after - this was an organized event and though I was smashed at the end
of it, I survived!! That was my biggest run, about 6 weeks ago.

This 30 mi followed by 28 mi should put you in very good shape to
finish, esp. if similar terrain. If you regularly run 18-20 mi and 25-mi
every few weeks, you should be in decent shape for a 50-miler. You're
probably well on your way.

Quoted message said:

A couple of thing:

1) People say that time on the feet is important. Does that mean that I
should run a set distance slower (i.e. do 25 mile long-run in 4hrs
rather than 3:30 currently), or, should I run the same pace and do more
miles? I guess the former is less likely to injure than the latter, but
is the latter preferable?

Run normally for long run effort suitable for that duration, but longer
run. A 4-hr run might be a little slower than a 3:30 run, so it would be
a little slower, but not slow enough that you'd do the same distance in
4 hrs vs 3.5 hrs.

The big thing about time on legs (TOL) vs distance is that it'll take
longer to run, say, 20 mi with 10,000 ft of hills with rocky terrain
than it would to run 20 miles of flat, smooth terrain. Or at race pace
on race day, you might do it faster so a 40-mi training run might be the
same time on legs as 50 mi race. I don't think most people actually run
the 50 mi in training, but I do know of some that do 38-40 mi for 50 mi
training. Some folks may do 30 mi as long run for 50 miler, so where
you did a b2b 30 mi in evening followed by 28 mi next morning, you're in
really good position for a 50 miler, probably in something above
survival mode.

Another thought is that some consider training the endocrine system
important, and that doesn't really start until about 3 hr so many might
use 4 hr as minimum TOL for training for longer events. 6-8 hr long runs
aren't uncommon for long run training for mortals. But some faster folks
can get it done with 3-4 hr runs, and you might be in that category. Dan
can probably give you a better idea. (and I think Doug should be back
about now also)

Quoted message said:

2) I think 6 weeks out is the last chance to make any difference, so I
was planning a down week this week (30 miles ish) and then cranking up
to 70 miles the week after with a 30 mile long-run. depending on the
answer to the above, I was thinking about maybe stringing that run out
to about 6 hours, with lots of walking / eating / looking at the views!

Someone with experience at that distance and speed (I'm really slow and
was only aiming for 38mi) could give you a more reliable answer, but I'd
probably just keep the same effort for, maybe, 5-6 hr or so (whatever it
works out to). That is, I wouldn't slow down just to prolong the run.
I'd slow to an effort that would be needed to run or run/walk the
distance / time you have planned. But you can still look at views.🙂
(I'm slow enough that 6 hr for *me* does involve lots of walking /
eating / taking pictures - but that's *my* race pace. That's why I'm
suggesting a response from someone faster.)

One of the big things on the long runs is finding what works for you -
clothing, shoes, food, drink, electrolytes, timing of eat/ drink/
electrolytes, using bottle or backpack, etc. Dress rehearsal, if you
will. If you're using aid stations and drop bags that might not be too
big a deal, but if there's no aid stations there might be some equipment
issues to work out. Sometimes things that work for 3 hr in cold don't
work for 6 hr in heat. But since you routinely run fairly long runs,
that shouldn't be that big an issue.

If it's hilly to the point that you may need to hike sections, many will
practice hiking fast - either as part of long runs or on separate days.

What was suggested to me, and seems fairly common, is to do longest long
run (7-8 hr for slowpokes like me) about 5 wk out and last long run
about 3 wk out (4 hr). People recover at different rates from their long
runs, and in your case your longest runs probably aren't that much
longer than some of your other runs, so your recovery rates should be
fast. (I've heard of numbers like 11 days for the endocrine system to
recover, but they weren't sure where they had seen that number.)

Quoted message said:

My primary goal is to finish the 50 intact. Secondary goal is to finish
under 10-hours.

Good luck. Based on your existing training, you should do well. Just
make it to the start line uninjured. 😉

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

"news.tiscali.co.uk" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

My Background is thus. I'm attempting my first 50 miler seven weeks from
now. Though I only run fairly small mileage (50-60 miles per week), my
long runs have been fairly OK - I regularly run a 18-20 miler weekly and a
25-miler every few weeks.

Sounds fine. When preparing for a 50, I normally run 18-20 weeklly and have
a single run of 30+ 3 or 4 weeks out.

Quoted message said:

Longest set of runs so far was a 30 mile run on the Friday evening
followed by a 28 mile the morning after - this was an organized event and
though I was smashed at the end of it, I survived!! That was my biggest
run, about 6 weeks ago.

That's about as hard as racing a 50, imo. If you survived that, you're
ready.

Quoted message said:

1) People say that time on the feet is important. Does that mean that I
should run a set distance slower (i.e. do 25 mile long-run in 4hrs rather
than 3:30 currently), or, should I run the same pace and do more miles?

If you're running a 25 miler in 3:30 during a normal training week, and
you're not racing it, you will be one of the contenders...

I might run a 50k run on trails at a low 9:00 pace -- a longer distance at a
slower speed. (In other words, neither A, nor B :-)

Don't worry about pace on the long runs. If you're a speedster, get your
faster runs in on the shorter distances. You'll do better and have much
less chance of overtraining or injury.

What counts is average mileage with a long run once a week. If you're going
for speed, limit the faster work to shorter runs of 1 to 1.5 hours duration.

Quoted message said:

2) I think 6 weeks out is the last chance to make any difference, so I was
planning a down week this week (30 miles ish)

Unless you're run down and stale, I'd keep the mileage steady. If you want
to ease back, slow the pace down. Save the mileage decrease for your 2 week
taper...

Quoted message said:

...and then cranking up to 70 miles the week after with a 30 mile
long-run.

Just be careful and don't push too hard...

Quoted message said:

depending on the answer to the above, I was thinking about maybe stringing
that run out to about 6 hours, with lots of walking / eating / looking at
the views!

I think the miles and time on feet are important -- I like to get a long run
that will take 2/3 the time my race is expected to. If I want an 8 hour 50,
I'll run 5-5.5 hours. That ends up being 30+ miles for me depending on the
terrain.
]
Maybe one more 30-ish mile run 4 weeks out from the race, but at a slow
pace, with breaks if you need them. Finish knowing you could plod along for
several more miles without too much difficulty. Usually boredom sets in for
me at the end of long solo runs. (I never get bored during a race :-)

Quoted message said:

My primary goal is to finish the 50 intact. Secondary goal is to finish
under 10-hours.

You're well trained enough to complete a 50 right now, imo. Just don't
overdo it in the coming weeks. What is most important for a neophyte is
tactics: Start slow, learn to eat and drink enough, and be prepared for a
plod-fest for the last 10-15 miles -- it's mind over matter.

Some questions to stimulate your research based on my own hard-won
experience:

Do you know how much you sweat during hours and hours of running?
Have you researched and experimented with salt replenishment?
Do you know what it means if your stomach sloshes and you feel nauseated?
Do you know how much you can comfortably eat on the run without bogging
down?
Do you know the symptoms of low blood sugar (meaning it's time to eat)?
Do you cramp up when dehydrated?
Are your shoes loose and roomy in the toe box (can an prevent blisters).
Do you file down calluses, and keep your toenails filed and smooth to
prevent catching?
Experimented with double-layer thin socks (such as the Wright Sock)?

"D Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Sounds fine. When preparing for a 50, I normally run 18-20 weeklly and
have a single run of 30+ 3 or 4 weeks out.

Oops, meant to say I run an 18-20 mile run weekly (my mileage averages about
70/week).

Thanks Dot - that's good advice. See my reply to D Stumpus - you both are
singing from the same hymn sheet, so to speak.

Dave

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

news.tiscali.co.uk said:

I'd really appreciate any opinions / advice.

My Background is thus. I'm attempting my first 50 miler seven weeks from
now. Though I only run fairly small mileage (50-60 miles per week), my
long runs have been fairly OK - I regularly run a 18-20 miler weekly and
a 25-miler every few weeks. Longest set of runs so far was a 30 mile run
on the Friday evening followed by a 28 mile the morning after - this was
an organized event and though I was smashed at the end of it, I
survived!! That was my biggest run, about 6 weeks ago.

This 30 mi followed by 28 mi should put you in very good shape to finish,
esp. if similar terrain. If you regularly run 18-20 mi and 25-mi every few
weeks, you should be in decent shape for a 50-miler. You're probably well
on your way.

Quoted message said:

A couple of thing:

1) People say that time on the feet is important. Does that mean that I
should run a set distance slower (i.e. do 25 mile long-run in 4hrs rather
than 3:30 currently), or, should I run the same pace and do more miles?
I guess the former is less likely to injure than the latter, but is the
latter preferable?

Run normally for long run effort suitable for that duration, but longer
run. A 4-hr run might be a little slower than a 3:30 run, so it would be a
little slower, but not slow enough that you'd do the same distance in 4
hrs vs 3.5 hrs.

The big thing about time on legs (TOL) vs distance is that it'll take
longer to run, say, 20 mi with 10,000 ft of hills with rocky terrain than
it would to run 20 miles of flat, smooth terrain. Or at race pace on race
day, you might do it faster so a 40-mi training run might be the same time
on legs as 50 mi race. I don't think most people actually run the 50 mi in
training, but I do know of some that do 38-40 mi for 50 mi training. Some
folks may do 30 mi as long run for 50 miler, so where you did a b2b 30 mi
in evening followed by 28 mi next morning, you're in really good position
for a 50 miler, probably in something above survival mode.

Another thought is that some consider training the endocrine system
important, and that doesn't really start until about 3 hr so many might
use 4 hr as minimum TOL for training for longer events. 6-8 hr long runs
aren't uncommon for long run training for mortals. But some faster folks
can get it done with 3-4 hr runs, and you might be in that category. Dan
can probably give you a better idea. (and I think Doug should be back
about now also)

Quoted message said:

2) I think 6 weeks out is the last chance to make any difference, so I
was planning a down week this week (30 miles ish) and then cranking up to
70 miles the week after with a 30 mile long-run. depending on the answer
to the above, I was thinking about maybe stringing that run out to about
6 hours, with lots of walking / eating / looking at the views!

Someone with experience at that distance and speed (I'm really slow and
was only aiming for 38mi) could give you a more reliable answer, but I'd
probably just keep the same effort for, maybe, 5-6 hr or so (whatever it
works out to). That is, I wouldn't slow down just to prolong the run. I'd
slow to an effort that would be needed to run or run/walk the distance /
time you have planned. But you can still look at views.🙂 (I'm slow enough
that 6 hr for *me* does involve lots of walking / eating / taking
pictures - but that's *my* race pace. That's why I'm suggesting a response
from someone faster.)

One of the big things on the long runs is finding what works for you -
clothing, shoes, food, drink, electrolytes, timing of eat/ drink/
electrolytes, using bottle or backpack, etc. Dress rehearsal, if you will.
If you're using aid stations and drop bags that might not be too big a
deal, but if there's no aid stations there might be some equipment issues
to work out. Sometimes things that work for 3 hr in cold don't work for 6
hr in heat. But since you routinely run fairly long runs, that shouldn't
be that big an issue.

If it's hilly to the point that you may need to hike sections, many will
practice hiking fast - either as part of long runs or on separate days.

What was suggested to me, and seems fairly common, is to do longest long
run (7-8 hr for slowpokes like me) about 5 wk out and last long run about
3 wk out (4 hr). People recover at different rates from their long runs,
and in your case your longest runs probably aren't that much longer than
some of your other runs, so your recovery rates should be fast. (I've
heard of numbers like 11 days for the endocrine system to recover, but
they weren't sure where they had seen that number.)

Quoted message said:

My primary goal is to finish the 50 intact. Secondary goal is to finish
under 10-hours.

Good luck. Based on your existing training, you should do well. Just make
it to the start line uninjured. 😉

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Longest set of runs so far was a 30 mile run on the Friday evening
followed by a 28 mile the morning after - this was an organized event and
though I was smashed at the end of it, I survived!! That was my biggest
run, about 6 weeks ago.

That's about as hard as racing a 50, imo. If you survived that, you're
ready.

I was pretty dead at the end - suffered a spectacular bonk at 23 miles of
the second leg and kept slowing to a walk. That was a sucess in terms of
running the rest, barr nav / nutrition stops, but disconcerting in the
profound effects of going past my comfort zone. I was actually with a
runner on the second day who was MUCH faster than myself (Irish
international runner), and if it weren't for some stern words from him, I
would have walked the last 5-miles, instead of shuffling / walking /
whining....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1) People say that time on the feet is important. Does that mean that I
should run a set distance slower (i.e. do 25 mile long-run in 4hrs rather
than 3:30 currently), or, should I run the same pace and do more miles?

If you're running a 25 miler in 3:30 during a normal training week, and
you're not racing it, you will be one of the contenders...

I am in no way planning to contend - 50 miles is so far past what I've done
in the past that I just want to finish!

Quoted message said:

I think the miles and time on feet are important -- I like to get a long
run that will take 2/3 the time my race is expected to. If I want an 8
hour 50, I'll run 5-5.5 hours. That ends up being 30+ miles for me
depending on the terrain.
]
Maybe one more 30-ish mile run 4 weeks out from the race, but at a slow
pace, with breaks if you need them. Finish knowing you could plod along
for several more miles without too much difficulty. Usually boredom sets
in for me at the end of long solo runs. (I never get bored during a race
:-)

OK - so you and Dot seem to be saying the same thing - don't be
intentionally slow, but don't destroy myself to finish it in a 'decent'
time. Perhaps I should run it planning to do a short run the next day, so
if I plan not to have a day off, I'll keep something in the tank. I've been
working on the basis of finishing a 25 mile run and feeling able to 'do it
again'. I guess that I should finish the 30 miles in the mindest of 'being
able to do a bit more'. Plus, I find that it's always easier on race day.

Quoted message said:

Some questions to stimulate your research based on my own hard-won
experience:

Do you know how much you sweat during hours and hours of running?
Have you researched and experimented with salt replenishment?
Do you know how much you can comfortably eat on the run without bogging
down?
Do you know the symptoms of low blood sugar (meaning it's time to eat)?
Do you cramp up when dehydrated?

Maybe this a a subject for anothe thread, but I find that I go through
massive ammounts of water when running. I don't have to eat too much (though
mars bars help!!), but on the previous 30 mile run (on a warm day - it took
5 hours with navigation on an unmarked XC course), I found that I went
through 3.5L of water whilst a guy running with me went though about 1L.
Not a problem on the course I'm training for (5x10mile loops with aid at
each loop), but is there any way to train to get by on less?

Many thank for the advice.

Dave

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's about as hard as racing a 50, imo. If you survived that, you're
ready.

Quoted message said:

I was pretty dead at the end - suffered a spectacular bonk at 23 miles of
the second leg and kept slowing to a walk.

With experience, you can learn to eat, walk a bit, and resume proper
shuffling form :-)

Quoted message said:

That was a sucess in terms of running the rest, barr nav / nutrition
stops, but disconcerting in the profound effects of going past my comfort
zone. I was actually with a runner on the second day who was MUCH faster
than myself (Irish international runner), and if it weren't for some stern
words from him, I would have walked the last 5-miles, instead of shuffling
/ walking / whining....

That's pretty much what the last 10 are going to be like. Be prepared, and
tough it out! In my best races, I've left enough in the tank so that I can
push the last 5 miles a bit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1) People say that time on the feet is important. Does that mean that I
should run a set distance slower (i.e. do 25 mile long-run in 4hrs
rather than 3:30 currently), or, should I run the same pace and do more
miles?

If you're running a 25 miler in 3:30 during a normal training week, and
you're not racing it, you will be one of the contenders...

Pacing is the key. If you can run 10+ minutes/mile from the start, you'll
probably be in good shape. The problem is when you feel good and blast out
at 8+ mpm and have to pay the piper after mile 30...

Is this race flat? How many cumulative feet of climb?

Quoted message said:

I am in no way planning to contend - 50 miles is so far past what I've
done in the past that I just want to finish!

If you go out at a jog, you'll probably be able to hang on. If you had lots
of miles/week under your belt, you could go out at a medium pace, say 1.5
minutes slower than your marathon pace.

Quoted message said:

OK - so you and Dot seem to be saying the same thing - don't be
intentionally slow, but don't destroy myself to finish it in a 'decent'
time. Perhaps I should run it planning to do a short run the next day, so
if I plan not to have a day off, I'll keep something in the tank.

Better yet, run it at a controlled pace, *and* take the next day off...

Quoted message said:

I've been working on the basis of finishing a 25 mile run and feeling able
to 'do it again'. I guess that I should finish the 30 miles in the
mindest of 'being able to do a bit more'. Plus, I find that it's always
easier on race day.

Just remember that in a 50, the race begins at 35-40 miles.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you know how much you sweat during hours and hours of running?
Have you researched and experimented with salt replenishment?
Do you know how much you can comfortably eat on the run without bogging
down?
Do you know the symptoms of low blood sugar (meaning it's time to eat)?
Do you cramp up when dehydrated?

Maybe this a a subject for anothe thread, but I find that I go through
massive ammounts of water when running. I don't have to eat too much
(though mars bars help!!), but on the previous 30 mile run (on a warm
day - it took 5 hours with navigation on an unmarked XC course), I found
that I went through 3.5L of water whilst a guy running with me went though
about 1L.

1L is way too little. He had to be waaaay dehydrated at the end. I usually
average close to a L an hour. On a hot summer race in the mountains, I've
consumed about 2L in an hour.

At that level of H20 consumption, you should replenish salt -- look up
Succeed Caps for the product and some really enlightening articles. If you
get behind the salt curve, you'll be nauseated *and* dehydrated, a nasty
combination on an ultra.

Quoted message said:

Not a problem on the course I'm training for (5x10mile loops with aid at
each loop), but is there any way to train to get by on less

Aid every 10 miles is sparse -- that's 1:45 at 50 mile pace. Are you setup
to carry 2 bottles?

Good luck,

Dan

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maybe this a a subject for anothe thread, but I find that I go through
massive ammounts of water when running. I don't have to eat too much
(though mars bars help!!),

I'm coming in late on this. Careful of just water especially during an
ultra unless you are also taking in some salt and I don't think a Mars
bar fits the bill.

As for food eat early. 30 miles and not much food is a BIG difference
than 50 miles. Bonking is not much fun and junp you way past 10 hours.

Quoted message said:

but on the previous 30 mile run (on a warm day - it took 5 hours with
navigation on an unmarked XC course), I found that I went through 3.5L
of water whilst a guy running with me went though about 1L. Not a
problem on the course I'm training for (5x10mile loops with aid at
each loop), but is there any way to train to get by on less?

Why do you want to get by on less? Your body has certain demands, at
least at this stage of your running, so drink until you become a camel.

-Doug (24 50's in the bank)

Doug Freese said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe this a a subject for anothe thread, but I find that I go through
massive ammounts of water when running. I don't have to eat too much
(though mars bars help!!),

I'm coming in late on this. Careful of just water especially during an
ultra unless you are also taking in some salt and I don't think a Mars
bar fits the bill.

Hmm maybe not. I couldn't find a specific product called a "mars bar"
however Snickers has 140mgs of sodium, and some others more. They may
actually give him enough salt to hold his water.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I'm coming in late on this. Careful of just water especially during an
ultra unless you are also taking in some salt and I don't think a Mars bar
fits the bill.

Quoted message said:

As for food eat early. 30 miles and not much food is a BIG difference
than 50 miles. Bonking is not much fun and junp you way past 10 hours.

Preach it, Doug!

-- Dan

(Still trying to diagram those sentences, though... ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm coming in late on this. Careful of just water especially during an
ultra unless you are also taking in some salt and I don't think a Mars
bar fits the bill.

Quoted message said:

As for food eat early. 30 miles and not much food is a BIG difference
than 50 miles. Bonking is not much fun and junp you way past 10 hours.

Yes, I do admit that I should have eaten more on the other run, but like I
mentioned, I was running with people who had done it many times before, and
I think they were better able to cope with it. I usually try to eat and
drink a lot and will certainly be carrying at least 1L for each 10 mile lap
and drinking an extra 500mL at least at the aid station. My plan - whch
seems to work in training - is to drink a carb free electrolyte drink as I
go round and get my sugars / carb from food. This is partly because I
prefer the clean taste of the electrolyte mix, and partly because eating
makes me happy!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's about as hard as racing a 50, imo. If you survived that, you're
ready.

Quoted message said:

I was pretty dead at the end - suffered a spectacular bonk at 23 miles of
the second leg and kept slowing to a walk.

With experience, you can learn to eat, walk a bit, and resume proper
shuffling form :-)

Quoted message said:

That was a sucess in terms of running the rest, barr nav / nutrition
stops, but disconcerting in the profound effects of going past my comfort
zone. I was actually with a runner on the second day who was MUCH faster
than myself (Irish international runner), and if it weren't for some
stern words from him, I would have walked the last 5-miles, instead of
shuffling / walking / whining....

That's pretty much what the last 10 are going to be like. Be prepared,
and tough it out! In my best races, I've left enough in the tank so that
I can push the last 5 miles a bit.

The uncharted territory is the possibilty of doing it on my own, whereas
last time I had people around me. I guess you don't know how you'll react
until it happens.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 1) People say that time on the feet is important. Does that mean that
> I should run a set distance slower (i.e. do 25 mile long-run in 4hrs
> rather than 3:30 currently), or, should I run the same pace and do more
> miles?

If you're running a 25 miler in 3:30 during a normal training week, and
you're not racing it, you will be one of the contenders...

Pacing is the key. If you can run 10+ minutes/mile from the start, you'll
probably be in good shape. The problem is when you feel good and blast
out at 8+ mpm and have to pay the piper after mile 30...

Is this race flat? How many cumulative feet of climb?

I would call it undulating countryside. The 50miler has just under 8,000ft
of climbing in fairly equally distributed gradients. I have nothing to
campare this with and can't easily train on the course, so I'm just doing
whatever hills I can include in my runs - to put it in perspective, the
biggest hill near me is 700ft in 2 miles. I did a marathon not long back
with 7500ft of ascent, so I'm working on the basis that this will be half as
steep!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am in no way planning to contend - 50 miles is so far past what I've
done in the past that I just want to finish!

If you go out at a jog, you'll probably be able to hang on. If you had
lots of miles/week under your belt, you could go out at a medium pace, say
1.5 minutes slower than your marathon pace.

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OK - so you and Dot seem to be saying the same thing - don't be
intentionally slow, but don't destroy myself to finish it in a 'decent'
time. Perhaps I should run it planning to do a short run the next day,
so if I plan not to have a day off, I'll keep something in the tank.

Better yet, run it at a controlled pace, *and* take the next day off...

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I've been working on the basis of finishing a 25 mile run and feeling
able to 'do it again'. I guess that I should finish the 30 miles in the
mindest of 'being able to do a bit more'. Plus, I find that it's always
easier on race day.

Just remember that in a 50, the race begins at 35-40 miles.

Interesting point. Makes sense.

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Do you know how much you sweat during hours and hours of running?
Have you researched and experimented with salt replenishment?
Do you know how much you can comfortably eat on the run without bogging
down?
Do you know the symptoms of low blood sugar (meaning it's time to eat)?
Do you cramp up when dehydrated?

Maybe this a a subject for anothe thread, but I find that I go through
massive ammounts of water when running. I don't have to eat too much
(though mars bars help!!), but on the previous 30 mile run (on a warm
day - it took 5 hours with navigation on an unmarked XC course), I found
that I went through 3.5L of water whilst a guy running with me went
though about 1L.

1L is way too little. He had to be waaaay dehydrated at the end. I
usually average close to a L an hour. On a hot summer race in the
mountains, I've consumed about 2L in an hour.

At that level of H20 consumption, you should replenish salt -- look up
Succeed Caps for the product and some really enlightening articles. If
you get behind the salt curve, you'll be nauseated *and* dehydrated, a
nasty combination on an ultra.

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Not a problem on the course I'm training for (5x10mile loops with aid at
each loop), but is there any way to train to get by on less

Aid every 10 miles is sparse -- that's 1:45 at 50 mile pace. Are you
setup to carry 2 bottles?

Good luck,

Cheers

Quoted message said:

Dan

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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As for food eat early. 30 miles and not much food is a BIG
difference than 50 miles. Bonking is not much fun and junp you way
past 10 hours.

Yes, I do admit that I should have eaten more on the other run, but
like I mentioned, I was running with people who had done it many times
before, and I think they were better able to cope with it.

To be honest I don't think one gets any better at coping with fluids in
endurance running. I've been doing this for about 18 years and I think
my consumption has been fairly consistent. I have friends that have been
running longer then me and they still need to carry a 55 gallon barrel
to keep hydrated. The goal is to know thyself.

I usually try to eat and

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drink a lot and will certainly be carrying at least 1L for each 10
mile lap and drinking an extra 500mL at least at the aid station. My
plan - whch seems to work in training - is to drink a carb free
electrolyte drink

Isn't a carb free electrolyte drink flavored water? 🙂

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as I go round and get my sugars / carb from food.

That's fine, some people do plain water and get their carbs from food.
Remember to take some with you since you are 10 miles between aid
station visits.

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This is partly because I prefer the clean taste of the electrolyte
mix, and partly because eating makes me happy!

I'm with you on this one - I run to eat. What you haven't covered is NA
aka salt. If your race is in cool weather then it is less of an issue
but still not to be ignored. The aid stations tables on this side of
pond put out a dish of salt with a plate of cooked potatoes to dip and
eat. With your aid stations 10 miles apart that's a long stretch
between opportunities assuming they have it. Toss in the fact that doing
electrolyte free fluid meaning zero salt, you may be looking for trouble
getting all you salt from on;y food. Degrees of hyponatremia is very
common ultra runs.

I would strongly suggest some investigation into your salt intake and
test it out in a training run. Without they correct sodium balance in
your stomach, the fluids do not empty, you get bloated and at that point
are in deep [censored], so to speak. Most of us are SUCCEED!caps users. See
http://www.succeedscaps.com/index.html for products and information.
By the way the caps were designed by a ultra runner for ultra runners. I
have no financial interest just and avid user of the products. Since
they are in a capsule they have no salt taste and you can take them when
you need to and not wait for an aid station.

Not to beat the horse but a training run of 25-30 is fine but let's
just say "[censored] happens" especailly in that last 20 where you have not
been before. This is typically wherethe gods can bite you in the butt if
you have been lax on eating and hydrating. Of course it will also nip at
you if you go out too fast. At the risk of boring the others, find a
pace that feels good and then run SLOWER. Saving energy for the last
10-15 miles takes real discipline. If you get to that point and your
glycogen stores are near empty, prep for a long slow arduous walk. It's
better to finish the first and say I could have run faster. The
corollary will be more obvious. 😉 If your experienced friends are
there, avoid them. When the guns goes off do your own thing and don't
get caught up running hair faster with friends.

By the way, what race are you doing? What is the total elevation gain
and loss for the race? The answer goes back to your original question
about appropriate miles. I'm sure you know, not all miles are the same.

-Doug

Doug Freese said:

Most of us are SUCCEED!caps users. Seehttp://www.succeedscaps.com/index.html >for products and information.

Leave it to Doug to recommend viagra for ulta runs.

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this race flat? How many cumulative feet of climb?

I would call it undulating countryside. The 50miler has just under
8,000ft of climbing in fairly equally distributed gradients. I have
nothing to campare this with and can't easily train on the course, so I'm
just doing whatever hills I can include in my runs - to put it in
perspective, the biggest hill near me is 700ft in 2 miles. I did a
marathon not long back with 7500ft of ascent, so I'm working on the basis
that this will be half as steep!

Something is off here. What marathon was that? That's actually a huge amount
of climb for a marathon, unless it's a 'mountain' marathon. A decent sized
hill I drive up to the Catskills to do repeats on is about 1350' gain in 2.5
miles. We commonly do four trips, for 5400' in 20 miles - and that's ALL up
and down the hill, some of it rather steep. For a 50 miler, at least one run
will be longer than that, with as many hills as possible. For example, I
think last year it was 27 miles with over 6000' of climb, and that was a bit
too short.

I've run the Vermont 50 miler a couple of times, and it has 8500' to 9000'
of climb. I won't say it's all mountains, but it's pretty much all up and
down all day. If you don't train a *great* deal on hills, your quads will be
toast 1/2 way in, meaning you won't be able to run downhill. In my first 50,
admittedly unprepared, that happened to me 35 miles in, and I was going down
hills backwards after that.

If all you have close is that 700' hill, then if I were you, I would do my
next long runs just running up and down that! Better yet, find a bigger,
slightly steeper hill. In the race, I would start out deliberately slow,
making a point to eat and socialize with others for the first 15-20 miles.
If you feel good at 30, maintain, and if you still feel good at 40, pick it
up slightly and start passing some people - that's great fun at the end of
an ultra, passing while others are slowing down.

-Tony

Tony S. said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this race flat? How many cumulative feet of climb?

I would call it undulating countryside. The 50miler has just under
8,000ft of climbing in fairly equally distributed gradients. I have
nothing to campare this with and can't easily train on the course, so I'm
just doing whatever hills I can include in my runs - to put it in
perspective, the biggest hill near me is 700ft in 2 miles. I did a
marathon not long back with 7500ft of ascent, so I'm working on the basis
that this will be half as steep!

Something is off here. What marathon was that? That's actually a huge amount
of climb for a marathon, unless it's a 'mountain' marathon.

Might be Pikes Peak, at least that's what I was assuming - listed as
7815ft of ascent on their web page. Most of the rolling hill marathons
(like Equinox) have 3-4000ft.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would call it undulating countryside. The 50miler has just under
8,000ft of climbing in fairly equally distributed gradients. I have
nothing to campare this with and can't easily train on the course, so I'm
just doing whatever hills I can include in my runs - to put it in
perspective, the biggest hill near me is 700ft in 2 miles. I did a
marathon not long back with 7500ft of ascent, so I'm working on the basis
that this will be half as steep!

Something is off here. What marathon was that? That's actually a huge
amount of climb for a marathon, unless it's a 'mountain' marathon. A
decent sized hill I drive up to the Catskills to do repeats on is about
1350' gain in 2.5 miles. We commonly do four trips, for 5400' in 20
miles - and that's ALL up and down the hill, some of it rather steep. For
a 50 miler, at least one run will be longer than that, with as many hills
as possible. For example, I think last year it was 27 miles with over
6000' of climb, and that was a bit too short.

It was called the 'Tough Challenge Marathon' and was 21 laps of a 1.2 mile
course, off-road, basically up and down a bit hill with just shy of 100m
climb per lap. THAT was tough! Quads well and truely mashed by the end.
Winner did it in 4:12 and I limped in behind him in 4:30.

Quoted message said:

I've run the Vermont 50 miler a couple of times, and it has 8500' to 9000'
of climb. I won't say it's all mountains, but it's pretty much all up and
down all day. If you don't train a *great* deal on hills, your quads will
be toast 1/2 way in, meaning you won't be able to run downhill. In my
first 50, admittedly unprepared, that happened to me 35 miles in, and I
was going down hills backwards after that.

Ouch!

Quoted message said:

If all you have close is that 700' hill, then if I were you, I would do my
next long runs just running up and down that! Better yet, find a bigger,
slightly steeper hill. In the race, I would start out deliberately slow,
making a point to eat and socialize with others for the first 15-20 miles.
If you feel good at 30, maintain, and if you still feel good at 40, pick
it up slightly and start passing some people - that's great fun at the end
of an ultra, passing while others are slowing down.

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to try to split it into 15 miles chunks.
First 15 I want to be frustratingly slow. Second 15 I want to run easily
and try to eat / drink as much as possible. By the last 15 I want to be
getting into it and I figure the last 5 will happen, one way or another!