Ullrich type vs. Armstrong type

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TourdeForce2424
Lance Armstrong pedals with a hig cadence rate on lighter gears. because it behooves him to do so (because of his insansely high VO2Max). However it has been said that Ullrich is the physically superior of the two by far. For someone who is built bigger and doesnt have the high VO2max, would it be better to take the Ullrich approach and pedal with the big chain ring and smaller cogs? Also, if you were to take this approach, would this mean training endurance-wise in the winter with the bigger gears too? Thanks.

Ullrich and Armstrong are about the same size, in fact Ullrich is possible slightly lighter than Armstrong. It's highly likely they will both have the same or very similar VO2 max and power outputs.

What are *you* trying to achieve; what are your goals? Don't blindly copy what the pros do and don't do!

Ric

Actually, Ullrich is much more heavier muscled than Armstrong, and that is a fact. I was wondering if anyone knows the way Ullrich trains? There is so much material on Lance, but very little on Ullrich.

I doubt Ullrich is either heavier or has more muscle (as a % of total body mass) than Armstrong. Perhaps, you could explain how this is a 'fact'?

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ricstern
I doubt Ullrich is either heavier or has more muscle (as a % of total body mass) than Armstrong. Perhaps, you could explain how this is a 'fact'?

Slightly related, but did you see the 2003 TdF coverage on ITV2? Phil Ligget and Paul Sherwen, who I think are good commentators, up to the point where Paul Sherwen commented while they were riding a mountain that Lance weighed about 72kg but Ullrich was 80kg! Total rubbish. I couldn't believe someone with Paul's experience and intelligence came out with such junk.

From what I've read, I believe Ullrich is 6', so slightly taller than Lance (5' 10/11"😉? Considering all the stories about Ullrich struggling with weight, his racing weight is 73kg and he looked good at that weight, unlike Lance this year who looked very drawn at 72/73kg. Maybe Lance struggled to reach the same level this year and tried to shed extra weight to compensate (ie. achieve the same W/kg for the mountain)?

Lance has always been a muscley rider from before his cancer treatment. No doubt he lost a lot of weight and muscle mass with the treatment, but he still seems a smaller 'stockier' (ie. more musclely) rider than Ullrich.

just to clarify, the TdF site and UCI data have JU either the same mass or a kg lighter than LA.

This can also be confirmed by the physics of cycling: we know that within a few seconds LA and JU are doing the same time for a TT, thus, if there aerodynamics are similar they must be producing the same power.

when climbing mountains, if they're power is the same (see above), then any differences between the two are mainly differences in mass (and obviously fatigue, which is likely seen when one attacks more than at a constant effort). As they climb at pretty much the same level (give or take a few secs) then as there power is the same (see TT stuff above), then their mass must be the same.

As their mass and power are the same or very similar then it's likely they'll have similar amounts of muscle (and thus bf%).

ric

Thanks for clearing this up, but no one has answered my other question. Since Ullrich pedals differently at a slower cadence how does this affect his training program?

i'm not exactly sure what you're trying to ascertain? perhaps you can clarify what it is you're trying to find out

ric

Just wondering if anyone knows how Ullrich trains, because I am fairly certain it is different than Armstrong. Armstrong in his latest book states that Ullrich is "a big guy who churns the pedals." I would just like to know what he does in order to be able to do this on steep grades.

within normal pedalling ranges, cadence is pretty much a red herring. i think pedalling at a slightly lower cadence (JU) than LA won't impact or alter training in any particular way.

In reality the most important aspect is the power that you produce under given conditions. the amount of power that you produce will influence the cadence, because power will be related to velocity (i.e., under given conditions you travel faster at higher power compared to lower power).

therefore, amateur cyclists (or people who produce less power) will be limited at what cadence they ride at, because most people use the same sized gears, many people might not have lower than e.g. 39 x 23. This might be what the pros use in e.g. the Alps.

within small variations of pedal speed such as that exhibited between JU and LA the pedal forces are going to be very similar, and are in fact very low (i.e., most sedentary people will be able to produce these forces).

ric

Thanks again "cycling coach" for not answering my question. Basically, you just told me that when you produce more power, you will go faster (gee whiz, I didnt know that!!!!!) and that someone who sits in front of the TV eating Doritos and watching reruns of MASH will be able to produce as much pedal force as Lance Armstrong. With coaching knowledge like this, I think you should write your own book.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TourdeForce2424
Just wondering if anyone knows how Ullrich trains, because I am fairly certain it is different than Armstrong. Armstrong in his latest book states that Ullrich is "a big guy who churns the pedals." I would just like to know what he does in order to be able to do this on steep grades.

I doubt anyone here knows how Ullrich trains, or for that matter *exactly* how Armstrong does.

"churning" the pedals over at a normal cadence (a la JU) doesn't require any specialist training. even pedalling at very low cadences doesn't require any specialist work. find a hill and ride up it in an abnormal gear (e.g., 53 x 17 as opposed to 42 x 21) most people can do this (especially on the grades seen in the TdF).

Training to increase your power at LT, VO2 max is the important factor.

ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TourdeForce2424
Just wondering if anyone knows how Ullrich trains, because I am fairly certain it is different than Armstrong. Armstrong in his latest book states that Ullrich is "a big guy who churns the pedals." I would just like to know what he does in order to be able to do this on steep grades.

Oi, Ric has answered your question! Read his reply before getting stroppy! Ric gives a lot of a free advice on here and I for one think you are being very unfair to him! Give the guy a break, he makes no money from spending his time replying to your messages!

If it needs spelling out... You're saying the two riders differ in cadence and so must train differently? Ric has said they're both very similar physically, therefore produce very similar power at LT/VO2max. Their cadences differ, but both (85rpm vs. 95-100rpm?) are within normal ranges, so no special training is required. Their cadence is just what each prefers. The training would be no different.

The important thing is producing, say 400W for ~30mins, whether thats applied by fast or slightly slower cadence. The important training is that which raises LT and VO2max. If you can improve these then you're away. Let cadence naturally find it's own level. There's no point training at 85rpm or 100rpm if that's not suitable for you. You will need to find your own cadence that produces the most power for the associated metabolic cost (e.g. breathing/heart rate).

Thanks, I guess I just didnt understand the way Ric was wording it. What you are both saying now makes perfect sense to me. Thanks again.

Re: your comment
"Thanks again "cycling coach" for not answering my question. Basically, you just told me that when you produce more power, you will go faster (gee whiz, I didnt know that!!!!!)"

I, for one, admire the effort Ric puts into this forum. The thanks at the end is nice, but there is no need for the attitude.

I, for one, admire the effort Ric puts into this forum. The thanks at the end is nice, but there is no need for the attitude. [/QUOTE]

I am relatively new to the boards, and didn't realize that Ric was a moderator, or the extent of the knowledge which he shares. I apologized and moved on. You should too.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by TourdeForce2424
I, for one, admire the effort Ric puts into this forum. The thanks at the end is nice, but there is no need for the attitude.

I am relatively new to the boards, and didn't realize that Ric was a moderator, or the extent of the knowledge which he shares. I apologized and moved on. You should too. [/QUOTE]

agreed! happy riding and enjoy the boards. they are superb.