Frozen Stem Again

With regard to the Sheldon Brown article I am refering to the last 2
paragraphs.
"Neil Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear All,
I have problem with a stem frozen in a threadless headset. I took up the
suggestion of freezing with CO2 on the outside to no effect. I'll try
tomorrow spraying on the inside. However, I fear that the stem will
require a hacksaw.
How well would the method described in this article by Sheldon Brown
transfer to the situation of an aluminium stem frozen in a Steel
Threadless Headset. Should I try this my self? And by the way where might
a get some ammonium another solution he mentions.
http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
Thanks
Neil

Neil Smith said:

With regard to the Sheldon Brown article I am refering to the last 2
paragraphs."Neil Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear All,
I have problem with a stem frozen in a threadless headset. I took up the
suggestion of freezing with CO2 on the outside to no effect. I'll try
tomorrow spraying on the inside. However, I fear that the stem will
require a hacksaw.
How well would the method described in this article by Sheldon Brown
transfer to the situation of an aluminium stem frozen in a Steel
Threadless Headset. Should I try this my self? And by the way where might
a get some ammonium another solution he mentions.
http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
Thanks
Neil

Stem frozen in threadless headset? Or steerer?

Frozen you say? Serves you right for peeing al fresco in this
bloody awful weather.

Oh, wait...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Good point, given that is a quill stem kept in place by an expander bolt.
Logically this will be in the fork steering tube.
"CoyoteBoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Neil Smith said:

With regard to the Sheldon Brown article I am refering to the last 2
paragraphs."Neil Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear All,
I have problem with a stem frozen in a threadless headset. I took up
the
suggestion of freezing with CO2 on the outside to no effect. I'll try
tomorrow spraying on the inside. However, I fear that the stem will
require a hacksaw.
How well would the method described in this article by Sheldon Brown
transfer to the situation of an aluminium stem frozen in a Steel
Threadless Headset. Should I try this my self? And by the way where
might
a get some ammonium another solution he mentions.
http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
Thanks
Neil

Stem frozen in threadless headset? Or steerer?

Neil Smith said:

Good point, given that is a quill stem kept in place by an expander bolt.
Logically this will be in the fork steering tube."CoyoteBoy"

Ahh, I see. I presume you have undone the bolt a little and used a
hammer to tap the other half of the expander bolt down, at least
releasing that force?

Bit of wood, good belt, emptied a can of coolant onto the exterior, still to
try the interior. The hacksaw and file bekons - is this a good idea and what
are the perils.
Thanks
"CoyoteBoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Neil Smith said:

Good point, given that is a quill stem kept in place by an expander bolt.
Logically this will be in the fork steering tube."CoyoteBoy"

Ahh, I see. I presume you have undone the bolt a little and used a
hammer to tap the other half of the expander bolt down, at least
releasing that force?

Neil Smith said:

Bit of wood, good belt, emptied a can of coolant onto the exterior,
still to try the interior. The hacksaw and file bekons - is this a
good idea and what are the perils.

Er, wouldn't cooling the exterior shrink it onto the quill and make it
even harder to release?
Penetrating oil down inside the steering tube, onto the affected bits.
Proper stuff, mind, not WD40.

--
Mike
Van Tuyl titanium Dura ace 10
Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
Raleigh Record sprint mongrel
Huissoon project bike (in bits, natch)

mb said:

Neil Smith said:

Bit of wood, good belt, emptied a can of coolant onto the exterior,
still to try the interior. The hacksaw and file bekons - is this a
good idea and what are the perils.

The coefficient of expansion (And thus contraction) of alu is greater
than steel. If you could cool them both to the same level the alu stem
would shrink away from the steel steerer. However if you only cool
from the outside, the steerer would shrink onto the alu. Ideally
you'd want to cool the stem and heat the steerer. The easist bit to
release will be the little wedge so you'd have to back the clampy bolt
right out, thread it back in by the same distance as its diameter
(approx) and give it a sharp knock with the bare hammer. Prefereably
while heating the steerer and cooling the stem!

I've done the hacksaw trick on a seatpost in an alu frame (all kinds
of chemicals wouldnt shift it) and I managed to remove it without
frame damage but it took HOURS and great care - make sure you use a
torch and keep an eye on how far through the thing you have got <AT
BOTH ENDS!> its easy to forget the far end of the hacksaw. Eventually
I managed to roll it in on itself with mole grips but it shattered
into about 6 pieces and they needed chiselling out individually - yet
more hell. Came very close to binning the £150 frame lol.

Quoted message said:

Er, wouldn't cooling the exterior shrink it onto the quill and make it
even harder to release?

As mentioned above - If the outside cools more than the inside, yes,
if they reached the same temps - no. However this often "cracks" the
join and helps anyway.

Quoted message said:

Penetrating oil down inside the steering tube, onto the affected bits.
Proper stuff, mind, not WD40.

Mouse milk. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/mousemilkoil.php
Recommended to me by an aircraft fitter I know. I've never found a UK
supplier though, despite him using it.

In article <[email hidden]>, Neil Smith
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

And by the way where might a get some
ammonium another solution he mentions.

It used to be common as a household cleaner, and is still available from
'proper' hardware shops, janitorial equipment suppliers, online ...

http://www.avenuesupplies.co.uk/index.php?id=239&pid=5498&sid=1

Thanks for sharing your experience. It confirms what I have heard. That this
is a very difficult and time consuming operation. Plus I believe there are
special risks of damaging the frame as it is the front end. I have had this
frame for 25 years, so I am attached to it, though not as much as the quill.
Plus it is already slightly out of skew.
Did you try ammonium? I wonder where I'll get some.
"CoyoteBoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

mb said:

Neil Smith said:

Bit of wood, good belt, emptied a can of coolant onto the exterior,
still to try the interior. The hacksaw and file bekons - is this a
good idea and what are the perils.

The coefficient of expansion (And thus contraction) of alu is greater
than steel. If you could cool them both to the same level the alu stem
would shrink away from the steel steerer. However if you only cool
from the outside, the steerer would shrink onto the alu. Ideally
you'd want to cool the stem and heat the steerer. The easist bit to
release will be the little wedge so you'd have to back the clampy bolt
right out, thread it back in by the same distance as its diameter
(approx) and give it a sharp knock with the bare hammer. Prefereably
while heating the steerer and cooling the stem!

I've done the hacksaw trick on a seatpost in an alu frame (all kinds
of chemicals wouldnt shift it) and I managed to remove it without
frame damage but it took HOURS and great care - make sure you use a
torch and keep an eye on how far through the thing you have got <AT
BOTH ENDS!> its easy to forget the far end of the hacksaw. Eventually
I managed to roll it in on itself with mole grips but it shattered
into about 6 pieces and they needed chiselling out individually - yet
more hell. Came very close to binning the £150 frame lol.

Quoted message said:

Er, wouldn't cooling the exterior shrink it onto the quill and make it
even harder to release?

As mentioned above - If the outside cools more than the inside, yes,
if they reached the same temps - no. However this often "cracks" the
join and helps anyway.

Quoted message said:

Penetrating oil down inside the steering tube, onto the affected bits.
Proper stuff, mind, not WD40.

Mouse milk. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/mousemilkoil.php
Recommended to me by an aircraft fitter I know. I've never found a UK
supplier though, despite him using it.

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Neil Smith
[email hidden] says...> And by the way where might a get some

Quoted message said:

ammonium another solution he mentions.

It used to be common as a household cleaner, and is still available from
'proper' hardware shops, janitorial equipment suppliers, online ...

http://www.avenuesupplies.co.uk/index.php?id=239&pid=5498&sid=1

Although it should, I couldnt get this to work - despite a couple of
days of repeated soaking in it. I presume the solution couldnt get
past the first area and so didnt even get part way to the main bulk of
the proble,

In article <[email hidden]>, Neil Smith
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. It confirms what I have heard. That this
is a very difficult and time consuming operation. Plus I believe there are
special risks of damaging the frame as it is the front end.

It's not really difficult or dangerous, it just requires a little care
and quite a lot of patience. There's absolutely no risk of damaging the
frame - once you've decapitated the stem you can remove the forks and
stick them in a vice. Or take them to a framebuilder who will probably
remove the stem for around £20.

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Neil Smith
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. It confirms what I have heard. Thatthis
is a very difficult and time consuming operation. Plus I believe there are
special risks of damaging the frame as it is the front end.

It's not really difficult or dangerous, it just requires a little care
and quite a lot of patience. There's absolutely no risk of damaging the
frame - once you've decapitated the stem you can remove the forks and
stick them in a vice. Or take them to a framebuilder who will probably
remove the stem for around £20.

Seconded - cut the stem off, get the fork out of the frame, strip it
down, then go to work on it. You'll have more room to work, and if
somthing does go wrong, you'll "only" damage the fork (assuming that
the stem is a goner already).

Also seconded - let the oil do the work. Plug the end of the stem,
put the assembly upside down in a vice, fill the steerer tube with
light penetrating fluid, leave it alone for a few days, the try again.

If you have a scrap fork with the same size steerer tube, or a length
of tubing with the same inside diameter, you can use that with the old
stem bold and wedge nut to build a puller.

Get a length of said tubing 1/2" longer than the length of the exposed
length of the stump of the stem.

Put it over the exposed end of the stump so it sits on the steerer.
Now take the old stem bolt, add a suitable washer so that it can't
fall into the new "steerer tube extension", put it down through the
centre of the stem. Turn the old wedge nut "upside down", so that it
will no longer jam the ned of the stem, and thread it back onto the
bolt in the steerer tube. You may have to shorten the length of the
piece of tube you added so that the stem bolt is long enough to allow
the old wedge nut to be threaded on.

Tighten up the stem bolt above the washer. The tension on the bolt is
now trying to pull the stump of the stem out of the steerer, and up
into the extra piece of tube you added. You may have to jam the
reversed wedge nut with an old screwdriver or similar to prevent it
rotating in the steerer.

Wind on slowly, and continue to add penetrating oil top and bottom,
leaving time for it to work in before winding on a few more turns.

The sustained preassure of this approach has worked for me on one
occasion where trying to tap the stump out with a drift has failed.

hth,

bookieb

Thanks for all the helpful and knowledgeable suggestions. The most useful
one was the framebuilder. The reason for stripping it down was to have the
dear old frame ( the places we been together!) resprayed. It seems the metal
place handles this routine - excellent.
Thanks again.
Neil
"Neil Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear All,
I have problem with a stem frozen in a threadless headset. I took up the
suggestion of freezing with CO2 on the outside to no effect. I'll try
tomorrow spraying on the inside. However, I fear that the stem will
require a hacksaw.
How well would the method described in this article by Sheldon Brown
transfer to the situation of an aluminium stem frozen in a Steel
Threadless Headset. Should I try this my self? And by the way where might
a get some ammonium another solution he mentions.
http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
Thanks
Neil

In article <[email hidden]>, Neil Smith
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for all the helpful and knowledgeable suggestions. The most useful
one was the framebuilder. The reason for stripping it down was to have the
dear old frame ( the places we been together!) resprayed. It seems the metal
place handles this routine - excellent.

Hehe. :-) I think this serves as a useful illustration of something,
but I'm not quite sure what - maybe that you should focus on what you
are trying to achieve rather than diving in to technical details about
why you can't achieve it.

Should anyone be still watching this thread, I took the frame into the
framebuilder who explained to me how he gets stems and seat posts out.
He saws the stem of, pulls the fork out and applies heat. It pops out after
that, much easier than trying to extract mechanically.
Thanks again.
"Neil Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear All,
I have problem with a stem frozen in a threadless headset. I took up the
suggestion of freezing with CO2 on the outside to no effect. I'll try
tomorrow spraying on the inside. However, I fear that the stem will
require a hacksaw.
How well would the method described in this article by Sheldon Brown
transfer to the situation of an aluminium stem frozen in a Steel
Threadless Headset. Should I try this my self? And by the way where might
a get some ammonium another solution he mentions.
http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html
Thanks
Neil