Radio 4 this afternoon on bicycle stability. No idea if it worthwhile.

(Roger Merriman) said:

Marz said:

(Roger Merriman) said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> On 26 Jul, 15:10, Duncan Smith <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On the subject of radio, does anyone confess to listening while
> > riding? I'm not talking about stereo music in both ears, but just
> > some gentle talk on radio 4 in the left ear only - keeping the right
> > ear free and open for traffic.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Yes, a lot of the time - I listen to the radio when I commute by car,
> so why not on a bike. More often 5 live than radio 4. Used to be both
> ears until one earpiece packed up, now just one ear, which doesn't
> seem to make any difference to anything for mono radio. I've never
> been surprised by something coming up behind me that I should have
> heard but didn't because of the radio.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in a car you can see behind at all times, on a bike to do so means
riding blind forward for some time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thus being able to hear "oh thats a car" is very handy stops you being
suprised.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thus it's never seemed a wise move.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

snips

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Rob

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

roger
--www.rogermerriman.com

Quoted message said:

I still don't understand people who seem to need their ears to ride a
bicycle. What are you listening for? Do you change your riding style
or position in the road when you hear a car coming? By riding on the
road the assumption is that at some point (or multiple points) along
that ride you will be passed by a car/truck/motorbike/bus so you ride
accordingly. Maybe you have special powers of hearing where you can
determine whether the car behind is going to pass to one side or drive
straight into the back of you. When you make a turn in the road, do
you listen to see if the road's clear or look? If you're really
worried about what's behind you get a mirror.

it means that you can normally tell, size, speed and distance of whats
behind you, useful as a mirror is unlikely to work well and turning to
look means that for x amount of time your travelling blind.

roger
--www.rogermerriman.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And by knowing the size, speed and distance of the vehicle behind
you're going to adjust your riding how? Do you ride in the middle of
the road until you hear a car coming?

Looking behind means you're traveling blind, wtf, so you never blink
for x amout of time or look at anything other than straight ahead.

When turning across traffic, do you look behind first or do you trust
those super ears of yours?

Marz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1188395938.139933.66550
@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

And by knowing the size, speed and distance of the vehicle behind
you're going to adjust your riding how? Do you ride in the middle of
the road until you hear a car coming?

Perhaps you should read what Cyclecraft has to say on the subject, but
here's a for-instance:

If I'm approaching a build-out, central refuge, or other pinch point and
I hear a car behind me, the engine note etc. gives me a good idea whether
I need to protect myself by taking the primary riding position. I'll
always confirm by using my mirror and/or looking over my shoulder, but
hearing the approaching vehicle is as important in the first instance as
seeing it.

Also, the sound the vehicle makes tells me a lot about the attitude of
the driver. Although not universally true, high revs that are increasing
suggests an impatient or aggressive driver; high revs that are steady
suggests someone with hearing difficulties - possible elderly and
possibly on a cocktail of drugs. If the approaching engine note "backs
off" it is very likely the driver will be courteous and give me all the
room I need without my actually needing to take it.

And for info, sometimes (particularly on left-hand bends on country
roads) I do ride in the middle of the road. I do this to position myself
so that other road users can see me earlier and take appropriate action.
I move back to the secondary riding position when I can see the
approaching vehicle in my mirror (and so have a good chance of being
seen) and provided it's safe to be overtaken.

--
Geoff

In message <[email hidden]>
Geoff Lane <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

If the approaching engine note "backs
off" it is very likely the driver will be courteous and give me all the
room I need without my actually needing to take it.

[snip]

The sound of this courtesy also enables cyclists to acknowledge it,
perhaps by raised hand, once the pinchpoint or whatever is passed.

--
Charles
Brompton P-type T6 in Motspur Park

Quoting Marz <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

accordingly. Maybe you have special powers of hearing where you can
determine whether the car behind is going to pass to one side or drive
straight into the back of you.

It doesn't take special powers of hearing to recognise "small engine,
turbo, high revs" and know a chavmobile's approaching.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Sunday, August - a weekend.

Geoff Lane said:

Marz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1188395938.139933.66550
@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

And by knowing the size, speed and distance of the vehicle behind
you're going to adjust your riding how? Do you ride in the middle of
the road until you hear a car coming?

Perhaps you should read what Cyclecraft has to say on the subject, but
here's a for-instance:

If I'm approaching a build-out, central refuge, or other pinch point and
I hear a car behind me, the engine note etc. gives me a good idea whether
I need to protect myself by taking the primary riding position. I'll
always confirm by using my mirror and/or looking over my shoulder, but
hearing the approaching vehicle is as important in the first instance as
seeing it.

A look over the shoulder and a visual check of what's behind me before
a pinch point lets me know whether the white van behind me is either
going to pull in behind me or floor it to attempt to squeeze in before
the central refuge. The same way one would check before going around a
lone parked car or slower cyclist.

Quoted message said:

Also, the sound the vehicle makes tells me a lot about the attitude of
the driver. Although not universally true, high revs that are increasing
suggests an impatient or aggressive driver; high revs that are steady
suggests someone with hearing difficulties - possible elderly and
possibly on a cocktail of drugs. If the approaching engine note "backs
off" it is very likely the driver will be courteous and give me all the
room I need without my actually needing to take it.

I don't really care about the attitude of the driver behind me. I'm
entitled to be on the road, I'm riding in a legal manner and the
responsibilty for the car to pass me safely lies with the driver and
not me. And a driver backing off to give you room is not being
courteous, that's how one is supposed to drive. The ones I hate the
most are nervous drivers, chav's will rip past you at high speed which
only inches to spare, but they don't want to scratch that new paint
job. Normal drivers will pass where they can,muttering something about
fecking cyclists under their breath. The nervous one's will sit there
for miles, waiting for a straight clear section of at least 500 yards
before moving past with a 15ft gap. I have in the past, once I've
noticed them there, moved out of the way, but only when I've found a
safe space to do so. And not to appease the driver behind me, but for
the 20 cars behind them.

Quoted message said:

And for info, sometimes (particularly on left-hand bends on country
roads) I do ride in the middle of the road. I do this to position myself
so that other road users can see me earlier and take appropriate action.
I move back to the secondary riding position when I can see the
approaching vehicle in my mirror (and so have a good chance of being
seen) and provided it's safe to be overtaken.

Good point on taking a wider line on twisty country lanes, yes,you
want to be more visible in a corner, give yourself a better view
around the corner (watching for peds, horses, etc) and also carry more
speed through the corner. But again, a quick look over the shoulder
before entering the corner gives me all the info I need to know in how
to position myself.

Quoted message said:

--
Geoff

On Aug 29, 10:31 am, David Damerell <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoting Marz <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

accordingly. Maybe you have special powers of hearing where you can
determine whether the car behind is going to pass to one side or drive
straight into the back of you.

It doesn't take special powers of hearing to recognise "small engine,
turbo, high revs" and know a chavmobile's approaching.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Sunday, August - a weekend.

Again the question, how would you react? Would you dive for cover into
the hedge, clearing the road for Sir Chav, slow down and [censored] em' off
some more, speed up (not that easy), move closer to the side of the
road, possibly putting yourself in more danger. If you are already
riding in the safest position to be on that section of road (primary,
secondary, whatever) what could you change just because you perceive
there to be a twit behind you?

CoyoteBoy said:

(Roger Merriman) said:

Marz said:

On Jul 31, 6:26 am, [email hidden] (Roger Merriman) wrote:
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On 26 Jul, 15:10, Duncan Smith <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > On the subject of radio, does anyone confess to listening while
> > > riding? I'm not talking about stereo music in both ears, but just
> > > some gentle talk on radio 4 in the left ear only - keeping the right
> > > ear free and open for traffic.

Quoted message said:

> > Yes, a lot of the time - I listen to the radio when I commute by car,
> > so why not on a bike. More often 5 live than radio 4. Used to be both
> > ears until one earpiece packed up, now just one ear, which doesn't
> > seem to make any difference to anything for mono radio. I've never
> > been surprised by something coming up behind me that I should have
> > heard but didn't because of the radio.

Quoted message said:

> in a car you can see behind at all times, on a bike to do so means
> riding blind forward for some time.

Quoted message said:

> thus being able to hear "oh thats a car" is very handy stops you being
> suprised.

Quoted message said:

> thus it's never seemed a wise move.

Quoted message said:

> snips

Quoted message said:

> > Rob

Quoted message said:

> roger
> --www.rogermerriman.com

Quoted message said:

I still don't understand people who seem to need their ears to ride a
bicycle. What are you listening for? Do you change your riding style
or position in the road when you hear a car coming? By riding on the
road the assumption is that at some point (or multiple points) along
that ride you will be passed by a car/truck/motorbike/bus so you ride
accordingly. Maybe you have special powers of hearing where you can
determine whether the car behind is going to pass to one side or drive
straight into the back of you. When you make a turn in the road, do
you listen to see if the road's clear or look? If you're really
worried about what's behind you get a mirror.

it means that you can normally tell, size, speed and distance of whats
behind you, useful as a mirror is unlikely to work well and turning to
look means that for x amount of time your travelling blind.

roger
--www.rogermerriman.com

I dont think its a case of riding without ears being a problem, i
think you just have to recognise that if you are going to ride without
ears (or with them plugged) that you will have to be extra cautious in
compensation. I'm happy to ride with earphones in, because I check
round more often, especially when turning right. Its very easy to hear
traffic coming up from behind but its unquantifiable in my mind - you
cant rely on it to tell you where and when and how big something is,
you still need to look to be sure - it just reduces the element of
suprise. Turning to look hardly takes a fraction of a second - if it
were that dangerous we wouldnt all be encouraged to use mirrors when
driving vehicles at 70mph.

looking in ones's mirrors takes a fration of the time it takes to look
around on the bike, looking in ones mirrors is a essentally close to
zero risk manover while looking behind is not. it needs to be done
sometimes but one should make sure it's safe as you cover some distance
while looking behind.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

Marz <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

A look over the shoulder and a visual check of what's behind me before
a pinch point lets me know whether the white van behind me is either
going to pull in behind me or floor it to attempt to squeeze in before
the central refuge. The same way one would check before going around a
lone parked car or slower cyclist.

A glance over the shoulder does not give me full information. A quick look
doesn't let me accurately gauge the speed etc. of an approaching vehicle
and properly plan to deal with the hazard. OTOH, listening to the sound of
the approaching vehicle imparts much information before I even see it, thus
requiring me to take my attention from the road ahead for less time. YMMV,
but I'd find it more difficult to handle traffic I couldn't hear.

Quoted message said:

I don't really care about the attitude of the driver behind me.

I do. The driver's attitude is a big determinant as to how he or she will
treat me, and the attitude I perceive determines how I respond to that
driver's presence.

Quoted message said:

I'm entitled to be on the road, I'm riding in a legal manner and the
responsibilty for the car to pass me safely lies with the driver and
not me.

While that might be true it doesn't hurt to massage the odds in your
favour. At pinch-points and other marginal areas, drivers overtake me with
my permission. I give that permission implicitly by moving out of their
way. If I feel that a driver overtaking me might be dangerous, I don't
allow the overtake. For example, I've been "squeezed" too many times by
buses that half overtake and then pull into a bus stop with me still
alongside their rear wheel - so I move to the primary position if there's a
bus behind me on the approach to a bus-stop and so prevent the bus from
overtaking.

Quoted message said:

And a driver backing off to give you room is not being courteous,
that's how one is supposed to drive.

Perhaps, but negotiating for road space is part of getting through city
traffic. It's often something you have to do (say) if you need to cross two
or three lanes of traffic to turn right at a junction. Identifying which
drivers are more likely to be receptive to negotiation is a very worthwile
skill - and courteous drivers tend to more readily defer to a cyclist IME.
(And are more likely to give a friendly wave back to acknowledge your
thanks!)

--
Geoff

(Roger Merriman) said:

looking in ones's mirrors takes a fration of the time it takes to look
around on the bike,

Yes, maybe half.

Quoted message said:

looking in ones mirrors is a essentally close to
zero risk manover while looking behind is not.

Can you explain how you come to that thought?

Quoted message said:

it needs to be done
sometimes but one should make sure it's safe as you cover some distance
while looking behind.

Naturally, so one could say that people who look over their shoulders
instead of using ears tend to be safer as they a) have to make sure
its safe to look before looking, b) have actual visual contact with
the surroundings, not just guessing from auditory information. 🙂

Marz said:

On Aug 29, 8:26 am, [email hidden] (Ekul

Namsob) said:

Marz said:

I still don't understand people who seem to need their ears to ride a
bicycle. What are you listening for?

How do you notice sirens?

Quoted message said:

By hearing them over the loud music, same as horns. It's quite
possible to have music playing, but still be able to hear sirens or
horns. Have you not noticed how sirens tend to be a bit louded than
car engine noise?

No. I tend to be listening to Led Zeppelin far too loudly in the car.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

Roger Merriman said:

looking in ones's mirrors takes a fration of the time it takes to look
around on the bike, looking in ones mirrors is a essentally close to
zero risk manover while looking behind is not. it needs to be done
sometimes but one should make sure it's safe as you cover some distance
while looking behind.

If you change the direction you are looking, it takes a
minimum of 1/3 of a second to focus on, and the brain to
process what you are looking at.

To look behind, you have to turn your head, look for a
minimum of 1/3 s, then turn forward again.

To look in a mirror, you have to look at the mirror, if
you know exactly where this is it will take 1/3 s. Then
once looking at the mirror, you will need another 1/3 s to
process the information in the mirror.

TBH, I think that these times are comparable for the
average person.

Marz said:

Geoff Lane said:

Marz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1188395938.139933.66550
@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

And by knowing the size, speed and distance of the vehicle behind
you're going to adjust your riding how? Do you ride in the middle of
the road until you hear a car coming?

Perhaps you should read what Cyclecraft has to say on the subject, but
here's a for-instance:

If I'm approaching a build-out, central refuge, or other pinch point and
I hear a car behind me, the engine note etc. gives me a good idea whether
I need to protect myself by taking the primary riding position. I'll
always confirm by using my mirror and/or looking over my shoulder, but
hearing the approaching vehicle is as important in the first instance as
seeing it.

A look over the shoulder and a visual check of what's behind me before
a pinch point lets me know whether the white van behind me is either
going to pull in behind me or floor it to attempt to squeeze in before
the central refuge. The same way one would check before going around a
lone parked car or slower cyclist.

95% of the time I can get as much information listening to
the traffic behind me, as I can get by looking behind.
This information is qualitavely slightly different from
the info gained by looking, but I get this information in
real time whilst looking ahead.

If I need to look behind then I will, but I will usually
have some picture of what is going on behind before I
look, this helps immensely.

Martin.

Marz said:

And by knowing the size, speed and distance of the vehicle behind
you're going to adjust your riding how? Do you ride in the middle of
the road until you hear a car coming?

Looking behind means you're traveling blind, wtf, so you never blink
for x amout of time or look at anything other than straight ahead.

When turning across traffic, do you look behind first or do you trust
those super ears of yours?

When turning across traffic, I always listen before
looking. If I look, and choose a gap, I then use my ear to
judge when that gap is expected to come before looking again.

Marz said:

By hearing them over the loud music, same as horns. It's quite
possible to have music playing, but still be able to hear sirens or
horns. Have you not noticed how sirens tend to be a bit louded than
car engine noise?

I can often here sirens (at a guess) over a mile away. If
I was listening to the Glorious Ninth on my MP3 player, I
probably would not here the siren till it was 50 yards away.

Quoting Marz <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On Aug 29, 10:31 am, David Damerell <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

It doesn't take special powers of hearing to recognise "small engine,
turbo, high revs" and know a chavmobile's approaching.

[Trim the quoted text, please]

Quoted message said:

Again the question, how would you react?

Well, that depends on the situation, but I'd be ready _to_ react. For
example, if I was approaching a constriction in the road, I'd consider
speeding up or slowing down so as not to arrive at the same time.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Sunday, August - a weekend.

David Damerell said:

It doesn't take special powers of hearing to recognise "small engine, turbo, high revs" and know a chavmobile's approaching.

Chavmobile?

CoyoteBoy said:

(Roger Merriman) said:

looking in ones's mirrors takes a fration of the time it takes to look
around on the bike,

Yes, maybe half.

a lot less than that for most, and it can be done a lot more frequently.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

looking in ones mirrors is a essentally close to
zero risk manover while looking behind is not.

Can you explain how you come to that thought?

you are still looking in about the right direction, thus you can go from
mirror to windscreen, very quickly. most people flick between i would
guess. i certinaly do in car, keeping a eye on what if any thing is
happening behind and to the sides.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it needs to be done
sometimes but one should make sure it's safe as you cover some distance
while looking behind.

Naturally, so one could say that people who look over their shoulders
instead of using ears tend to be safer as they a) have to make sure
its safe to look before looking, b) have actual visual contact with
the surroundings, not just guessing from auditory information. 🙂

no becuase to look behind you have to attaully make sence you have to
travel for some time and distance blind infront.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

Marz said:

(Roger Merriman) said:

Marz said:

On Jul 31, 6:26 am, [email hidden] (Roger Merriman) wrote:

long needed snips.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it means that you can normally tell, size, speed and distance of whats
behind you, useful as a mirror is unlikely to work well and turning to
look means that for x amount of time your travelling blind.

roger
--www.rogermerriman.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And by knowing the size, speed and distance of the vehicle behind
you're going to adjust your riding how? Do you ride in the middle of
the road until you hear a car coming?

it tells me if there is a bus, as cars very rarely if ever cause me
trouble but buses are driven by well bus drivers. and can't be trusted,
thus if there is squeeze point i can make a block/allow choice.

Quoted message said:

Looking behind means you're traveling blind, wtf, so you never blink
for x amout of time or look at anything other than straight ahead.

a blink is momentry, turning behind is a lot lot longer.

Quoted message said:

When turning across traffic, do you look behind first or do you trust
those super ears of yours?

un huh.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

Martin Dann said:

Roger Merriman said:

looking in ones's mirrors takes a fration of the time it takes to look
around on the bike, looking in ones mirrors is a essentally close to
zero risk manover while looking behind is not. it needs to be done
sometimes but one should make sure it's safe as you cover some distance
while looking behind.

If you change the direction you are looking, it takes a
minimum of 1/3 of a second to focus on, and the brain to
process what you are looking at.

forward to rear mirror isn't much. you can certianly drive along, while
watching some car/bike etc that you think might do X.

Quoted message said:

To look behind, you have to turn your head, look for a
minimum of 1/3 s, then turn forward again.

also rember you can't see as much as in a rear mirror ie you will
struggle to see right behind. which means watching X is much more
difficult.

Quoted message said:

To look in a mirror, you have to look at the mirror, if
you know exactly where this is it will take 1/3 s. Then
once looking at the mirror, you will need another 1/3 s to
process the information in the mirror.

TBH, I think that these times are comparable for the
average person.

i would personaly say that the rear mirror is very fast, while to look
behind certinaly if travelling at speed requires much more time, and
therefore needs to be timed right.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com