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The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle

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Mike Vandeman
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  1. The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 14, 2001

    "Documenting human impacts on genetic diversity in forest trees and
    other wildland plants is a difficult matter; little quantitative data
    exist. Most evidence is anecdotal, and only in the extreme case of
    extinction can we unequivocally demonstrate a reduction in diversity.
    … Research is particularly needed to document changes in allele
    frequency under various types of forest management; very few studies
    exist on the impact of harvest methods on genetic diversity." (Ledig,
    pp.87-8)

    "Comparison of pre- and post-harvest gene pools indicated a
    substantial loss of genetic diversity as a result of harvesting. … In
    postharvest stand A about one-half of the 30 lost alleles were rare …
    and one-half were low frequency alleles. … Eighty percent of all rare
    alleles were lost from the two gene pools, whereas about 40% of all
    low frequency alleles were lost. … 'Private' alleles, or those unique
    to either stand A or stand B, were especially vulnerable to
    harvest-induced elimination from the gene pools. … This suggests
    genetic diversity losses of 25% or more may be common when forests of
    this type are harvested at these intensities. … The loss of private
    alleles from both stands gives concern for the integrity of
    locally-adapted gene pools after harvesting." (Buchert et al,
    pp.751-4)

    "Sustainability" is the Holy Grail of the twenty-first century.
    Everyone and his brother claim to have found it, or at least to be
    able to describe what it would look like. We are told that sustainable
    recreation, agriculture, fishing, hunting, and even logging are within
    reach. But, like all such "campaign promises", they aren't fulfilled,
    and, in fact, cannot be fulfilled!

    In order to understand this, we first have to put the subject on
    a solid foundation. "Sustainable" means "indefinitely repeatable,
    without harm". Take "sustainable logging", for example. The
    implication is that a proper method and rate of logging can be
    continued forever, without diminishing the forest's resources -- in
    other words, without harming it. It is implied (and usually not
    explicitly stated) that the quantity of trees would be the same, with
    or without logging. But if the logged species of tree would, absent
    logging, naturally increase its population, holding it at a fixed
    population would constitute a "harm" (at least from the point of view
    of that species).

    But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are very
    good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient. So let's take
    a more concrete value: biodiversity, as exemplified by genetic
    diversity. I think that biodiversity is a generally accepted value,
    maybe even our highest value. Biodiversity supplies almost everything
    that we like: satisfying, attractive foods, clean air, clean water,
    effective medicines, beautiful places to live and recreate, etc.

    Biodiversity is also finite. Although new (unique) genes are
    continually being created, the rate of creation of new genes (that
    survive) is far lower than the rate at which we are able to destroy
    them. Thus, the number of different genes (or alleles) on the Earth is
    a large, but finite, number. (By the way, the creation of new genes
    does not "compensate" for the loss of other genes, except in a simple
    mathematical sense; this is like comparing apples and oranges. The
    creation of a new variety of apple doesn't "compensate" for the loss
    of a variety of orange. We like the species that we have, and are not
    consoled, upon their loss, by the creation of new ones.)

    How does biodiversity get created? By mutation. Where does it get
    created? In individuals. The very first time that a new gene (or
    allele) is created, it most likely exists in a single individual. The
    probability that the same genetic "accident" would happen
    simultaneously in more than one individual is even lower than the
    already low probability of its occurrence in the first individual.
    Suppose, for example, that one of our to-be-logged trees contains a
    mutation that would allow the species to survive global warming. Then
    by killing even one tree, we could destroy biodiversity (a gene or
    allele that exists nowhere else in the world), and have a significant
    negative effect on the species!

    Thus, logging (and any other killing of reproducing organisms)
    can never be "sustainable": one can never guarantee that it won't
    destroy a piece of that finite set, the world's store of genetic
    biodiversity. Repeated often enough, it could, and probably would,
    reduce the genetic diversity of the logged species, or even drive it
    to extinction. If you continually destroy members of a finite set,
    however large, it will eventually be empty. The probability of
    destroying a unique gene may be low, but the consequences can be very
    serious, so the killing of reproducing organisms must not be taken
    lightly.

    To bring this closer to home, look at the set of all humans,
    alive or dead. (Assume that we have a concrete way of determining,
    e.g. genetically, whether a given organism is a human being -- call it
    gene H. Personally, I think that this distinguishing factor probably
    involves a leap in memory capacity.) This is a finite set. Therefore,
    it has a first member. There was a first organism having the H gene.
    What if that first human were killed? Then it would be extremely
    unlikely that humans would have evolved, at least in the relatively
    short 6 (?) million years that we have been here.

    Every biology textbook identifies "overharvesting" as one of the
    major causes of the loss of biodiversity. However, as far as I know,
    none of them define "over", and none of them discuss the loss of
    biodiversity caused by harvesting that is not "overharvesting". If
    they did, they would have to include the practice of "collecting"
    (killing) organisms for scientific study. To the contrary, as recently
    as 1979 (Wilkins and Peterson, p. 178), we find statements like
    “Populations of wild animals can have the annual surplus cropped
    without harm”. Insect field guides, e.g. Powell and Hogue (1979),
    recommend collecting insects as “an exciting and satisfying hobby for
    anyone” (p. 359). An entomologist at the University of Phoenix told me
    that collecting insects causes students to become excited about
    studying biology. Okay, but I wonder how many of them end up
    benefiting the species that they killed, and how many of them, on the
    contrary, end up supporting practices (e.g. pest control) that harm
    it? Is there really a net benefit to the organisms whose lives are
    sacrificed to research? I doubt it.

    Promoting the collecting of living organisms, besides teaching
    biology, also teaches people (nonverbally -- the most powerful way of
    teaching) that the killing of other species is to be taken lightly,
    and that human concerns take precedence over the lives and wishes of
    those species. That learning goes on even if the teacher verbally
    expresses regret over the need to kill. (If a smoking parent tells his
    children not to use drugs, what do the children actually learn?) Who
    knows what other consequences it may have?

    My intention, however, is not to single out any one form of
    killing, but to explain why there can be no such thing as a
    sustainable lifestyle: we all kill to eat, and therefore we risk doing
    significant harm. At a minimum, the killing of living organisms,
    especially reproducing organisms, should never be taken lightly.
    Furthermore, the notion of a "sustainable yield" is a myth. It assumes
    that the preservation of species is all that is important, and ignores
    loss of diversity below the species level.

    And there are other reasons why sustainability is unattainable:
    for example, all organisms produce wastes that are incompatible with
    their own existence. Trees produce oxygen. That seems like a good
    thing, but oxygen is poisonous to many organisms. And if there weren't
    mechanisms to remove excess oxygen from the atmosphere, all of our
    forests would spontaneously combust ("An increase in oxygen of only 4
    percent could ignite the entire atmosphere", James Lovelock in
    Newbold, p.9). I also wonder what would happen to species of trees
    whose fallen leaves (and dead ancestors) were not broken down by
    animals and fungi. So even a tree can't sustain itself without the
    help of other organisms.

    I think that the best we can say about sustainability is that it
    is a worthy goal, approachable, but not actually attainable.

    References:

    Aczel, Amir D., The Mystery of the Aleph -- Mathematics, the Kabbalah,
    and the Search for Infinity. New York: Four Walls Eight Windows, 2000.

    Buchert, George P., Om P. Rajora, James V. Hood, and Bruce P. Dancik,
    "Effects of Harvesting on Genetic Diversity in Old-Growth Eastern
    White Pine in Ontario, Canada". Conservation Biology, Vol. 11, No. 3,
    June 1997, pp.747-758.

    Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and
    Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random House,
    1981.

    Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
    Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.

    Ledig, F. Thomas, "Human Impacts on Genetic Diversity in Forest
    Ecosystems". Oikos, Vol. 63, 1992, pp.87-108.

    Liddle, Michael, Recreation Ecology. Chapman & Hall: London, c.1997.

    Myers, Norman, ed., Gaia: An Atlas of Planet Management, Garden City,
    NY: Anchor Books, 1984.

    Newbold, Heather, ed., Life Stories: World-Renowned Scientists Reflect
    on their Lives and the Future of Life on Earth. Berkeley: University
    of California Press, 2000.

    Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy:
    Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo,
    California, 1994.

    Powell, Jerry A. and Charles L. Hogue, California Insects. Berkeley:
    University of California Press, c. 1979.

    Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal Rights
    for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William Kaufmann, Inc.,
    1973.

    Vandeman, Michael J., http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande, especially
    “Wildlife and the Ecocity”, “Rethinking the Impacts of Recreation”,
    and "Wildlife Need Habitat Off-Limits to Humans".

    Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and the
    Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.

    Wilkins, Bruce J. and Steven R. Peterson, “Nongame Wildlife”, in
    Wildlife Conservation: Principles and Practices, Richard D. Teague and
    Eugene Decker, eds. Washington, D. C.: The Wildlife Society, c. 1979.

    Wilson, Edward O., The Diversity of Life. Cambridge, Massachusetts:
    Harvard University Press, 1992.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. Sorry not to have read this overly-long post but it seemed "preachy"
    and all that detail is as if it was for someone who had never until
    then thought of the subject before. It would be good to climb down
    from the Ivory Tower and get to the point. What is it that you REALLY
    bring to this subject that is new?

    By the way, have you REALLY found something that O.E. Wilson wrote
    that is worth referencing? I did not look to see if it was about
    "memes" or "altrutistic/biological natural selection."

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

    Mike Vandeman said:

    The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 14, 2001

    "Documenting human impacts on genetic diversity in forest trees and
    other wildland plants is a difficult matter; little quantitative data
    exist. Most evidence is anecdotal, and only in the extreme case of
    extinction can we unequivocally demonstrate a reduction in diversity.
    ... Research is particularly needed to document changes in allele
    frequency under various types of forest management; very few studies
    exist on the impact of harvest methods on genetic diversity." (Ledig,
    pp.87-8)

    "Comparison of pre- and post-harvest gene pools indicated a
    substantial loss of genetic diversity as a result of harvesting. ... In
    postharvest stand A about one-half of the 30 lost alleles were rare ...
    and one-half were low frequency alleles. ... Eighty percent of all rare
    alleles were lost from the two gene pools, whereas about 40% of all
    low frequency alleles were lost. ... 'Private' alleles, or those unique
    to either stand A or stand B, were especially vulnerable to
    harvest-induced elimination from the gene pools. ... This suggests
    genetic diversity losses of 25% or more may be common when forests of
    this type are harvested at these intensities. ... The loss of private
    alleles from both stands gives concern for the integrity of
    locally-adapted gene pools after harvesting." (Buchert et al,
    pp.751-4)

    "Sustainability" is the Holy Grail of the twenty-first century.
    Everyone and his brother claim to have found it, or at least to be
    able to describe what it would look like. We are told that sustainable
    recreation, agriculture, fishing, hunting, and even logging are within
    reach. But, like all such "campaign promises", they aren't fulfilled,
    and, in fact, cannot be fulfilled!

    In order to understand this, we first have to put the subject on
    a solid foundation. "Sustainable" means "indefinitely repeatable,
    without harm". Take "sustainable logging", for example. The
    implication is that a proper method and rate of logging can be
    continued forever, without diminishing the forest's resources -- in
    other words, without harming it. It is implied (and usually not
    explicitly stated) that the quantity of trees would be the same, with
    or without logging. But if the logged species of tree would, absent
    logging, naturally increase its population, holding it at a fixed
    population would constitute a "harm" (at least from the point of view
    of that species).

    But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are very
    good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient. So let's take
    a more concrete value: biodiversity, as exemplified by genetic
    diversity. I think that biodiversity is a generally accepted value,
    maybe even our highest value. Biodiversity supplies almost everything
    that we like: satisfying, attractive foods, clean air, clean water,
    effective medicines, beautiful places to live and recreate, etc.

    Biodiversity is also finite. Although new (unique) genes are
    continually being created, the rate of creation of new genes (that
    survive) is far lower than the rate at which we are able to destroy
    them. Thus, the number of different genes (or alleles) on the Earth is
    a large, but finite, number. (By the way, the creation of new genes
    does not "compensate" for the loss of other genes, except in a simple
    mathematical sense; this is like comparing apples and oranges. The
    creation of a new variety of apple doesn't "compensate" for the loss
    of a variety of orange. We like the species that we have, and are not
    consoled, upon their loss, by the creation of new ones.)

    How does biodiversity get created? By mutation. Where does it get
    created? In individuals. The very first time that a new gene (or
    allele) is created, it most likely exists in a single individual. The
    probability that the same genetic "accident" would happen
    simultaneously in more than one individual is even lower than the
    already low probability of its occurrence in the first individual.
    Suppose, for example, that one of our to-be-logged trees contains a
    mutation that would allow the species to survive global warming. Then
    by killing even one tree, we could destroy biodiversity (a gene or
    allele that exists nowhere else in the world), and have a significant
    negative effect on the species!

    Thus, logging (and any other killing of reproducing organisms)
    can never be "sustainable": one can never guarantee that it won't
    destroy a piece of that finite set, the world's store of genetic
    biodiversity. Repeated often enough, it could, and probably would,
    reduce the genetic diversity of the logged species, or even drive it
    to extinction. If you continually destroy members of a finite set,
    however large, it will eventually be empty. The probability of
    destroying a unique gene may be low, but the consequences can be very
    serious, so the killing of reproducing organisms must not be taken
    lightly.

    To bring this closer to home, look at the set of all humans,
    alive or dead. (Assume that we have a concrete way of determining,
    e.g. genetically, whether a given organism is a human being -- call it
    gene H. Personally, I think that this distinguishing factor probably
    involves a leap in memory capacity.) This is a finite set. Therefore,
    it has a first member. There was a first organism having the H gene.
    What if that first human were killed? Then it would be extremely
    unlikely that humans would have evolved, at least in the relatively
    short 6 (?) million years that we have been here.

    Every biology textbook identifies "overharvesting" as one of the
    major causes of the loss of biodiversity. However, as far as I know,
    none of them define "over", and none of them discuss the loss of
    biodiversity caused by harvesting that is not "overharvesting". If
    they did, they would have to include the practice of "collecting"
    (killing) organisms for scientific study. To the contrary, as recently
    as 1979 (Wilkins and Peterson, p. 178), we find statements like
    "Populations of wild animals can have the annual surplus cropped
    without harm". Insect field guides, e.g. Powell and Hogue (1979),
    recommend collecting insects as "an exciting and satisfying hobby for
    anyone" (p. 359). An entomologist at the University of Phoenix told me
    that collecting insects causes students to become excited about
    studying biology. Okay, but I wonder how many of them end up
    benefiting the species that they killed, and how many of them, on the
    contrary, end up supporting practices (e.g. pest control) that harm
    it? Is there really a net benefit to the organisms whose lives are
    sacrificed to research? I doubt it.

    Promoting the collecting of living organisms, besides teaching
    biology, also teaches people (nonverbally -- the most powerful way of
    teaching) that the killing of other species is to be taken lightly,
    and that human concerns take precedence over the lives and wishes of
    those species. That learning goes on even if the teacher verbally
    expresses regret over the need to kill. (If a smoking parent tells his
    children not to use drugs, what do the children actually learn?) Who
    knows what other consequences it may have?

    My intention, however, is not to single out any one form of
    killing, but to explain why there can be no such thing as a
    sustainable lifestyle: we all kill to eat, and therefore we risk doing
    significant harm. At a minimum, the killing of living organisms,
    especially reproducing organisms, should never be taken lightly.
    Furthermore, the notion of a "sustainable yield" is a myth. It assumes
    that the preservation of species is all that is important, and ignores
    loss of diversity below the species level.

    And there are other reasons why sustainability is unattainable:
    for example, all organisms produce wastes that are incompatible with
    their own existence. Trees produce oxygen. That seems like a good
    thing, but oxygen is poisonous to many organisms. And if there weren't
    mechanisms to remove excess oxygen from the atmosphere, all of our
    forests would spontaneously combust ("An increase in oxygen of only 4
    percent could ignite the entire atmosphere", James Lovelock in
    Newbold, p.9). I also wonder what would happen to species of trees
    whose fallen leaves (and dead ancestors) were not broken down by
    animals and fungi. So even a tree can't sustain itself without the
    help of other organisms.

    I think that the best we can say about sustainability is that it
    is a worthy goal, approachable, but not actually attainable.

    References:

    Aczel, Amir D., The Mystery of the Aleph -- Mathematics, the Kabbalah,
    and the Search for Infinity. New York: Four Walls Eight Windows, 2000.

    Buchert, George P., Om P. Rajora, James V. Hood, and Bruce P. Dancik,
    "Effects of Harvesting on Genetic Diversity in Old-Growth Eastern
    White Pine in Ontario, Canada". Conservation Biology, Vol. 11, No. 3,
    June 1997, pp.747-758.

    Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and
    Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random House,
    1981.

    Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
    Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.

    Ledig, F. Thomas, "Human Impacts on Genetic Diversity in Forest
    Ecosystems". Oikos, Vol. 63, 1992, pp.87-108.

    Liddle, Michael, Recreation Ecology. Chapman & Hall: London, c.1997.

    Myers, Norman, ed., Gaia: An Atlas of Planet Management, Garden City,
    NY: Anchor Books, 1984.

    Newbold, Heather, ed., Life Stories: World-Renowned Scientists Reflect
    on their Lives and the Future of Life on Earth. Berkeley: University
    of California Press, 2000.

    Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy:
    Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo,
    California, 1994.

    Powell, Jerry A. and Charles L. Hogue, California Insects. Berkeley:
    University of California Press, c. 1979.

    Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal Rights
    for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William Kaufmann, Inc.,
    1973.

    Vandeman, Michael J.,http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande, especially
    "Wildlife and the Ecocity", "Rethinking the Impacts of Recreation",
    and "Wildlife Need Habitat Off-Limits to Humans".

    Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and the
    Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.

    Wilkins, Bruce J. and Steven R. Peterson, "Nongame Wildlife", in
    Wildlife Conservation: Principles and Practices, Richard D. Teague and
    Eugene Decker, eds. Washington, D. C.: The Wildlife Society, c. 1979.

    Wilson, Edward O., The Diversity of Life. Cambridge, Massachusetts:
    Harvard University Press, 1992.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  3. On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:56:28 -0700, charles <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry not to have read this overly-long post but it seemed "preachy"
    and all that detail is as if it was for someone who had never until
    then thought of the subject before. It would be good to climb down
    from the Ivory Tower and get to the point. What is it that you REALLY
    bring to this subject that is new?

    All of it. Since you admit not being capable of following it, there's
    no hope for you.

    Quoted message said:

    By the way, have you REALLY found something that O.E. Wilson wrote
    that is worth referencing?

    Thanks for admitting that you can't understand him either.

    Do your homework first. Don't expect me to digest it for you.

    I did not look to see if it was about

    Quoted message said:

    "memes" or "altrutistic/biological natural selection."

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

    Mike Vandeman said:

    The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 14, 2001

    "Documenting human impacts on genetic diversity in forest trees and
    other wildland plants is a difficult matter; little quantitative data
    exist. Most evidence is anecdotal, and only in the extreme case of
    extinction can we unequivocally demonstrate a reduction in diversity.
    ... Research is particularly needed to document changes in allele
    frequency under various types of forest management; very few studies
    exist on the impact of harvest methods on genetic diversity." (Ledig,
    pp.87-8)

    "Comparison of pre- and post-harvest gene pools indicated a
    substantial loss of genetic diversity as a result of harvesting. ... In
    postharvest stand A about one-half of the 30 lost alleles were rare ...
    and one-half were low frequency alleles. ... Eighty percent of all rare
    alleles were lost from the two gene pools, whereas about 40% of all
    low frequency alleles were lost. ... 'Private' alleles, or those unique
    to either stand A or stand B, were especially vulnerable to
    harvest-induced elimination from the gene pools. ... This suggests
    genetic diversity losses of 25% or more may be common when forests of
    this type are harvested at these intensities. ... The loss of private
    alleles from both stands gives concern for the integrity of
    locally-adapted gene pools after harvesting." (Buchert et al,
    pp.751-4)

    "Sustainability" is the Holy Grail of the twenty-first century.
    Everyone and his brother claim to have found it, or at least to be
    able to describe what it would look like. We are told that sustainable
    recreation, agriculture, fishing, hunting, and even logging are within
    reach. But, like all such "campaign promises", they aren't fulfilled,
    and, in fact, cannot be fulfilled!

    In order to understand this, we first have to put the subject on
    a solid foundation. "Sustainable" means "indefinitely repeatable,
    without harm". Take "sustainable logging", for example. The
    implication is that a proper method and rate of logging can be
    continued forever, without diminishing the forest's resources -- in
    other words, without harming it. It is implied (and usually not
    explicitly stated) that the quantity of trees would be the same, with
    or without logging. But if the logged species of tree would, absent
    logging, naturally increase its population, holding it at a fixed
    population would constitute a "harm" (at least from the point of view
    of that species).

    But population size is a rather subjective value. Humans are very
    good at rationalizing any level they see as convenient. So let's take
    a more concrete value: biodiversity, as exemplified by genetic
    diversity. I think that biodiversity is a generally accepted value,
    maybe even our highest value. Biodiversity supplies almost everything
    that we like: satisfying, attractive foods, clean air, clean water,
    effective medicines, beautiful places to live and recreate, etc.

    Biodiversity is also finite. Although new (unique) genes are
    continually being created, the rate of creation of new genes (that
    survive) is far lower than the rate at which we are able to destroy
    them. Thus, the number of different genes (or alleles) on the Earth is
    a large, but finite, number. (By the way, the creation of new genes
    does not "compensate" for the loss of other genes, except in a simple
    mathematical sense; this is like comparing apples and oranges. The
    creation of a new variety of apple doesn't "compensate" for the loss
    of a variety of orange. We like the species that we have, and are not
    consoled, upon their loss, by the creation of new ones.)

    How does biodiversity get created? By mutation. Where does it get
    created? In individuals. The very first time that a new gene (or
    allele) is created, it most likely exists in a single individual. The
    probability that the same genetic "accident" would happen
    simultaneously in more than one individual is even lower than the
    already low probability of its occurrence in the first individual.
    Suppose, for example, that one of our to-be-logged trees contains a
    mutation that would allow the species to survive global warming. Then
    by killing even one tree, we could destroy biodiversity (a gene or
    allele that exists nowhere else in the world), and have a significant
    negative effect on the species!

    Thus, logging (and any other killing of reproducing organisms)
    can never be "sustainable": one can never guarantee that it won't
    destroy a piece of that finite set, the world's store of genetic
    biodiversity. Repeated often enough, it could, and probably would,
    reduce the genetic diversity of the logged species, or even drive it
    to extinction. If you continually destroy members of a finite set,
    however large, it will eventually be empty. The probability of
    destroying a unique gene may be low, but the consequences can be very
    serious, so the killing of reproducing organisms must not be taken
    lightly.

    To bring this closer to home, look at the set of all humans,
    alive or dead. (Assume that we have a concrete way of determining,
    e.g. genetically, whether a given organism is a human being -- call it
    gene H. Personally, I think that this distinguishing factor probably
    involves a leap in memory capacity.) This is a finite set. Therefore,
    it has a first member. There was a first organism having the H gene.
    What if that first human were killed? Then it would be extremely
    unlikely that humans would have evolved, at least in the relatively
    short 6 (?) million years that we have been here.

    Every biology textbook identifies "overharvesting" as one of the
    major causes of the loss of biodiversity. However, as far as I know,
    none of them define "over", and none of them discuss the loss of
    biodiversity caused by harvesting that is not "overharvesting". If
    they did, they would have to include the practice of "collecting"
    (killing) organisms for scientific study. To the contrary, as recently
    as 1979 (Wilkins and Peterson, p. 178), we find statements like
    "Populations of wild animals can have the annual surplus cropped
    without harm". Insect field guides, e.g. Powell and Hogue (1979),
    recommend collecting insects as "an exciting and satisfying hobby for
    anyone" (p. 359). An entomologist at the University of Phoenix told me
    that collecting insects causes students to become excited about
    studying biology. Okay, but I wonder how many of them end up
    benefiting the species that they killed, and how many of them, on the
    contrary, end up supporting practices (e.g. pest control) that harm
    it? Is there really a net benefit to the organisms whose lives are
    sacrificed to research? I doubt it.

    Promoting the collecting of living organisms, besides teaching
    biology, also teaches people (nonverbally -- the most powerful way of
    teaching) that the killing of other species is to be taken lightly,
    and that human concerns take precedence over the lives and wishes of
    those species. That learning goes on even if the teacher verbally
    expresses regret over the need to kill. (If a smoking parent tells his
    children not to use drugs, what do the children actually learn?) Who
    knows what other consequences it may have?

    My intention, however, is not to single out any one form of
    killing, but to explain why there can be no such thing as a
    sustainable lifestyle: we all kill to eat, and therefore we risk doing
    significant harm. At a minimum, the killing of living organisms,
    especially reproducing organisms, should never be taken lightly.
    Furthermore, the notion of a "sustainable yield" is a myth. It assumes
    that the preservation of species is all that is important, and ignores
    loss of diversity below the species level.

    And there are other reasons why sustainability is unattainable:
    for example, all organisms produce wastes that are incompatible with
    their own existence. Trees produce oxygen. That seems like a good
    thing, but oxygen is poisonous to many organisms. And if there weren't
    mechanisms to remove excess oxygen from the atmosphere, all of our
    forests would spontaneously combust ("An increase in oxygen of only 4
    percent could ignite the entire atmosphere", James Lovelock in
    Newbold, p.9). I also wonder what would happen to species of trees
    whose fallen leaves (and dead ancestors) were not broken down by
    animals and fungi. So even a tree can't sustain itself without the
    help of other organisms.

    I think that the best we can say about sustainability is that it
    is a worthy goal, approachable, but not actually attainable.

    References:

    Aczel, Amir D., The Mystery of the Aleph -- Mathematics, the Kabbalah,
    and the Search for Infinity. New York: Four Walls Eight Windows, 2000.

    Buchert, George P., Om P. Rajora, James V. Hood, and Bruce P. Dancik,
    "Effects of Harvesting on Genetic Diversity in Old-Growth Eastern
    White Pine in Ontario, Canada". Conservation Biology, Vol. 11, No. 3,
    June 1997, pp.747-758.

    Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and
    Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random House,
    1981.

    Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
    Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.

    Ledig, F. Thomas, "Human Impacts on Genetic Diversity in Forest
    Ecosystems". Oikos, Vol. 63, 1992, pp.87-108.

    Liddle, Michael, Recreation Ecology. Chapman & Hall: London, c.1997.

    Myers, Norman, ed., Gaia: An Atlas of Planet Management, Garden City,
    NY: Anchor Books, 1984.

    Newbold, Heather, ed., Life Stories: World-Renowned Scientists Reflect
    on their Lives and the Future of Life on Earth. Berkeley: University
    of California Press, 2000.

    Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy:
    Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo,
    California, 1994.

    Powell, Jerry A. and Charles L. Hogue, California Insects. Berkeley:
    University of California Press, c. 1979.

    Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal Rights
    for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William Kaufmann, Inc.,
    1973.

    Vandeman, Michael J.,http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande, especially
    "Wildlife and the Ecocity", "Rethinking the Impacts of Recreation",
    and "Wildlife Need Habitat Off-Limits to Humans".

    Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and the
    Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.

    Wilkins, Bruce J. and Steven R. Peterson, "Nongame Wildlife", in
    Wildlife Conservation: Principles and Practices, Richard D. Teague and
    Eugene Decker, eds. Washington, D. C.: The Wildlife Society, c. 1979.

    Wilson, Edward O., The Diversity of Life. Cambridge, Massachusetts:
    Harvard University Press, 1992.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande



    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  4. On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:23:33 GMT, Mike Vandeman
    <[email hidden]> said in
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sorry not to have read this overly-long post but it seemed "preachy"
    and all that detail is as if it was for someone who had never until
    then thought of the subject before. It would be good to climb down
    from the Ivory Tower and get to the point. What is it that you REALLY
    bring to this subject that is new?

    All of it. Since you admit not being capable of following it, there's
    no hope for you.

    Oh, look! Vandeman LIES. Nowhere did Charles admit to being unable
    to follow it. Of course, in your warped and twisted mind, being
    unable to follow something simply means failing to uncritically
    accept your lunacy, so I suppose in your own internal world you
    think you didn't LIE, but to the rest of us it's a LIE and you're a
    LIAR.

    Did I get the capitalisation right, [censored]?

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  5. you know? said:

    On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:23:33 GMT, Mike Vandeman
    <[email hidden]> said in
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sorry not to have read this overly-long post but it seemed "preachy"
    and all that detail is as if it was for someone who had never until
    then thought of the subject before. It would be good to climb down
    from the Ivory Tower and get to the point. What is it that you REALLY
    bring to this subject that is new?

    All of it. Since you admit not being capable of following it, there's
    no hope for you.

    Oh, look! Vandeman LIES. Nowhere did Charles admit to being unable
    to follow it. Of course, in your warped and twisted mind, being
    unable to follow something simply means failing to uncritically
    accept your lunacy, so I suppose in your own internal world you
    think you didn't LIE, but to the rest of us it's a LIE and you're a
    LIAR.

    Did I get the capitalisation right, [censored]?

    Guy

    Yawn.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  6. On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:16:37 -0700, Mike Vandeman
    <[email hidden]> said in
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Yawn.

    Capitulation duly noted. Next case.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  7. you know? said:

    On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:16:37 -0700, Mike Vandeman
    <[email hidden]> said in
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Yawn.

    Capitulation duly noted. Next case.

    Double-yawn.

    Quoted message said:

    Guy


    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  8. Mike Vandeman said:

    The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 14, 2001
    consoled, upon their loss, by the creation of new ones.)

    Thus, logging (and any other killing of reproducing organisms)
    can never be "sustainable": one can never guarantee that it won't
    destroy a piece of that finite set, the world's store of genetic
    biodiversity. Repeated often enough, it could, and probably would,
    reduce the genetic diversity of the logged species, or even drive it
    to extinction. If you continually destroy members of a finite set,
    however large, it will eventually be empty. The probability of
    destroying a unique gene may be low, but the consequences can be very
    serious, so the killing of reproducing organisms must not be taken
    lightly.

    Argumentum Ad Absurdum. If you define sustainability as "no harm",
    then redefine harm to ridiculous unobtainable levels, then of course
    sustainability isn't possible.

    This argument would only be relevant if trees had NO natural enemies.
    Since they do, then logging simply becomes one more natural enemy.
    All species have defenses against natural enemies encoded within their
    DNA, and external pressures that reduce diversity will simply increase
    the pressure for the species to produce MORE diversity.

    The very concept of a "unique gene" is laughable, on many levels.

  9. Darryl said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 14, 2001
    consoled, upon their loss, by the creation of new ones.)

    Quoted message said:

    Thus, logging (and any other killing of reproducing organisms)
    can never be "sustainable": one can never guarantee that it won't
    destroy a piece of that finite set, the world's store of genetic
    biodiversity. Repeated often enough, it could, and probably would,
    reduce the genetic diversity of the logged species, or even drive it
    to extinction. If you continually destroy members of a finite set,
    however large, it will eventually be empty. The probability of
    destroying a unique gene may be low, but the consequences can be very
    serious, so the killing of reproducing organisms must not be taken
    lightly.

    Argumentum Ad Absurdum. If you define sustainability as "no harm",
    then redefine harm to ridiculous unobtainable levels, then of course
    sustainability isn't possible.

    This argument would only be relevant if trees had NO natural enemies.
    Since they do, then logging simply becomes one more natural enemy.
    All species have defenses against natural enemies encoded within their
    DNA, and external pressures that reduce diversity will simply increase
    the pressure for the species to produce MORE diversity.

    The very concept of a "unique gene" is laughable, on many levels.

    Darryl - As in the rantings of most madmen, a kernel of truth is
    distorted and inflated beyond all recognition and reason when Mike
    opens his mouth or puts fingers to keyboard. Mike gives the
    impression of sustaining a serious emotional problem, and on top of
    that he is among those who are incapable of understanding that they
    could *ever* be wrong once they have convinced themselves of their own
    superior understanding. We have quite a few of those in government
    these days, if you'd like to search out other examples.

    It is best to just ignore him. It is best all the way around, not the
    least of which for Mike himself who, if continually prodded, will
    continue to speak to his own detriment and further engage in character
    self-assassination. Consider your silence an act of charitable pity.

    On your own comments, while organisms do have DNA encoding against
    natural enemies, these codes are developed for stresses with which
    they have evolved over at least many tens of thousands, and probably
    more, years. Logging on a massive scale has not evolved on that
    timeframe alongside the trees - its timeframe has been a temporal drop-
    in-the-bucket. To assume that any group of long-lived organisms can
    genetically/evolutionarily respond to a threat of this magnitude, and
    develop some kind of genetic defense against it (titanium-clad bark?)
    is probably a poor assumption. Without protection, it is conceivable
    that such trees as redwoods, sequioas and many others could vanish
    long before their genes were even able to evolve through a single
    additional generation, let alone mutate randomly to provide any sort
    of meaningful defense.

    Bruce Jensen

  10. Darryl said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 14, 2001
    consoled, upon their loss, by the creation of new ones.)

    Thus, logging (and any other killing of reproducing organisms)
    can never be "sustainable": one can never guarantee that it won't
    destroy a piece of that finite set, the world's store of genetic
    biodiversity. Repeated often enough, it could, and probably would,
    reduce the genetic diversity of the logged species, or even drive it
    to extinction. If you continually destroy members of a finite set,
    however large, it will eventually be empty. The probability of
    destroying a unique gene may be low, but the consequences can be very
    serious, so the killing of reproducing organisms must not be taken
    lightly.

    Argumentum Ad Absurdum. If you define sustainability as "no harm",
    then redefine harm to ridiculous unobtainable levels, then of course
    sustainability isn't possible.

    Loss of biodiversity is important, which is why it shouldn't be
    ignored or termed "ridiculous".

    Quoted message said:

    This argument would only be relevant if trees had NO natural enemies.
    Since they do, then logging simply becomes one more natural enemy.

    BS. There's absolutely NOTHING natural about logging. That's easy to
    see, because nature doesn't often CLEARCUT forests. DUH!

    Quoted message said:

    All species have defenses against natural enemies encoded within their
    DNA, and external pressures that reduce diversity will simply increase
    the pressure for the species to produce MORE diversity.

    BS. Genetic diversity is created by random mutations, not "pressure".

    Quoted message said:

    The very concept of a "unique gene" is laughable, on many levels.

    You obviously don't understand genetics. OBVIOUSLY, the first human
    had a unique gene, otherwise humans would never have evolved -- we
    would still be living in trees. DUH!
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  11. On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:26:00 -0700, Bruce Jensen <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Darryl said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    The Myth of the Sustainable Lifestyle
    Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
    July 14, 2001
    consoled, upon their loss, by the creation of new ones.)

    Quoted message said:

    Thus, logging (and any other killing of reproducing organisms)
    can never be "sustainable": one can never guarantee that it won't
    destroy a piece of that finite set, the world's store of genetic
    biodiversity. Repeated often enough, it could, and probably would,
    reduce the genetic diversity of the logged species, or even drive it
    to extinction. If you continually destroy members of a finite set,
    however large, it will eventually be empty. The probability of
    destroying a unique gene may be low, but the consequences can be very
    serious, so the killing of reproducing organisms must not be taken
    lightly.

    Argumentum Ad Absurdum. If you define sustainability as "no harm",
    then redefine harm to ridiculous unobtainable levels, then of course
    sustainability isn't possible.

    This argument would only be relevant if trees had NO natural enemies.
    Since they do, then logging simply becomes one more natural enemy.
    All species have defenses against natural enemies encoded within their
    DNA, and external pressures that reduce diversity will simply increase
    the pressure for the species to produce MORE diversity.

    The very concept of a "unique gene" is laughable, on many levels.

    Darryl - As in the rantings of most madmen, a kernel of truth is
    distorted and inflated beyond all recognition and reason when Mike
    opens his mouth or puts fingers to keyboard. Mike gives the
    impression of sustaining a serious emotional problem, and on top of
    that he is among those who are incapable of understanding that they
    could *ever* be wrong once they have convinced themselves of their own
    superior understanding. We have quite a few of those in government
    these days, if you'd like to search out other examples.

    It is best to just ignore him. It is best all the way around, not the
    least of which for Mike himself who, if continually prodded, will
    continue to speak to his own detriment and further engage in character
    self-assassination. Consider your silence an act of charitable pity.

    On your own comments, while organisms do have DNA encoding against
    natural enemies, these codes are developed for stresses with which
    they have evolved over at least many tens of thousands, and probably
    more, years. Logging on a massive scale has not evolved on that
    timeframe alongside the trees - its timeframe has been a temporal drop-
    in-the-bucket. To assume that any group of long-lived organisms can
    genetically/evolutionarily respond to a threat of this magnitude, and
    develop some kind of genetic defense against it (titanium-clad bark?)
    is probably a poor assumption. Without protection, it is conceivable
    that such trees as redwoods, sequioas and many others could vanish
    long before their genes were even able to evolve through a single
    additional generation, let alone mutate randomly to provide any sort
    of meaningful defense.

    Right. That's what I just said: human-induced damage happens too fast
    for any species except bacteria & viruses to evolve any defenses.

    Quoted message said:

    Bruce Jensen


    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

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