Weight loss suggestions?

em said:

"Robin King" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Then somebody should tell them. In the list of 900+ lb.
people, there are some who've been put on very low-calorie diets under
supervision, which ultimately had the effect of weakening them, so
that they couldn't fight off an infection and died of it. One died of
starvation at 600 pounds.

Hi Robin,

That's a good point and definitely worth consideration and discussion. I
don't want to throw any maybes out because I have no understanding or
point of reference to back me up. There's no maybe, though, about 900+
being life threatening, nor is there any question (in my mind) that the
wrong and/or too drastic of an approach can be deadly. Starving a 1/2 ton
person so that they'll lose weight makes about as much sense as punching a
hole in the gas tank of a jet plane, in mid flight, in order to improve
fuel efficience.

Can we start by agreeing that 900+ pounds is not where a person's body
finds their "natural weight"? If we can do that, then we can start to
talk, in a civilized and respectful maner, about what the problem is, what
approaches might work, what one's don't, what and where the dangers are,
etc. (Of course, trolls are not civilized and have no respect even for
themselves, so we ignore the troll posts, no?)

On another note, I took a long, hard look at the acceptance group a few
weeks back. There was so much trolling in that group that I was not able
to cut through through the noise and understand what the group was really
(supposed to be) about. I'd appreciate a link to the group's charter or
faq or some such thing.

http://tinyurl.com/2nx4s5

"Robin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Shava_X" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kelly said:

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007, "Robin King" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> I say, if you haven't got a method to help these people

lose

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>weight that gives them a better chance of improving their lives

than

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>of killing them, then leave them as is until you come up with one.

Someone please help this deluded person out. Robin is of the

opinion that

Quoted message said:

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losing weight is deadly.

The whole point is to improve the person's life. There is no

shortage of

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testimonials to the improvement in quality-of-life and health that

are to

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gained by loosing excess weight.

Of course there are testimonials. You don't hear many
denunciations because nobody profits from them. My question is, how
you you distinguish the effects of weight loss from the effects of

a) eating healthier food
b) regular exercise
c) experiencing more social acceptance at a lower weight?

Quoted message said:

It is not about finding a way to improve their lives. That has been
found.

Then somebody should tell them. In the list of 900+ lb.
people, there are some who've been put on very low-calorie diets under
supervision, which ultimately had the effect of weakening them, so
that they couldn't fight off an infection and died of it. One died of
starvation at 600 pounds.

That is ridiculous, no matter what the goal was. Somebody somewhere wasn't
doing their job!

Quoted message said:

The question is how to develop a program that can give the

Quoted message said:

individual person those results (the easy part), and is also a

program

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that the person can both live with, and live up to (that is the

difficult

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part).

The easy part is to blame the patient when the program doesn't
work.

That goes both ways though.. just this morning I had someone cry to me that
my program (WW) doesn't work, after questioning, she is NOT following the
plan.Then the Plan isn't the problem.. It's like complaining that your car
doesn't work, but you didn't put any fuel in it..

On the other hand, I don't believe in on solution for everybody.. there is a
way out there for everybody.. if there's a will, there's a way. WW offers 2
different plans, both of which have brought great results.. there's a lot of
different approaches out there.. it's a matter of decided how you will cut
down on calories consumed, and add on calories burned..

Quoted message said:

What I am wondering is why people are so fixated on the
extremes of fatness. Do people in diet groups likewise fixate on
skeletal people and their health problems?

Absolutely, being too skinny isn't any healthier than being overweight. We
do keep an eye on members at WW (believe me, there are more than one would
imagine) about both current weight (based on BMI, which admitedly is a
limited measurement) and rate of weight loss.

Quoted message said:

Robin

Will~

Willow Herself said:

That goes both ways though.. just this morning I had someone cry to me that
my program (WW) doesn't work, after questioning, she is NOT following the
plan.Then the Plan isn't the problem.. It's like complaining that your car
doesn't work, but you didn't put any fuel in it..

On the other hand, I don't believe in one solution for everybody.. there is a
way out there for everybody.. if there's a will, there's a way.

And ultimately it almost always is a question of will, isn't it?

Neil
385/242/225

--

"Willow Herself" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That would be true if you ate what nature intended you to eat, wild game,
fruits, vegetables, grains..

Not Mcburger, sodas, deep fried foods, hormones loaded meats and chips..

Will~

I so have to agree! Last night I went to a Carribbean style restaurant on
the beach which we knew had been given good reviews over the years. It has
a lively atmosphere, a good live band playing beach-style oldies (Jimmy
Buffet, etc.), an open dining room that sets on the Grand Lagoon Marina, so
you get the gulf breezes, and Carribbean dishes like jerk chicken, grilled
shrimp, Cuban sandwiches, and tropical drinks like mango daquiris. The last
time we were there was as the start of Spring Break. The food was clean
tasting, fresh, like you knew everything was made on site. Even the Cuban
bread was piping hot from the ovens.
In 6 months, this place has taken a total dive in quality, so much so, that
we've realised that only places we can actually eat out any more are the
Japanese steakhouses and sushi bars. Everywhere we go any more, the food
tastes fake, not clean. Even the salad was a bit off. Only thing we didn't
leave behind was the drinks and the beer. The waitress was a sweet nerd
girl who did her best to please, and even brought the manager down. This
young lady did get the nice tip she deserved, but the shift manager was
merely giving excuses about why things were the way they were. It was clear
she did not care.

If Al Quaida is considering poisoning the US food supply, they won't have
to. The food corporations and processors have already done it for them.

"The Historian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And ultimately it almost always is a question of will, isn't it?

Neil
385/242/225

It is, or rather it's a question of "want".

I'm not a big believer in "will power" as in just white-knuckling my way
through it. I'd rather work with "want power", that way I can plan ahead,
put together strategies, so that I don't have to rely on "will power" alone.
I want this enough to put in the efforts I need to put in. The great thing
is, I'm now enjoying the rewards of it.. makes it even easier to walk the
walk!

Will~
--

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built
the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic."
Dave Barry

"em" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robin King" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Then somebody should tell them. In the list of 900+ lb.
people, there are some who've been put on very low-calorie diets

under

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supervision, which ultimately had the effect of weakening them, so
that they couldn't fight off an infection and died of it. One

died of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

starvation at 600 pounds.

Hi Robin,

That's a good point and definitely worth consideration and

discussion. I

Quoted message said:

don't want to throw any maybes out because I have no understanding

or point

Quoted message said:

of reference to back me up. There's no maybe, though, about 900+

being life

Quoted message said:

threatening, nor is there any question (in my mind) that the wrong

and/or

Quoted message said:

too drastic of an approach can be deadly. Starving a 1/2 ton person

so that

Quoted message said:

they'll lose weight makes about as much sense as punching a hole in

the gas

Quoted message said:

tank of a jet plane, in mid flight, in order to improve fuel

efficience.

A sensible view. I think of it like sleeping - if someone is
sleeping 18 hours a day, it's clearly interfering with his/her life.
I doubt the solution to that would be to bombard the person with loud
music ten hours a day to cut them down to only eight hours. Putting
the 900+ lb people on ordinary diets is equivalent to doing just that.
It would be better to find out what is making them so large in the
first place.

Quoted message said:

Can we start by agreeing that 900+ pounds is not where a person's

body finds

Quoted message said:

their "natural weight"? If we can do that, then we can start to

talk, in a

Quoted message said:

civilized and respectful maner, about what the problem is, what

approaches

Quoted message said:

might work, what one's don't, what and where the dangers are, etc.

(Of

Quoted message said:

course, trolls are not civilized and have no respect even for

themselves, so

Quoted message said:

we ignore the troll posts, no?)

Fine with me. What newsgroup shall we do it in? I really
would prefer not to interfere with the dieters' support groups.

Quoted message said:

On another note, I took a long, hard look at the acceptance group a

few

Quoted message said:

weeks back. There was so much trolling in that group that I was not

able to

Quoted message said:

cut through through the noise and understand what the group was

really

Quoted message said:

(supposed to be) about. I'd appreciate a link to the group's charter

or faq

Quoted message said:

or some such thing.

Quoted message said:

Robin

Mike

The FAQ may be outdated, no one's touched it for years, AFAIK.
However, the charter states that this group is emphatically not for
pro-weight loss talk or encouragement, which can be easily had
elsewhere. It is about getting along in life as a fat person.

Robin

"em" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robin King" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Then somebody should tell them. In the list of 900+ lb.
people, there are some who've been put on very low-calorie diets

under

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supervision, which ultimately had the effect of weakening them, so
that they couldn't fight off an infection and died of it. One

died of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

starvation at 600 pounds.

Hi Robin,

That's a good point and definitely worth consideration and

discussion. I

Quoted message said:

don't want to throw any maybes out because I have no understanding

or point

Quoted message said:

of reference to back me up. There's no maybe, though, about 900+

being life

Quoted message said:

threatening, nor is there any question (in my mind) that the wrong

and/or

Quoted message said:

too drastic of an approach can be deadly. Starving a 1/2 ton person

so that

Quoted message said:

they'll lose weight makes about as much sense as punching a hole in

the gas

Quoted message said:

tank of a jet plane, in mid flight, in order to improve fuel

efficience.

A sensible view. I think of it like sleeping - if someone is
sleeping 18 hours a day, it's clearly interfering with his/her life.
I doubt the solution to that would be to bombard the person with loud
music ten hours a day to cut them down to only eight hours. Putting
the 900+ lb people on ordinary diets is equivalent to doing just that.
It would be better to find out what is making them so large in the
first place.

Quoted message said:

Can we start by agreeing that 900+ pounds is not where a person's

body finds

Quoted message said:

their "natural weight"? If we can do that, then we can start to

talk, in a

Quoted message said:

civilized and respectful maner, about what the problem is, what

approaches

Quoted message said:

might work, what one's don't, what and where the dangers are, etc.

(Of

Quoted message said:

course, trolls are not civilized and have no respect even for

themselves, so

Quoted message said:

we ignore the troll posts, no?)

Fine with me. What newsgroup shall we do it in? I really
would prefer not to interfere with the dieters' support groups.

Quoted message said:

On another note, I took a long, hard look at the acceptance group a

few

Quoted message said:

weeks back. There was so much trolling in that group that I was not

able to

Quoted message said:

cut through through the noise and understand what the group was

really

Quoted message said:

(supposed to be) about. I'd appreciate a link to the group's charter

or faq

Quoted message said:

or some such thing.

Quoted message said:

Robin

Mike

The FAQ may be outdated, no one's touched it for years, AFAIK.
However, the charter states that this group is emphatically not for
pro-weight loss talk or encouragement, which can be easily had
elsewhere. It is about getting along in life as a fat person.

Robin

Quoted message said:

The FAQ may be outdated, no one's touched it for years, AFAIK.
However, the charter states that this group is emphatically not for
pro-weight loss talk or encouragement, which can be easily had
elsewhere. It is about getting along in life as a fat person.

Robin

Perhaps I am not understanding you about what the charter states
alt.support.diet is for. The home page says its Description is
Seeking enlightenment through weight loss. That does seem kind of
general. I have found that the people here seem rather kind compared
to some other groups. You seem to have concerns that extra heavy
people are not welcome here. I think the goal of the support in
this group is weight loss. The person trying to lose weight can be
any size determined to lose any amount of weight. If you look at the
bottom of some messages you will see that some people have slimmed
down very much over a period of time.

"Robin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Putting
the 900+ lb people on ordinary diets is equivalent to doing just that.
It would be better to find out what is making them so large in the
first place.

What's making them so large is that they're not eating anything even
remotely resembling a normal diet (ie they are eating a whole lot more
calories than a typical person does). Now, the question of exactly why
they are eating so many calories is much more difficult and much more
interesting, but any beneficial effect from answering it would solely
consist of ways to make it easier for the person in question to follow an
ordinary diet.

Quoted message said:

What's making them so large is that they're not eating anything even
remotely resembling a normal diet (ie they are eating a whole lot more
calories than a typical person does).

You must know that there is no such thing as a typical diet, since
different people can consume widely varying caloric amounts without
becoming obese.

Quoted message said:

Now, the question of exactly why
they are eating so many calories is much more difficult and much more
interesting, but any beneficial effect from answering it would solely
consist of ways to make it easier for the person in question to follow an
ordinary diet.

Sometimes, people simply need to adjust their desires for food to what
their metabolisms and rate of physical activity can support. Someone
who exercises a lot or has a high metabolism can eat pretty much any
amount of anything they want, while people like me, with a slow
metabolism and sedentary lifestyle, must be vigilant.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sometimes, people simply need to adjust their desires for food to what
their metabolisms and rate of physical activity can support. Someone

More so for physical activity than for basal metabolism.

Quoted message said:

who exercises a lot or has a high metabolism can eat pretty much any
amount of anything they want,

People who exercise a lot certainly can, but people who exercise to that
extent are fairly rare relative to the size of the population.

Quoted message said:

while people like me, with a slow
metabolism and sedentary lifestyle, must be vigilant.

Most adults actually have basal metabolic rates (BMR) that are fairly
similar, when adjusted for lean body mass. There is some variation, of
course, but not nearly enough to explain the large variations seen in body
weight. In fact, the current thinking in the field is that you can probably
eliminate almost all of the variation between measured and calculated BMR if
you can determine the precise contribution of various types of tissue that
constitute lean body mass. That is, lean body mass is made up of some
tissues that have very high resting energy consumption (like kidney or
cardiac muscle) and some that have a fairly low consumption (like skeletal
muscle). If you can determine a person's exact body composition (including
adipose tissue, which does consume a bit of energy at rest), then you can
probably calculate their BMR very precisely.

With The Violets said:

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sometimes, people simply need to adjust their desires for food to what
their metabolisms and rate of physical activity can support. Someone

More so for physical activity than for basal metabolism.

Quoted message said:

who exercises a lot or has a high metabolism can eat pretty much any
amount of anything they want,

People who exercise a lot certainly can, but people who exercise to that
extent are fairly rare relative to the size of the population.

Quoted message said:

while people like me, with a slow
metabolism and sedentary lifestyle, must be vigilant.

Most adults actually have basal metabolic rates (BMR) that are fairly
similar, when adjusted for lean body mass. There is some variation, of
course, but not nearly enough to explain the large variations seen in body
weight. In fact, the current thinking in the field is that you can probably
eliminate almost all of the variation between measured and calculated BMR if
you can determine the precise contribution of various types of tissue that
constitute lean body mass. That is, lean body mass is made up of some
tissues that have very high resting energy consumption (like kidney or
cardiac muscle) and some that have a fairly low consumption (like skeletal
muscle). If you can determine a person's exact body composition (including
adipose tissue, which does consume a bit of energy at rest), then you can
probably calculate their BMR very precisely.

.. . .

I looked into the metabolism thing some time ago because of books that
claim that they can marvelously boost your metabolism.

Web searches, including medical sites, provided little factual
information. Tons of fantastic claims, however, from sites selling you
something.

What I managed to read stated that only about half of the components
controling metabolism are currently known -- the usual suspects of lean
body mass and total body mass.

The "thinking" in the field is not necessarily definitive knowledge. I
can understand the thinking that one "ought" to be able to calculate
basal metabolism.