Headset cheap fix - works

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a very old headset from someone else's bike that i'm interested in trying to restore
(rather than discard).

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

6. Sand/refinish the races and then rechrome the headset to make it look like new.

jim beam said:

it's not perfect, but istr seeing something on andy muzi's site about his refinishing bearing
races for customers with hard to replace components. imo, that is your "least bad" technical
solution. other than being content with keeping it "as-is" and viewing it as an interesting
museum piece.

only where both time and money have no importance! A lenthy setup and tedious work.

(jb)> for a high value/irreplacable component in a shop environment, it's also

Quoted message said:

possible to spray new material onto the bearing surface and then regrind, but to be hinest, i've
only ever seen this done on large pieces and i doubt the original races are big enough to survive
such a proceedure.

Yes for big engine crankshafts that's a common and reasonable $200 repair to a $1000 part. Headsets
are cheap!

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Pete Biggs said:

dianne_1234 said:

Quoted message said:

How many miles before the failure?

Quoted message said:

I'd estimate about 400 to 800 miles, but that's just a guess.

Oh, I thought you had previously been happy with them

Yes, on other bikes. Sorry, I guess didn't make that clear before. :-)

Quoted message said:

and said this then
"eventually" happened?

Yes, eventually in time (the tandem doesn't get used as often as my single bikes).

Quoted message said:

...Or have you left off some zeros!?

I'm trying to be honest about the mileage, but without an odometer I could be off by several
hundred or so.

Quoted message said:

(I'm wondering about total use before failure rather than inability to ride after problem began).

To my thinking, these are equivalent phrases for the same condition. Inability to ride (with
comfortable control) *is* failure.

Quoted message said:

I'm sorry I still haven't seen the picture,

Me, too. I was quite shocked to see the condition myself.

Quoted message said:

but surely something odd must have happened if this was after just ~600 miles? Was the adjustment
particularly tight or loose?

I knew of (and used) the drop test, rocking-with-the-brakes-on test, swinging the fork test, etc.
when I installed the headset. Subsequently I tried very fine adjustments several times as
symptoms began.

Quoted message said:

Anything else unusual at all (besides being on a tandem).

The steerer tube is 1", small for a tandem these days. It might flex more as a result, but it's
heavily reinforced through the length where the lower race mounts. (The frame builder added a
several inches length of thick-wall tube into the steerer there.)

The frame's head tube and fork's bearing seat were professionally reamed, faced and milled using
Campy cutters before the headset was installed.

Nothing else I can think of, except that this was the first failure in an A9 of many I'd used on
single bikes.

Quoted message said:

Thanks.

You're welcome!

Quoted message said:

~PB

dianne_1234 said:

Quoted message said:

(I'm wondering about total use before failure rather than inability to ride after problem began).

To my thinking, these are equivalent phrases for the same condition. Inability to ride (with
comfortable control) *is* failure.

I meant number of miles done in total versus number of miles after symtoms first showed up. I take
it you estimate it was less than 800 miles in total.

Quoted message said:

I knew of (and used) the drop test, rocking-with-the-brakes-on test, swinging the fork test, etc.
when I installed the headset.

Do you think it could have been initially tighter than the A9's used on your other bikes? Setting
just past the point of play is easy enough but it's not so easy to judge freeness by the swinging
test. Some other factors can influence how easily the forks/wheel swings: eg. cables, weight, exact
test method, etc.

Quoted message said:

Subsequently I tried very fine adjustments several times as symptoms began.

It may have been too late by then.

~PB

etiquette? that's easily fixed and is different from cowardice.

would have thought use of a threaded news reader made it obsolete.

Tim McNamara said:

jim beam said:

Tim McNamara said:

And again, have the guts to do correct attributions.

attribute what? forgive me being a [censored] but i don't understand what you want with this.

Atribute the text you're replying to the author. Your newsreader should do this automatically
(e.g., the attribution line above, which is "jim beam <[email hidden]> writes:"😉. You've made several
attacking posts which do not include the attributions- oddly enough, all of them being text from
posts by Jobst. Your last post, from which I took the above text, had a correct attribution to me.
If you're going to attack someone, at least be honest and up front about who it is.

jim beam said:

Tim McNamara said:

Atribute the text you're replying to the author. Your newsreader should do this automatically
(e.g., the attribution line above, which is "jim beam <[email hidden]> writes:"😉. You've made
several attacking posts which do not include the attributions- oddly enough, all of them being
text from posts by Jobst. Your last post, from which I took the above text, had a correct
attribution to me. If you're going to attack someone, at least be honest and up front about
who it is.

etiquette? that's easily fixed and is different from cowardice. would have thought use of a
threaded news reader made it obsolete.

Not at all; it's inconvenient to have to re-retrieve parent articles just to see to whom one is
replying, even if you ignore the problem of parents expiring. It's a bit like posts that ask a
question in the Subject: line, and don't repeat it in the message body.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Mausoleum: The final and funniest folly of the rich. -- Ambrose Bierce

Dianne_1234? said:

The steerer tube is 1", small for a tandem these days. It might flex more as a result, but it's
heavily reinforced through the length where the lower race mounts. (The frame builder added a
several inches length of thick-wall tube into the steerer there.)

Unless the insert was brazed into the steertube over its full length, it cannot add any strength to
it. The only way to do that reasonably is to start with a thick walled steel tube and to bore it out
at the upper end to accept a bar stem. Today you would need only to bore it out far enough to retain
the star washer to adjust the head bearing.

Quoted message said:

The frame's head tube and fork's bearing seat were professionally reamed, faced and milled using
Campy cutters before the headset was installed.

That makes no difference. As you see the roller complement slid off to one side as they always do
with this design and had most of its load on the high side. Besides that, the rollers, being short
and loosely held, skew in their track and drag excessively. I experienced all that and have a
bearing that looks much like the one in your picture.

Quoted message said:

Nothing else I can think of, except that this was the first failure in an A9 of many I'd used on
single bikes.

I think you'll find the others also have dimples and that this doesn't make much difference because
they skew to take up the clearance. It's a grossly misbegotten design.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

[email hidden] (Carl Fogel) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Gary Young:

Quoted message said:

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> timken.comprevent.aspOpen ↗.

[snip]

Dear Jim, Gary, and Jose,

When I peeked at the timken bearing page, it pandered to my desire for lurid pictures of failed
bearing surfaces, but it didn't pander quite far enough.

The pictures of the "false brinelling" aren't as good as Dianne's pictures (thanks again Dianne).

That is, there's no enlargement of the "false brinelling" damage on the Timken page.

But there is an enlargement of the true brinelling damage on that Timken page--and I don't
understand it.

I thought that true Brinelling would be a dent, possibly with raised lips, an impact crater.

But the enlargement seems to show nothing but a shadow or discoloration, with striations clearly
passing through it, as if undamaged. It's as if the so-called "plastic deformation" is just
burning, not deformation.

Can any of you (or any other kindly soul) explain what I'm missing in that picture? I hope this
isn't another damned optical illusion.

More perplexed than usual,

Carl Fogel

Carl, I'm afraid I'm not competent to answer your question. I'm a legal reporter with no expertise
in these matters (beyond what I've gleaned from this group). That makes it all the more remarkable,
I think, that I can see through the pathetic exploits of "Jim Beam." He wouldn't be so intolerable
if only he'd leave off snipping at the heels of people like Jobst who have made genuine
contributions to this group.

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... <snip>

Quoted message said:

you're getting at false brinelling, right? the condition for that is that the races are loose and
unloaded leading to sliding, not rolling.

Do you mind giving a source for that assertion? What I've read after a quick Google search suggests
that false brinelling can occur even when the bearings are loaded (as when installed in machinery),
as long as they're not so heavily loaded that they're locked into place.

Quoted message said:

unless the team mech hasn't tightened the forks properly, that's not what you get for a bunch
of bikes bouncing around on the roof of a car. how many times have you taken the groceries home
and found a can dented, an egg cracked or a bottle broken? you can't say these bikes are not
being loaded!

No, of course not. But entirely beside the point.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And again, have the guts to do correct attributions.

attribute what? forgive me being a [censored] but i don't understand what you want with this.

i don't understand why this is suddenly a schoolyard pissing match. jobst gets all bent over what
he thought was a snide remark. sorry he took it that way - there was no personal intent. but then
the abuse starts. i don't get it: why is his dysfunctionality my problem? and if you or jobst or
anyone else feel i'm mistaken, go ahead & point out what the issue is. i'm always a willing
learner if there's some expertise or experience to be shared. the only thing /i/ want is that it's
done technically, not by childish poo-flinging.

regarding brinelling, there's no rocket science here. any trained mechanic knows for instance, [or
from experience!] that when using a bearing press, they need to use the proper interfaces to load
the appropriate races only and not cause damage. think about it: a sphere has practically /zero/
contact area on a flat surface. virtually any applied force will cause nearly infinite load as the
contact area tends to zero. so there /will/ be deformation, no matter /how/ hard the material is.
a bunch of balls in a snugly curved race attempt to mitigate the problem, but the truth is, you
still get a minute amount of deformation. [electron microscopes are wonderful things.] now repeat
a bunch of times. see where this is going? if you do it all in the same spot, you get one
indentation, if you do it rolling, you get a constantly moving deformation zone which leads to
fatigue and spalling. simple, yes?

Then if you hammer away at a race with a punch, as Jobst has suggested, you should be able to
replicate this effect, right? Have you tried it?

Quoted message said:

noone's forcing you or anyone else to read this stuff. if it doesn't interest you, fine. if you
don't agree, fine. this is not religion, politics or health. we're here because we like bikes,
right? hopefully that means we have something in common.

jb

Here, class, we see the breakdown of the borderline personality when its ego props are kicked out
from under it. Where once he strode about proudly, chest puffed out, defying anyone to challenge
him, now he regresses to the fetal position. "Don't hurt me. Please don't hurt me," he cries.

Pete Biggs said:

Do you think it could have been initially tighter than the A9's used on your other bikes? Setting
just past the point of play is easy enough but it's not so easy to judge freeness by the swinging
test. Some other factors can influence how easily the forks/wheel swings: eg. cables, weight,
exact test method, etc.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subsequently I tried very fine adjustments several times as symptoms began.

Quoted message said:

It may have been too late by then.

Wait a minute! If tightness is assumed to be the cause, why would adjusting clearance "too late"
cause the bearing to wear more? This isn't making sense. The problem is not with adjustment but
rather the basic design. Fretting does not rely on clearance, or for that matter, load, as my
dimpled upper Campagnolo Record bearings show. I think the light weight (flexible) steer tube had
the largest effect.

My bicycle is a prime subject with its long steer tube and it produces plenty of failures until I
got one of the new Shimano head sets.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Tim McNamara said:

And again, have the guts to do correct attributions.

attribute what? forgive me being a [censored] but i don't understand what you want with this.

Atribute the text you're replying to the author. Your newsreader should do this automatically
(e.g., the attribution line above, which is "jim beam <[email hidden]> writes:"😉. You've made several
attacking posts which do not include the attributions- oddly enough, all of them being text from
posts by Jobst. Your last post, from which I took the above text, had a correct attribution to me.
If you're going to attack someone, at least be honest and up front about who it is.

Dear Tim,

When I peek through my Internet Exploder and Google Gropes to compare your "original format" with
Jim, I notice that he uses Linux-Mozilla-Gecko, while you use Gnus and Emacs.

Possibly these differences in your software explain some of the differences in how attributions are
being done? It may be automatic, or it may be a matter of being wretchedly difficult to edit.

If you browse the recent "Signature Bug Testing" thread, you can see where I deliberately tried to
top-post from cycling forums and the post appeared normally in rec.bicycles.tech, but top-posted
through cycling forums.

There is a strange tendency to demand that everyone else format, attribute, insert, edit, snip,
include, and possibly sneeze according to our tastes. It would be nice if Jim's posts showed
who said what more clearly, but it's hardly a question of courage--he's not trying to hide who
says what.

As a lapsed English teacher, I find it amusing how often the fussiest people have no idea what they
look like through other software and on other servers (not you, lest I be misunderstood---your stuff
seems normal to me).

Out of curiosity, do Peter Chisholm's posts look a bit different on your screen? I've never noticed
anyone complaining, but posts from Qui si parla Campagnolo always show up as strangely formatted on
my software.

(And again, lest I be misunderstood, I'm not suggesting that Peter should imitate my peculiar
formatting, much less join me in swearing off the use of semi-colons, a perfectly respectable form
of punctuation that I don't mind reading, but for some reason can no longer bear to use.)

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Possibly these differences in your software explain some of the differences in how attributions
: are being done? It may be automatic, or it may be a matter of being wretchedly difficult to edit.

doesn't matter. clear attributions are fundamental usenet etiquette. if your software doesn't do it
then you need to use software that does. this is far more basic than even the top-posting vs
bottom-posting debate where there is some room for debate. there's none here. it's very bad form.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

(Carl Fogel) said:

When I peek through my Internet Exploder and Google Gropes to compare your "original format" with
Jim, I notice that he uses Linux-Mozilla-Gecko, while you use Gnus and Emacs.

Emacs/Gnus (and all other standard Unix newsreaders) are designed with awareness of the Usenet
standards. Those standards have been in place for many years, so surely the folks writing Mozilla do
also. Microsoft, I'm not so sure that they pay attention to any standards but the ones they happen
to control.

Quoted message said:

Possibly these differences in your software explain some of the differences in how attributions
are being done? It may be automatic, or it may be a matter of being wretchedly difficult to edit.

Perhaps. I haven't used Mozilla to read new in a long time, because I don't like the interface. Gnus
is much faster (slrn is faster yet). My other usual newsreader is MT-NewsWatcher, which is a
Mac-specific newsreader unlike Gnus or Mozilla.

Quoted message said:

If you browse the recent "Signature Bug Testing" thread, you can see where I deliberately tried to
top-post from cycling forums and the post appeared normally in rec.bicycles.tech, but top-posted
through cycling forums.

I didn't follow that thread; when posting through "cycling forums," whatever that is, is that
through a Web interface that is somehow gatewayed to Usenet?

Quoted message said:

There is a strange tendency to demand that everyone else format, attribute, insert, edit, snip,
include, and possibly sneeze according to our tastes. It would be nice if Jim's posts showed
who said what more clearly, but it's hardly a question of courage--he's not trying to hide who
says what.

I don't know if he is or isn't. It seemed , I dunno, questionable to me that sometimes his posts
include correct attributions and sometimes they don't, and the ones that didn't also happened to be
rather vituperative.

Quoted message said:

As a lapsed English teacher,

You seem to have a variety of talents!

Quoted message said:

I find it amusing how often the fussiest people have no idea what they look like through other
software and on other servers (not you, lest I be misunderstood---your stuff seems normal to me).

You are the first person in this newsgroup to accuse me of normalcy!

Quoted message said:

Out of curiosity, do Peter Chisholm's posts look a bit different on your screen? I've never
noticed anyone complaining, but posts from Qui si parla Campagnolo always show up as strangely
formatted on my software.

Yes, Peter's and someone else's, I can't recall who. Instead of using a quote string (e.g, starting
each quoted line with an > or similar character), their newreaders bracket <<quoted material>> in a
non-standard format. It does make the posts look odd, but I've gotten used to it.

(Gary Young) said:

Here, class, we see the breakdown of the borderline personality when its ego props are kicked out
from under it. Where once he strode about proudly, chest puffed out, defying anyone to challenge
him, now he regresses to the fetal position. "Don't hurt me. Please don't hurt me," he cries.

Geez. That was uncalled for. There's no eveidence of BPD. This isn't sci.psychology.psychotherapy.

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<CpSyb.253

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How long would it take for severe indexing to take place if a bent steerer was the true cause?

It probably would have little effect other than concentrating the fretting damage to the rear
quadrant of the races because that is the only place the ball would bear after damaging the
steertube. Usually only the fork blades bend on such collisions but the steertube also takes a
slight bend.

After such a collision, inspecting the frame and fork is important. Often the kink in the system
is only detected by the bicycle not riding straight ahead no-hands. I often see people riding such
bent frames and when I ask them whether they can ride straight ahead no-hands, they look at me
with disbelief that I would suggest doing something so stupid and dangerous as riding no-hands.
The response is generally "I never ride no-hands!" with a tone of disgust.

thanks. IIRC, the fork was a cheap suspension fork, and the crash resulted in a loose fit between
steerer and crown. the bike got a new headset and fork, and was unrideable with the damaged parts,
so i woudlnt have had a chance to check as you say, even if it had occurred to me. the frame was
straight and solid.

thanks for your time, anthony

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a very old headset from someone else's bike that i'm interested in trying to restore
(rather than discard).

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's not perfect, but remember seeing something on andy muzi's site about his refinishing bearing
races for customers with hard to replace components. imo, that is your "least bad" technical
solution. other than being content with keeping it "as-is" and viewing it as an interesting
museum piece.

1. What do we think is the primary cause of indexing with 1" headsets --

a. faulty materials (e.g. non uniform steel alloys)
b. improper hardening of races (quenching or whatever is used) if so is the hardening just on
the surface or at depth in the races?
c. flexy steering tubes
d. improper lubrication practices
e. too much straight-ahead downhill riding / coasting + vibrations
f. crashes (my own experiences indicate crashes are not a problem)

2. It's a given that a bigger headset and different bearings can reduce or delay the
indexing problem.

3. If the problem is just (c), (d), or (e), can Andrew Muzi's headset cutting tools be used to
refinish bearing races ??

- Don Gillies San Diego, CA

Exactly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subsequently I tried very fine adjustments several times as symptoms began.

Quoted message said:

It may have been too late by then.

Wait a minute! If tightness is assumed to be the cause, why would adjusting clearance "too late"
cause the bearing to wear more? This isn't making sense.

Ok, assuming there was more wear. I suspect the real damage happened when bearings were tighter than
they needed to be.

Quoted message said:

The problem is not with adjustment but rather the basic design. Fretting does not rely on
clearance, or for that matter, load, as my dimpled upper Campagnolo Record bearings show. I think
the light weight (flexible) steer tube had the largest effect.

There was no such wear or problems on the A9 bearings that I used for 10 times longer than Dianne's
[I've now seen the photo]. Something must be different . I probably ran mine with more clearance.

~PB, also with longer than average steer tubes (on 25" and 60cm bikes)

Quoted message said:

As you see the roller complement slid off to one side as they always do with this design and had
most of its load on the high side.

Stronglight's cartridge design should be better then as the roller cage stays tight with the races,
but the opposite was true in my experience.

~PB

(Carl Fogel) said:

Out of curiosity, do Peter Chisholm's posts look a bit different on your screen? I've never noticed
anyone complaining, but posts from Qui si parla Campagnolo always show up as strangely formatted on
my software.

We've complained a-plenty, and I bite my virtual tongue nearly every day. Sometimes I write a reply
and then cancel it instead of sending it, realizing that I will only annoy Peter with more of the
same complaints.

I find his posts nearly impossible to read, between the bizarre quoting, the somewhat weird
formatting he writes with (for example, he often ends his last sentence with a '-' instead of a '.';
this leaves me expecting more), and the language cues of all the french stuff I see littered all
over his messages, which, despite my conscious effort to ignore, trick my mind into expecting
weirdness that doesn't actually exist.

Quoted message said:

(And again, lest I be misunderstood, I'm not suggesting that Peter should imitate my peculiar
formatting, much less join me in

No, he should imitate mine. <G> Or, at least, use a quoting style that somewhat resembles the
standard, where a given character begins every line of a quote. This results in many newsreaders
color-coding the quoted part, making it very easy to determine what's written by whom and if it's
new information. That is a good thing because there's so much traffic on this newsfroup that a
message that can't be read quickly is a deleted message; and a deleted message is one that may have
had useful information in it.

Quoted message said:

swearing off the use of semi-colons, a perfectly respectable form of punctuation that I don't mind
reading, but for some reason can no longer bear to use.)

What, is there something wrong with semicolons? I find that they are extremely useful; one example
would be in sentences like this.

Of course, as a recovering english teacher, you can shoot holes in my grammar. I have a peculiar mix
of give-a-damns and don't-give-a-damns which follows no known logic. Seemingly random issues are
addressed either by strict rule adherence, ignorance, or careless
stream-of-consciousness-gut-feeling writing. For example, I very often abuse commas and semicolons
in the elementary "where a spoken pause might be found" sense, even if grammatically incorrect.

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

--
Rick Onanian

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

Here, class, we see the breakdown of the borderline personality when its ego props are kicked out
from under it. Where once he strode about proudly, chest puffed out, defying anyone to challenge
him, now he regresses to the fetal position. "Don't hurt me. Please don't hurt me," he cries.

Quoted message said:

Geez. That was uncalled for. There's no eveidence of BPD. This isn't sci.psychology.psychotherapy.

I think Gary sees it as I do. Jim Beam, aka:

internetwines.comjimbeam.htmlOpen ↗

fits that description precisely. That this ploy is not apparent to some readers strike me as they
accuse me of being rude when I am curt with someone posting BS and snide allusions. Mr. Whiskey has
been ding this for some time now.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]