Main letter in local rag.

Simon Mason said:

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Well done Simon. I think you hit the Mail errr nail on the head.

Jon

Jonathan Schneider said:

Simon Mason said:

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Well done Simon. I think you hit the Mail errr nail on the head.

Shame about the editor's suggested solution, though.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis

Jonathan Schneider said:

Simon Mason said:

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Well done Simon. I think you hit the Mail errr nail on the head.

It's just a shame the Mail goes and comments that it would be best to
have a comprehensive system of cycleways. I wonder where they are
going to put this comprehensive system? Most of the space is full of
road and pavement. :-\
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Jonathan Schneider said:

Simon Mason said:

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Well done Simon. I think you hit the Mail errr nail on the head.

It's just a shame the Mail goes and comments that it would be best to
have a comprehensive system of cycleways. I wonder where they are
going to put this comprehensive system? Most of the space is full of
road and pavement. :-\
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Well done Simon. I think you hit the Mail errr nail on the head.

Well if nothing else it should put people off taking up cycling. Who
wants to take up an activity that exposes you to "a potentially deadly
collision" every day?

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Well done Simon. I think you hit the Mail errr nail on the head.

Well if nothing else it should put people off taking up cycling. Who
wants to take up an activity that exposes you to "a potentially deadly
collision" every day?

I only tell it like it is Tony. I could have been killed 10 times over had I
not had my wits about me, although not everyone's commute involves mixing it
with dozens of HGVs on busy docks roads in driving rain, I'm glad to say. My
point was that a collision on the road between a car and a cyclist can often
be "deadly", whereas a collision between a ped and cyclist is very rarely
so.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> writes:

> http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Well done Simon. I think you hit the Mail errr nail on the head.

Well if nothing else it should put people off taking up cycling. Who
wants to take up an activity that exposes you to "a potentially deadly
collision" every day?

I only tell it like it is Tony. I could have been killed 10 times over had
I not had my wits about me, although not everyone's commute involves
mixing it with dozens of HGVs on busy docks roads in driving rain, I'm
glad to say. My point was that a collision on the road between a car and a
cyclist can often be "deadly", whereas a collision between a ped and
cyclist is very rarely so.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

As a - dare I admit it - habitual pavement cylist in certain places (huge
multi-lane roundabout type of thing), I am always aware that I shouldn't
really be there, and go very slowly and stop for people, pushchairs etc.
getting past. I try to stay very aware of small children, dogs, greytops
etc....I always make a point of making eye contact and saying thank you when
anyone stands back for me.

The biggest problem, I think, with pavement cyclists is these kids who dodge
about like fighter aircraft at 15 mph, even round corners when they can't
possible see anyone coming. These little b****ers are lethal, I agree, and
as a pedestrian I've more than once felt like kicking the thing out from
under them. I.e., they have no road-sense!

I don't know what the answer is ... both the kamikazi kids and motorists
need to be simply more civil and less thoughtless.

Barb

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In response to day after day comments about pavement cyclists in local
letters page.

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

Must be something in the air? Lincolnshire Echo to-day :-
http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=156130&command=displayContent&sourceNode=156603&home=yes&contentPK=18527266
(though this is a fairly regular topic).

--
Colin N.

Lincolnshire is mostly flat ... But the wind is mostly in your face

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I only tell it like it is Tony. I could have been killed 10 times over had I
not had my wits about me, although not everyone's commute involves mixing it
with dozens of HGVs on busy docks roads in driving rain, I'm glad to say. My
point was that a collision on the road between a car and a cyclist can often
be "deadly", whereas a collision between a ped and cyclist is very rarely
so.

That may be how you and others perceive it but given the very small
numbers of deaths and injuries, either everybody is very very lucky to
avoid them all or else in reality its nowhere near as dangerous as you
present.

As long as we keep promoting cycling as an extreme death wish activity
we will never persuade more people to take it up. The reality is that
cycling is very very safe, as safe as walking, not a daily suicide
mission.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I only tell it like it is Tony. I could have been killed 10 times over
had I
not had my wits about me, although not everyone's commute involves mixing
it
with dozens of HGVs on busy docks roads in driving rain, I'm glad to say.
My
point was that a collision on the road between a car and a cyclist can
often
be "deadly", whereas a collision between a ped and cyclist is very rarely
so.

That may be how you and others perceive it but given the very small
numbers of deaths and injuries, either everybody is very very lucky to
avoid them all or else in reality its nowhere near as dangerous as you
present.

As long as we keep promoting cycling as an extreme death wish activity
we will never persuade more people to take it up. The reality is that
cycling is very very safe, as safe as walking, not a daily suicide
mission.

In my experience even if you make it appear "safe", most people will just
find another excuse not to try. Usually along the lines of too cold, hot,
windy, far, wet, etc. I suppose you are right in a way. The fact I am typing
this after 36 000 miles of HGV laden dual carriageways all year round over
the past 7 years must say something. Although it's still scary.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:08:10 +0100, "Barb" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

As a - dare I admit it - habitual pavement cylist in certain places (huge
multi-lane roundabout type of thing), I am always aware that I shouldn't
really be there, and go very slowly and stop for people, pushchairs etc.
getting past. I try to stay very aware of small children, dogs, greytops
etc....I always make a point of making eye contact and saying thank you when
anyone stands back for me.

I'm not sure that what you are doing is illegal.

Home Office Guidance:

"The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible
cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of
traffic and who show consideration to other pavement users when doing
so."

In other words, if issued with a fixed penalty ticket for pavement
cycling you would stand an excellent chance of having it withdrawn on
appeal if you could show that:
1. You were using the pavement out of fear of traffic, and
2. You were showing consideration for other pavement users.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I only tell it like it is Tony. I could have been killed 10 times over
had I
not had my wits about me, although not everyone's commute involves mixing
it
with dozens of HGVs on busy docks roads in driving rain, I'm glad to say.
My
point was that a collision on the road between a car and a cyclist can
often
be "deadly", whereas a collision between a ped and cyclist is very rarely
so.

That may be how you and others perceive it but given the very small
numbers of deaths and injuries, either everybody is very very lucky to
avoid them all or else in reality its nowhere near as dangerous as you
present.

As long as we keep promoting cycling as an extreme death wish activity
we will never persuade more people to take it up. The reality is that
cycling is very very safe, as safe as walking, not a daily suicide
mission.

In my experience even if you make it appear "safe", most people will just
find another excuse not to try. Usually along the lines of too cold, hot,
windy, far, wet, etc. I suppose you are right in a way. The fact I am typing
this after 36 000 miles of HGV laden dual carriageways all year round over
the past 7 years must say something. Although it's still scary.

Yes but the piece about how myths are created and how we inadvertently
reinforce them when we try to rebut them is worth reading:

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2007/09/03/AR2007090300933.html>

Everyone is daily bombarded with media messages by cycling campaigners
that cycling is unsafe. Must wear helmets; must have segregated cycle
ways; must stay away from cars; must wear hi-viz clothing etc etc. No
wonder so many people stop at that and don't bother getting on a bike.
As a promotional own goal its up there with showing videos of plane
crashes at the departure gate.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I only tell it like it is Tony. I could have been killed 10 times over
had I
not had my wits about me, although not everyone's commute involves mixing
it
with dozens of HGVs on busy docks roads in driving rain, I'm glad to say.
My
point was that a collision on the road between a car and a cyclist can
often
be "deadly", whereas a collision between a ped and cyclist is very rarely
so.

That may be how you and others perceive it but given the very small
numbers of deaths and injuries, either everybody is very very lucky to
avoid them all or else in reality its nowhere near as dangerous as you
present.

As long as we keep promoting cycling as an extreme death wish activity
we will never persuade more people to take it up. The reality is that
cycling is very very safe, as safe as walking, not a daily suicide
mission.

In my experience even if you make it appear "safe", most people will just
find another excuse not to try. Usually along the lines of too cold, hot,
windy, far, wet, etc. I suppose you are right in a way. The fact I am typing
this after 36 000 miles of HGV laden dual carriageways all year round over
the past 7 years must say something. Although it's still scary.

Yes but the piece about how myths are created and how we inadvertently
reinforce them when we try to rebut them is worth reading:

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2007/09/03/AR2007090300933.html>

Everyone is daily bombarded with media messages by cycling campaigners
that cycling is unsafe. Must wear helmets; must have segregated cycle
ways; must stay away from cars; must wear hi-viz clothing etc etc. No
wonder so many people stop at that and don't bother getting on a bike.
As a promotional own goal its up there with showing videos of plane
crashes at the departure gate.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

Tom Crispin said:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:08:10 +0100, "Barb" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

As a - dare I admit it - habitual pavement cylist in certain places (huge
multi-lane roundabout type of thing), I am always aware that I shouldn't
really be there, and go very slowly and stop for people, pushchairs etc.
getting past. I try to stay very aware of small children, dogs, greytops
etc....I always make a point of making eye contact and saying thank you when
anyone stands back for me.

I'm not sure that what you are doing is illegal.

It is absolutely illegal. Highways Act 1835, section 72.[1]

"If any person shall wilfully ride upon any footpath or causeway by the
side of any road made or set apart for the use or accommodation of foot
passengers; or shall wilfully lead or drive any horse, ass, sheep, mule,
swine, or cattle or carriage of any description, or any truck or sledge,
upon any such footpath or causeway; or shall tether any horse, ass,
mule, swine, or cattle, on any highway, so as to suffer or permit the
tethered animal to be thereon; every person so offending in any of the
cases aforesaid shall for each and every such offence forfeit and pay
any sum not exceeding [level 2 on the standard scale], over and above
the damages occasioned thereby."

[1]
<http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=highway+act&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=1032567&ActiveTextDocId=1032595&filesize=3430>

--
Matt B

Simon Mason said:

In response to day after day comments about pavement cyclists in local
letters page.

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Is it really that much worse in Hull than where I am in the south east? Or
are /you/ doing something not well? I'm just back from a 22 mile spin.
Various types of roads, loads of junctions and cars encounted, but not one
brown-trouser moment. And that's typical for my rides.

People think the roads are dangerous for cycling because they don't get into
the right habits at an early enough age. That's cycling at all, then
cycling properly. We need to encourage more youngsters to cycle (and on the
road), and provide the training for them to learn to do it safely.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

In response to day after day comments about pavement cyclists in local
letters page.

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Is it really that much worse in Hull than where I am in the south east?
Or are /you/ doing something not well? I'm just back from a 22 mile spin.
Various types of roads, loads of junctions and cars encounted, but not one
brown-trouser moment. And that's typical for my rides.

People think the roads are dangerous for cycling because they don't get
into the right habits at an early enough age. That's cycling at all, then
cycling properly. We need to encourage more youngsters to cycle (and on
the road), and provide the training for them to learn to do it safely.

Don't get me wrong - when I go out with my club (or alone) along quiet
country lanes I have very little fear at all, but if you imagine something
like the Blackwall tunnel road (without the tunnel) with 20% HGVs on it in
the pouring rain with giant roundabouts - that is what my commute is like.
Very few dare venture on it on a bike and I suppose I get a jaundiced view
of it cycling on that day after day. I can honestly say I get to a point on
my journey home after I get away from the docks and city centre where I *do*
feel much safer.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

Barb said:

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
> "Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> writes:
>
>> http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg
> Well done Simon. I think you hit the Mail errr nail on the head.
>
Well if nothing else it should put people off taking up cycling. Who
wants to take up an activity that exposes you to "a potentially deadly
collision" every day?

I only tell it like it is Tony. I could have been killed 10 times over had
I not had my wits about me, although not everyone's commute involves
mixing it with dozens of HGVs on busy docks roads in driving rain, I'm
glad to say. My point was that a collision on the road between a car and a
cyclist can often be "deadly", whereas a collision between a ped and
cyclist is very rarely so.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

As a - dare I admit it - habitual pavement cylist in certain places (huge
multi-lane roundabout type of thing), I am always aware that I shouldn't
really be there, and go very slowly and stop for people, pushchairs etc.
getting past. I try to stay very aware of small children, dogs, greytops
etc....I always make a point of making eye contact and saying thank you when
anyone stands back for me.

The biggest problem, I think, with pavement cyclists is these kids who dodge
about like fighter aircraft at 15 mph, even round corners when they can't
possible see anyone coming. These little b****ers are lethal,

No they aren't,the incidence of deaths from pavemtn cyclits is so close
to zero as to be zero.That makes them non-lethal.
I agree, and

Quoted message said:

as a pedestrian I've more than once felt like kicking the thing out from
under them. I.e., they have no road-sense!

They don't need roaad sense, they aren't on a road!

Quoted message said:

I don't know what the answer is ... both the kamikazi kids and motorists
need to be simply more civil and less thoughtless.

Barb

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Don't get me wrong - when I go out with my club (or alone) along quiet
country lanes I have very little fear at all, but if you imagine something
like the Blackwall tunnel road (without the tunnel) with 20% HGVs on it in
the pouring rain with giant roundabouts - that is what my commute is like.
Very few dare venture on it on a bike and I suppose I get a jaundiced view
of it cycling on that day after day. I can honestly say I get to a point
on my journey home after I get away from the docks and city centre where I
*do* feel much safer.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

Exactly my point - *some* road situations are really not viable for your
average jobbing cyclist, and the only way to bypass a "bad bit" safely is on
the pavement. I consider myself a good and experienced driver, but I
wouldn't dare do some urban dual carriageways in rush hour on a bike, and am
often surprised to see an intrepid cyclist attempting it.

And, frankly, to get off and walk for a distance of, say, a couple of miles
during a commute, is not really on (adding possibly up to half and hour),
when the pavement is relatively clear and much, much safer.

The law should take this into consideration, and apparently does, according
to Tom C?

Barb

In article <[email hidden]>, Simon
Mason
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In response to day after day comments about pavement cyclists in local
letters page.

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/zletter.jpg

Oh good, now the Mail thinks we should all be restricted to
"cycleways" - how many letters are now needed to convince them that the
road is where bikes belong, and car drivers had better get the message
or lose their licenses? As for the multiple daily brushes with death, I
have to wonder how anyone can think cycling is fun or a viable method of
transport.