Sheldon Brown's 2007 Interbike Report

A Muzi said:

Agreed, mostly good designs, generally well made, often free to dirt
cheap at yard sales, thrift stores. Dropped a set of fixie wheels and a
Sugino track crank into a nearly new 1983 this afternoon. Guy's aunt
gave it to him.

I must be going to the wrong garage sales. Used bikes in general are
scarce as hen's teeth around here. What I see on Craigslist are people
that have unrealistic expectations of used values or those Pacific Cycle
bikes or a combo of both. I'll keep riding my free one until something
better comes along. I didn't realize how lucky I was when I found it.

A Muzi said:

Dropped a set of fixie wheels and a
Sugino track crank into a nearly new 1983 this afternoon. Guy's aunt
gave it to him.

Doesn't that make you want to take out a term life insurance policy on
your customer, with you as the beneficiary?

Chalo

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

Dropped a set of fixie wheels and a
Sugino track crank into a nearly new 1983 this afternoon. Guy's aunt
gave it to him.

Chalo said:

Doesn't that make you want to take out a term life insurance policy on
your customer, with you as the beneficiary?

Not at all. We're helpful about a having good brake. And then sometimes
pushy about it when necessary.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they
are being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as
Jamis, Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store
brand bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably
couldn't justify spending the money in the face of declining sales,
since it's very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand,
it's when sales are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on
marketing.

Quoted message said:

More likely, they feel that their market position is so strong that
Interbike serves no real purpose for them.

Oh, you mean as strong as Mavic, Shimano, Campagnolo, or Park Tools,
who had a large presence as did Cliff Bar, leaders in their field.

Jobst Brandt

From someone else that remark would be no big deal, but it's not as if
you're unaware how the industry works and haven't been attending Interbike
trade shows for some time. Trek pulled out of Interbike a number of years
ago, and there was plenty of press coverage of it at the time. Nothing's
changed since. But if you need a brief refresher of the history of Interbike
and Trek-

Trek puts on the largest separate dealer show of their own of any of the
bicycle companies, taking place over 5 days in Madison, Wisconsin, not far
(about 35 miles) from Trek's factory.

Trek decided that it was more important to create a show which would
actually show the new wares when they were coming out (or slightly ahead)
rather than wait for Interbike, which occurs well after the new product
cycle has commenced. It can be argued that it's really dumb to have the
model year change in June, and I'd be on the side that agrees that it's
dumb, but we lost that battle some time ago. Meantime, Trek can bring back
dealers to a huge show, without Vegas-style distractions, and take advantage
of a relatively-captive audience.

There's only so much $$$ to go around, and funds used for marketing are
funds not available for R&D or anything else. If it's essential (which Trek
feels it is) to have a separate show just for their dealers, due to the size
and complexity of their offerings, then you have to figure out whether you
can spare the time & funds to attend Interbike as well. The plus side to
attending Interbike is that you get exposure to more than just a small
number of staff, assuming you can afford to fly in a bunch of people (as we
did). And many feel that there's some sort of thing going on where, if you
don't attend Interbike, you're somehow not supporting the bike business.

In any event, neither Mavic, nor Shimano, nor Campagnolo, nor Park Tools,
nor Cliff Bar would have anything to gain from a separate show, and only
Shimano would possibly have the resources to pull something like that off.
Those companies don't require tons of floor space to achieve their sales
goals, nor integrated marketing strategies (although Shimano works on that).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

SMS said:

Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

Tom 'Johnny Sunset' Sherman said:

I liked Trek a lot better when all their bikes were still made by
cheeseheads.

Takes you back to pre-Bridgestone Treks, back when they were on the ropes
and seriously unprofitable. Hey China has saved that company, like it or
not.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

You're dating yourself. Bridgestone didn't make very many Treks, outside of
the "300" series. You and I are old enough to remember those; very few
others will. The 400 series+ were domestic. Import mountain bikes were
initially made by Merida, then later Giant. The "Jazz" bikes were made by a
smaller company in Taiwan, possibly Ideal?

Trek's initial breakthrough product was probably the 560. Did you attend the
Reno bike show? Didn't they have a billboard of that bike? Black with
pink-ish decals, if I recall correctly.

But I take issue with the idea that China "saved" Trek. To say that requires
you to suggest that China saved the world, and sorry, I just don't think
that's the case. China's emergence as a dominant manufacturing power has
certainly changed the world, but I don't think it saved it. Trek recognized,
in time, that domestic manufacturing of moderately-priced bikes couldn't
continue if they planned to be competitive, or even survive, in the
marketplace. That was definitely painful, but I think many would say China
caused that to happen, rather than saying Trek's decision to embrace
worldwide production was some great decision. Companies that did otherwise
simply would not have continued.

China is giving us product of moderate quality and very low prices... lower
than can be done in the US. And China removes capital expenditure from the
bottom line of corporations trying to fund expansion (or even survival). But
in the end, what China does is create ever-cheaper product for out-of-work
and underpaid Americans to buy. I can't really fault China per se;
eventually, you're dealing with a world-wide economy, and ultimately what
becomes worth $$$ is not your ability to produce but rather show profit by
pushing paper.

This is not where I wanted to go with this...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Quoted message said:

Trek has two large dealer only camp meeting/kool aid fests.
One for the big chains and one for the mom & pops.
This years meeting even included commuting from
one meeting hall to another via bicycle.
No point in Interbike for Trek, they do go to Eurobike..

Scott G.

Actually three dealer shows. The first is a pre-show for the top-100 dealers
that occurs (or has for the past two years) in early June, when the Trek 100
childhood-cancer benefit ride is run. The other two run adjacent dates in
mid-August, with the first one for the larger 200 dealers or so, and the
second one for the rest.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why is it the more you pay for a hotel room, the more likely you will
need to pay for internet and coffee? Seems backwards.

You have to remember that this is Las Vegas. No coffee in the room
(SOP in Vegas) means you leave your room to get it which means you'll
probably, at the very least, drop some loose change in the machines on
your way from and back to your room on your coffee run.

You haven't been to Las Vegas lately, have you? No more coin-operated slot
machines. Not in the airport, not in the casinos I walked through. Spare
quarters are useless, and no sound of coins hitting the tray at the bottom
anymore. The machines have been retooled to take credit cards and bills ($1,
$5, $20). There are machines that are supposedly nickel, quarter and even
penny machines (which generally disappeared some time ago). But you feed
bills into them, not coins, and then choose whatever amount you want to bet
electronically.

I normally blow two quarter rolls each trip ($20). This time, the best I
could muster, and very reluctantly, was $3. It just seems stupid feeding
dollar bills into something that's not going to give you anything back.
Don't ask me why it's more "fun" or whatever with quarters. It just is.

I'm sure they've done studies that show, when people run out of money in
their wallet, they're more likely to start feeding the machine their credit
card than they would have if they'd been using coins.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

SMS wrote:
> Yes, it's interesting that they did not attend. I think that they are
> being hurt big time by the up and coming manufacturers such as Jamis,
> Marin, and Surly, as well as the expanding number of store brand
> bicycles from places like REI and Performance. They probably couldn't
> justify spending the money in the face of declining sales, since it's
> very expensive to attend Interbike. On the other hand, it's when sales
> are hurting that you _want_ to spend money on marketing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom 'Johnny Sunset' Sherman said:

I liked Trek a lot better when all their bikes were still made by
cheeseheads.

([email hidden])

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Takes you back to pre-Bridgestone Treks, back when they were on the ropes
and seriously unprofitable. Hey China has saved that company, like it or
not.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

You're dating yourself. Bridgestone didn't make very many Treks, outside of
the "300" series. You and I are old enough to remember those; very few
others will. The 400 series+ were domestic. Import mountain bikes were
initially made by Merida, then later Giant. The "Jazz" bikes were made by a
smaller company in Taiwan, possibly Ideal?

Trek's initial breakthrough product was probably the 560. Did you attend the
Reno bike show? Didn't they have a billboard of that bike? Black with
pink-ish decals, if I recall correctly.

But I take issue with the idea that China "saved" Trek. To say that requires
you to suggest that China saved the world, and sorry, I just don't think
that's the case. China's emergence as a dominant manufacturing power has
certainly changed the world, but I don't think it saved it. Trek recognized,
in time, that domestic manufacturing of moderately-priced bikes couldn't
continue if they planned to be competitive, or even survive, in the
marketplace. That was definitely painful, but I think many would say China
caused that to happen, rather than saying Trek's decision to embrace
worldwide production was some great decision. Companies that did otherwise
simply would not have continued.

China is giving us product of moderate quality and very low prices... lower
than can be done in the US. And China removes capital expenditure from the
bottom line of corporations trying to fund expansion (or even survival). But
in the end, what China does is create ever-cheaper product for out-of-work
and underpaid Americans to buy. I can't really fault China per se;
eventually, you're dealing with a world-wide economy, and ultimately what
becomes worth $$$ is not your ability to produce but rather show profit by
pushing paper.

This is not where I wanted to go with this...

We do not disagree.
Tom mentioned 'built by cheeseheads' and AFAIK they all were until the
model #300 as you noted. Yes, Merida built a good bikes at a reasonable
price, both for Trek and others. I sold them myself.
Today, Trek simply could not be as large or as profitable without
Chinese outsourcing. Take that any way you like, I make no other claims.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Sheldon Brown said:

I'm back and have written up some of what I saw at Interbike.

Check it out athttp://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2007

Thanks for posting this, Sheldon. It's nice to get a report from
somebody who separates useful innovation from mere novelty.

Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:54:12 -0700, Hank Wirtz:

Quoted message said:

I've got the Stein tool, which is a little more fiddly, but worked
well the one time I used it. I'd rather have the old-skool
Hypercracker than either of those, though. Its lever end was quite a
bit longer, which in my mind is probably safer on the dropout (If it
isn't, one of the engineers/physicists/former metallurgists here can
feel free to correct me). Too bad it's no longer made.

Look at this: The "next best thing" http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm
Nearly "next" to the Pamir Hypercracker...

Andreas

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Nevertheless, I detect an increasing number of dealers *and* suppliers who
would like to have the show moved. Unfortunately, it's HUGE money for the
people who run the show, and they're concerned that moving to another city
would cut into attendance. But a smaller trade show, in my opinion, would
probably be a good thing. It's rather odd to think that an industry that
bleeds huge amounts of red ink has a trade show that's far out of proportion
to the industry's size.

As these trade shows increase in size, the number of venues for them
shrinks. I remember Interbike being in Anaheim, I preferred it as it was
cheaper to travel to, and cheaper to stay there. Unfortunately, only Las
Vegas has both the necessary exhibit space, and the huge number of hotel
rooms that are needed, at relatively moderate prices. You could have
Interbike at the Javits center in NYC, but the hotel costs are astronomical.

Quoted message said:

As these trade shows increase in size, the number of venues for them
shrinks. I remember Interbike being in Anaheim, I preferred it as it was
cheaper to travel to, and cheaper to stay there. Unfortunately, only Las
Vegas has both the necessary exhibit space, and the huge number of hotel
rooms that are needed, at relatively moderate prices. You could have
Interbike at the Javits center in NYC, but the hotel costs are
astronomical.

Anaheim actually does have the combo of convention space & hotel rooms
required, but it's amazing how passionately those from outside California
detest it. It comes up in discussions and gets knocked out of the running
very quickly. Perhaps being from California, you & I are somewhat
anaesthetized to whatever it is they find so objectionable. And perhaps
because it's *Southern* California, people like myself are reluctant to come
to its defense.

The cities that could run the trade show are, as you say, relatively few.
One name that comes up frequently is Salt Lake City. They've got the
convention space, and they have the hotel rooms. The problem is that the
hotel rooms are spread out over a fairly wide area, unlike Las Vegas.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"SMS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Nevertheless, I detect an increasing number of dealers *and* suppliers
who would like to have the show moved. Unfortunately, it's HUGE money for
the people who run the show, and they're concerned that moving to another
city would cut into attendance. But a smaller trade show, in my opinion,
would probably be a good thing. It's rather odd to think that an industry
that bleeds huge amounts of red ink has a trade show that's far out of
proportion to the industry's size.

As these trade shows increase in size, the number of venues for them
shrinks. I remember Interbike being in Anaheim, I preferred it as it was
cheaper to travel to, and cheaper to stay there. Unfortunately, only Las
Vegas has both the necessary exhibit space, and the huge number of hotel
rooms that are needed, at relatively moderate prices. You could have
Interbike at the Javits center in NYC, but the hotel costs are
astronomical.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Nevertheless, I detect an increasing number of dealers *and* suppliers
who would like to have the show moved. Unfortunately, it's HUGE money for
the people who run the show, and they're concerned that moving to another
city would cut into attendance. But a smaller trade show, in my opinion,
would probably be a good thing. It's rather odd to think that an industry
that bleeds huge amounts of red ink has a trade show that's far out of
proportion to the industry's size.

Quoted message said:

"SMS" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

As these trade shows increase in size, the number of venues for them
shrinks. I remember Interbike being in Anaheim, I preferred it as it was
cheaper to travel to, and cheaper to stay there. Unfortunately, only Las
Vegas has both the necessary exhibit space, and the huge number of hotel
rooms that are needed, at relatively moderate prices. You could have
Interbike at the Javits center in NYC, but the hotel costs are
astronomical.

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Anaheim actually does have the combo of convention space & hotel rooms
required, but it's amazing how passionately those from outside California
detest it. It comes up in discussions and gets knocked out of the running
very quickly. Perhaps being from California, you & I are somewhat
anaesthetized to whatever it is they find so objectionable. And perhaps
because it's *Southern* California, people like myself are reluctant to come
to its defense.
The cities that could run the trade show are, as you say, relatively few.
One name that comes up frequently is Salt Lake City. They've got the
convention space, and they have the hotel rooms. The problem is that the
hotel rooms are spread out over a fairly wide area, unlike Las Vegas.

I admit I may be an outlying data point but as far as cities go, there's
NYC (perfect!!) and then there's everything else*.

I liked Anaheim much more than LV but then again I haven't attended in
ten years. What ever could one not like about Anaheim??? Pretty much
inoffensive in my book.

Mike, I believe it was you earlier who noted that the Trade Show
business is not the Bicycle Business.

*I start my week with Metropolitan Diary on Mondays.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew Muzi mused:

Quoted message said:

...
I admit I may be an outlying data point but as far as cities go, there's
NYC (perfect!!) and then there's everything else*....

I would rather go to Hell [1] than live in New York City. Less crowding,
noise, crime and pollution, and much better roads to cycle on.

[1]
<http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&formtype=address&popflag=0&latitude=&longitude=&name=&phone=&level=&cat=&address=&city=hell&state=mi&zipcode=>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Quoted message said:

Andrew Muzi mused:

Quoted message said:

...
I admit I may be an outlying data point but as far as cities go,
there's NYC (perfect!!) and then there's everything else*....

Tom 'Johnny Sunset' Sherman said:

I would rather go to Hell [1] than live in New York City. Less crowding,
noise, crime and pollution, and much better roads to cycle on.
[1]
<http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&formtype=address&popflag=0&latitude=&longitude=&name=&phone=&level=&cat=&address=&city=hell&state=mi&zipcode=>.

Hell's nice but it ain't New York.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andreas Oehler said:

Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:54:12 -0700, Hank Wirtz:

Quoted message said:

I've got the Stein tool, which is a little more fiddly, but worked
well the one time I used it. I'd rather have the old-skool
Hypercracker than either of those, though. Its lever end was quite a
bit longer, which in my mind is probably safer on the dropout (If it
isn't, one of the engineers/physicists/former metallurgists here can
feel free to correct me). Too bad it's no longer made.

Look at this: The "next best thing" http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm
Nearly "next" to the Pamir Hypercracker...

....the only tool I'll never lend to anyone!

Matt O.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

...
China is giving us product of moderate quality and very low prices... lower
than can be done in the US. And China removes capital expenditure from the
bottom line of corporations trying to fund expansion (or even survival). But
in the end, what China does is create ever-cheaper product for out-of-work
and underpaid Americans to buy. I can't really fault China per se;
eventually, you're dealing with a world-wide economy, and ultimately what
becomes worth $$$ is not your ability to produce but rather show profit by
pushing paper....

Yes, the real money is in how to be a more successful parasite on those
who actually produce something of value.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

China is giving us product of moderate quality and very low prices...
lower than can be done in the US. And China removes capital expenditure
from the bottom line of corporations trying to fund expansion (or even
survival). But in the end, what China does is create ever-cheaper product
for out-of-work and underpaid Americans to buy. I can't really fault
China per se; eventually, you're dealing with a world-wide economy, and
ultimately what becomes worth $$$ is not your ability to produce but
rather show profit by pushing paper....

Yes, the real money is in how to be a more successful parasite on those
who actually produce something of value.

I'd say that pretty much sums it up. Remember when the movie "Wall Street"
came out, and it seemed like it was over the top? How funny to look at it
now; it seems so tame, almost childish. How quickly things can change.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

...
China is giving us product of moderate quality and very low prices...
lower than can be done in the US. And China removes capital expenditure
from the bottom line of corporations trying to fund expansion (or even
survival). But in the end, what China does is create ever-cheaper product
for out-of-work and underpaid Americans to buy. I can't really fault
China per se; eventually, you're dealing with a world-wide economy, and
ultimately what becomes worth $$$ is not your ability to produce but
rather show profit by pushing paper....

Yes, the real money is in how to be a more successful parasite on those
who actually produce something of value.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Andreas Oehler schreib:

Quoted message said:

Look at this: The "next best thing"http://www.m-gineering.nl/nbtg.htm
Nearly "next" to the Pamir Hypercracker...

Yes, that looks like a nice product. I wanted to carry that, but the
manufacturer refuses to sell it in the U.S. due to fear of lawsuits.

Sheldon "Paranoia Strikes Deep" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------+
| If one lets fear or hate or anger take possession |
| of the mind, they become self-forged chains. |
| --Helen Gahagan Douglas |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
<http://harriscyclery.com>http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
<http://captainbike.com>http://captainbike.com
Useful articles about bicycles and cycling
<http://sheldonbrown.com>http://sheldonbrown.com

On Oct 8, 12:57 am, M-gineering <[email hidden]> wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

As explained my liability insurance states
categorically that I can not do sales to the USA. T

Just curious, but does it also disallow you from selling to Canada, or
have I just been very unlucky looking for your product in local bike
shops?