Sleeping Bag Confusion

dino said:

1. What is the real difference between down and synthetic bags?

Down bags use natural bird down as their insulation while synthetic bags
use artificial hollow fibres. In each case the point of the insulation
is to trap still air which is what /really/ keeps you warm. Down is
better at doing the air trapping than hollow fibre, weight for weight
(assuming you have reasonable down and fibre, which in any "brand"
sleeping bag is probably a fair assumption), and it also compresses
better, so the primary difference between a synth bag and a down one is
that for a given amount of toastiness the down bag will weigh less and
pack down smaller.
You'll probably notice that down bags typically cost around 3 times as
much, but another thing about down is that if you look after it it
should last a lot longer than synthetic (both will degrade with time,
though keeping down clean and generally caring well for it makes its
rate of drop-off very low) so over time the price difference is actually
much less of an issue.
Down doesn't do well under compression (that is, it is a poor insulator
when you are lying on top of it, *not* that it doesn't compess well; it
compresses /amazingly/ well), so a down bag user starts feeling the need
of a decent sleep mat sooner than their friend in a synthetic bag. A
bit of a moot point if you're using a mat anyway, but it is a difference.
As is often related, a soaking wet down bag is basically useless where a
soaking synthetic will still do something useful. However, a soaking
synthetic is a lot less use than a dry one so whatever you have you want
to keep it dry, and with a bit of care it isn't actually that difficult
to keep a bag dry.
Some folk are allergic to down. Bummer if you want to minimise pack
weight and bulk :-(

Quoted message said:

2. I don't want to spend a fortune (<£100) so what are good
manufacturers to look at?

I've never used Alpkit stuff but it seems to be collecting a good
reputation for reasonable quality no-nonsense kit at very fair prices.
They sell direct (from www.alpkit.co.uk). If you want a down bag you'll
not find much else in your price range (their basic bag for your job is
£105) outside of bargain bins. I won't comment on what's good for
synthetics, 'cause I don't use them and am not very up on what's about.

Quoted message said:

3. It's for use in Spring/Summer/Autumn so what temperature ratings
should I be looking at?

Down to around freezing should be okay, but it depends partly on how you
feel the cold. I've seen people use a -25C rated bag in summer as the
only thing they claimed kept them warm, and some people use freezing
rated bags below freezing and wonder what the fuss is about. It is
sometimes reckoned (but I have no formal proof beyond hearsay) that the
ratings on down bags are often closer to the truth than synthetics,
which tend to be a bit more optimisitic,

Quoted message said:

4. Following on from 3. What is the difference between Comfort/Extreme
temperature ratings?

Comfort means you should be comfy, Extreme means you'll not get a wink
of sleep and your teeth will be chattering all night, you'll feel bloody
freezing but you'll come out of it /without/ hypothermia. So you're
really looking at "Comfort" for regular use.

Quoted message said:

5. And finally what is a good weight to be aiming for? (I realise this
is a hard one to answer!)

As low as possible /given it will be warm enough/. Note you can boost
the warmth with extra clothes or a fleece liner, but that's extra bulk
and weight. Sort the warmth side and then worry about the weight, but
down will be your friend if you want to carry it about.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>, dino <[email hidden]>
writes

Quoted message said:

Now that I have the tent sorted I'm turning my eyes to a replacement
sleeping bag. I currently have a Vango Nitestar 250 which I really like
but it's bulky and heavy and I don't think I'd like to be carrying it
too far. It does a great job for campsites when I have my car to carry
everything in though.

Details:
http://www.vango.co.uk/products/sleepbaginfo.asp?typename=85

I really want one now that I can carry with the tent and do a bit of
wild camping or camping along a route but I'm a bit bewildered by the
variety of bags and types out there so I have a few questions:

1. What is the real difference between down and synthetic bags?

Down = expensive, long lasting, light, comfortable and generally I've
found warm at the low temperature end of their rating. Wet down does
loose a lot of its insulation value but getting any sleeping bag wet
will lead to an uncomfortable night so it is best avoided.

Synthetic = cheap, machine washable, heavy, not as comfortable but less
prone to lose insulation when wet. I have also found them less warm
towards the lower end of their rated temperature range (and that is with
Mountain Equipment synthetic bags - I have 2 synthetic and 3 down ME
bags).

Quoted message said:

2. I don't want to spend a fortune (<£100) so what are good
manufacturers to look at?

At the cheaper end Mountain Equipment have a good range. They also do
expensive models at a similar price point to Rab & PHD.

Their classic & dreamcatcher ranges are good value down bags.

I'd look at the Classic 500 or 750 & the Dreamcatcher 500 or 750.

Ebay Item number 170161849242 is a Classic 500 at just over your price
point delivered.

Alpkit are a less established firm but seem to be doing some well
designed kit at good prices. They do down bags which are worth a look
but I have not seen any myself in the real world so don't know how well
they compare.

http://www.alpkit.com/shop/cart.php?target=category&category_id=253

Quoted message said:

3. It's for use in Spring/Summer/Autumn so what temperature ratings
should I be looking at?

Well that depends on if you intend to go out at the chillier times or
not and how warm you sleep. For me I'd probably go for a bag rated about
0 for colder weather when there's no snow on the ground or frost
forecast.

If you don't fancy camping in frosty or snowy conditions you can get a
higher temperature rated bag for less money and it will weigh and bulk
less :-)

Quoted message said:

4. Following on from 3. What is the difference between Comfort/Extreme
temperature ratings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537

Quoted message said:

5. And finally what is a good weight to be aiming for? (I realise this
is a hard one to answer!)

A down bag between 1000g & 1400g should get you something appropriately
warm.

This page has some reasonable advice:
http://www.tiso.com/ask_expert/buying_guides/sleepingbags/

--

Dominic Sexton

Dominic Sexton said:

In article <[email hidden]>, dino <[email hidden]>
writes

Quoted message said:

Now that I have the tent sorted I'm turning my eyes to a replacement
sleeping bag. I currently have a Vango Nitestar 250 which I really
like but it's bulky and heavy and I don't think I'd like to be
carrying it too far. It does a great job for campsites when I have my
car to carry everything in though.

Details:
http://www.vango.co.uk/products/sleepbaginfo.asp?typename=85

I really want one now that I can carry with the tent and do a bit of
wild camping or camping along a route but I'm a bit bewildered by the
variety of bags and types out there so I have a few questions:

1. What is the real difference between down and synthetic bags?

Down = expensive, long lasting, light, comfortable and generally I've
found warm at the low temperature end of their rating. Wet down does
loose a lot of its insulation value but getting any sleeping bag wet
will lead to an uncomfortable night so it is best avoided.

Synthetic = cheap, machine washable, heavy, not as comfortable but less
prone to lose insulation when wet. I have also found them less warm
towards the lower end of their rated temperature range (and that is with
Mountain Equipment synthetic bags - I have 2 synthetic and 3 down ME bags).

Quoted message said:

2. I don't want to spend a fortune (<£100) so what are good
manufacturers to look at?

At the cheaper end Mountain Equipment have a good range. They also do
expensive models at a similar price point to Rab & PHD.

Their classic & dreamcatcher ranges are good value down bags.

I'd look at the Classic 500 or 750 & the Dreamcatcher 500 or 750.

Ebay Item number 170161849242 is a Classic 500 at just over your price
point delivered.

Alpkit are a less established firm but seem to be doing some well
designed kit at good prices. They do down bags which are worth a look
but I have not seen any myself in the real world so don't know how well
they compare.

http://www.alpkit.com/shop/cart.php?target=category&category_id=253

Quoted message said:

3. It's for use in Spring/Summer/Autumn so what temperature ratings
should I be looking at?

Well that depends on if you intend to go out at the chillier times or
not and how warm you sleep. For me I'd probably go for a bag rated about
0 for colder weather when there's no snow on the ground or frost forecast.

If you don't fancy camping in frosty or snowy conditions you can get a
higher temperature rated bag for less money and it will weigh and bulk
less :-)

Quoted message said:

4. Following on from 3. What is the difference between Comfort/Extreme
temperature ratings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537

Quoted message said:

5. And finally what is a good weight to be aiming for? (I realise this
is a hard one to answer!)

A down bag between 1000g & 1400g should get you something appropriately
warm.

This page has some reasonable advice:
http://www.tiso.com/ask_expert/buying_guides/sleepingbags/

Thanks for all the help....some very good information there from Peter
and yourself.

As I already have a Vango bag and like it I'm leaning towards this one
as I really do want to stay within budget and probably will need to buy
a liner too.

http://www.greatoutdoorsdirect.co.uk/p-132-vango-venom-300-sleeping-bag.aspx

I'm still looking though so any more advice suggestions are more than
welcome 🙂

dino said:

As I already have a Vango bag and like it I'm leaning towards this one
as I really do want to stay within budget and probably will need to buy
a liner too.

http://www.greatoutdoorsdirect.co.uk/p-132-vango-venom-300-sleeping-bag.aspx

Well spotted, I didn't realise you could get a down bag that cheap.

You can do without a liner, but one really positive aspect of them is
they help keep the bag clean. Dirty down will degrade the performance
and probably reduce the overall life of the bag. You can clean them but
it's a major faff to do it yourself or quite expensive to have it done
professioanlly (see
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/downcare.htm).

It's worth a test-lie in person if possible, just to ensure there's
enough room and you can scratch an itch in a distant body-part without
being a contortionist.

To ensure it stays dry in transit I like a formally waterproof bag. I
use one of Ortleib's lighter weight dry-bags for mine, Roos has a
lighter weight Exped one she likes.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Well spotted, I didn't realise you could get a down bag that cheap.

Just spotted it even cheaper on eBay ID 150172183063!

Quoted message said:

You can do without a liner, but one really positive aspect of them is
they help keep the bag clean. Dirty down will degrade the performance
and probably reduce the overall life of the bag. You can clean them but
it's a major faff to do it yourself or quite expensive to have it done
professioanlly (see
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/downcare.htm).

Point taken....probably will get a liner to save on future cleaning.

Quoted message said:

It's worth a test-lie in person if possible, just to ensure there's
enough room and you can scratch an itch in a distant body-part without
being a contortionist.

More good advice but I don't think I'm going to get a chance if I buy
online....not many decent outdoor stores round here 🙁

Quoted message said:

To ensure it stays dry in transit I like a formally waterproof bag. I
use one of Ortleib's lighter weight dry-bags for mine, Roos has a
lighter weight Exped one she likes.

What about double-wrapped in bin liners 🙂

In article <[email hidden]>, dino <[email hidden]>
writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

Well spotted, I didn't realise you could get a down bag that cheap.

Just spotted it even cheaper on eBay ID 150172183063!

The 300 in the name implies that is how many grams of down it has (at
least other manufacturers often include the down weight in the name). If
it really is 300g of down and it isn't the highest quality of down (at
that price it wont be) it wont be a very warm bag.

I would expect it to be OK in summer and warmish spring / autumn nights
but I would personally carry a warmer bag for any colder than that.
However if you sleep warm, are well fed, not exhausted and not camping
high up in a chilly gale you may be comfortable in it. I have spent the
odd long night shivering and lying awake waiting ages for dawn to arrive
so I can get out of my cold bag and warm up. It wasn't much fun so these
days I tend to carry a heavier bag if I'm expecting a cool night.

Quoted message said:

Point taken....probably will get a liner to save on future cleaning.

You can get silk ones from ebay for not too much. I'd avoid the
rectangular ones with pillow pockets which are like a YHA sheet sleeping
bag and go for the mummy shaped ones which will fit your bag better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To ensure it stays dry in transit I like a formally waterproof bag. I
use one of Ortleib's lighter weight dry-bags for mine, Roos has a
lighter weight Exped one she likes.

What about double-wrapped in bin liners 🙂

At least go for the upmarket bin liner - the builder's rubble sack.
Still cheap and relatively light but much more tear resistant.

--

Dominic Sexton

Dominic Sexton said:

In article <[email hidden]>, dino <[email hidden]>
writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well spotted, I didn't realise you could get a down bag that cheap.

Quoted message said:

Just spotted it even cheaper on eBay ID 150172183063!

The 300 in the name implies that is how many grams of down it has (at
least other manufacturers often include the down weight in the name). If
it really is 300g of down and it isn't the highest quality of down (at
that price it wont be) it wont be a very warm bag.

I would expect it to be OK in summer and warmish spring / autumn nights
but I would personally carry a warmer bag for any colder than that.
However if you sleep warm, are well fed, not exhausted and not camping
high up in a chilly gale you may be comfortable in it. I have spent the
odd long night shivering and lying awake waiting ages for dawn to arrive
so I can get out of my cold bag and warm up. It wasn't much fun so these
days I tend to carry a heavier bag if I'm expecting a cool night.

Quoted message said:

Point taken....probably will get a liner to save on future cleaning.

You can get silk ones from ebay for not too much. I'd avoid the
rectangular ones with pillow pockets which are like a YHA sheet sleeping
bag and go for the mummy shaped ones which will fit your bag better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To ensure it stays dry in transit I like a formally waterproof bag. I
use one of Ortleib's lighter weight dry-bags for mine, Roos has a
lighter weight Exped one she likes.

Quoted message said:

What about double-wrapped in bin liners 🙂

At least go for the upmarket bin liner - the builder's rubble sack.
Still cheap and relatively light but much more tear resistant.

--

Dominic Sexton

I'd back-up the silk liner recommendation. Not sure of the
justification but there is a claim that they will improve your
sleeping bag's rating by several degrees. There weight and volume
contribution is nearly insignificant.

I reckon that 300 gm fill is marginal in the Vango bag and that the
bag is over specced, but then at 65 I probably don't have as much
natural warmth that a younger person has. My 3 season bag is a 500
and is too warm in the glens most of the time and is good when it is a
bit colder.

Remember also that you should get yourself a sleeping pad,
particularly with a cheaper bag that will not have that much fill.
Again I would suggest you look at Alpkit, or google for source of the
Gelert ones. The self inflating ones are small and light if you go
for a reduced length one, which I find quite adequate.

Rob

Dominic Sexton said:

The 300 in the name implies that is how many grams of down it has (at
least other manufacturers often include the down weight in the name). If
it really is 300g of down and it isn't the highest quality of down (at
that price it wont be) it wont be a very warm bag.

From the website link:

Fill weight (g/m²): 1 x 180 top / 1 x 120 base.
Insulation: 90/10 600+ Fill white power down.

How does that compare?

In article <[email hidden]>, dino <[email hidden]>
writes

Quoted message said:

Dominic Sexton said:

The 300 in the name implies that is how many grams of down it has
(at least other manufacturers often include the down weight in the
name). If it really is 300g of down and it isn't the highest quality
of down (at that price it wont be) it wont be a very warm bag.

From the website link:

Fill weight (g/m²): 1 x 180 top / 1 x 120 base.
Insulation: 90/10 600+ Fill white power down.

How does that compare?

90/10 600+ (90% down / 10% feather, >600 fill power) is the standard at
the cheaper end of the down market (including the cheaper bags from the
likes of Mountain Equipment & Rab) however there is some confusion with
fill power due to the yanks doing things a different way to us
Europeans.

For example Rab quote the fill power of their budget Atlas range to be
560+EU / 610+US. On the assumption that Vango are using the EU
definition they would seem to be using the normal quality down for the
budget end.

If you are going to be flexible about when you go and not push the low
temperature boundaries of the 2/3 seasons you are hoping for you will
probably get away with the Venom 300. You might have the odd chilly
night or two when you wish that you had spent a bit more but that's life
and you wont die from it!

With a decent thickness of foam or self inflating mat under the bag you
will stay warmer than with less insulation under you. That can make a
significant difference.

Also to a certain extent you can top up the insulation by wearing warm
clothes and even a hat inside the bag. Having a good hot meal before
getting your head down will also help.

As an illustration I have a bag with 250g of 600+ (ME Skyline) which I
only use in relatively warm conditions. If I were out tonight, when
there's a chance of a frost, I'd take my slightly heavier bag that is
only 300g fill but it is 700+ fill power (ME Dewline) and noticeably a
good deal warmer. If I didn't have that one my 500g 600+ FP bag (ME
Classic 500 like the one on ebay I pointed out) would be coming out. It
weighs a fair bit more than the other two but does have the advantage of
a full length zip.

In summary I think you would do better with a bag with more insulation.
Either a 500g fill bag like the Classic 500 or a 300g bag with 700+ FP
like the Dewline. I appreciate that you don't want to spend the extra if
you can avoid it and I think you may get away with the Venom 300 but
personally I prefer to have a better margin to cope with the unplanned.

Finally I got my lightly used Dewline from ebay for just over £50 :-) So
if you are not in a rush and are prepared to buy used you can get a
decent bag for a decent price...

--

Dominic Sexton

dino said:

What about double-wrapped in bin liners 🙂

Smiley noted, but bin liners are pretty hopeless. They *will* tear if
you catch them on anything (like the zip on your rucksack lower
compartment access) or subject them to any degree of heaving, and Sod's
Law will dictate that that's just what will happen when you're in a
particularly wet place...
Rubble sack, as Dominic suggests, is the bargain approach, but a few
pounds extra for a dry-bag and that should last years and years and
ensure you don't get the bag wet in transit or [un]loading.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

dino said:

What about double-wrapped in bin liners 🙂

Smiley noted, but bin liners are pretty hopeless. They *will* tear if
you catch them on anything (like the zip on your rucksack lower
compartment access) or subject them to any degree of heaving, and Sod's
Law will dictate that that's just what will happen when you're in a
particularly wet place...
Rubble sack, as Dominic suggests, is the bargain approach, but a few
pounds extra for a dry-bag and that should last years and years and
ensure you don't get the bag wet in transit or [un]loading.

Exped type dry bags are relatively cheap compared to the items that you
need to keep dry, that the peace of mind they give is well worth the
extra outlay. In a situation where your comfort, or maybe even your
life, is dependent on keeping your gear dry, it doesn't make any sense
to rely on cheap and unreliable poly bags!

Jim Ford

Jim Ford said:

Peter Clinch said:

dino said:

What about double-wrapped in bin liners 🙂

Smiley noted, but bin liners are pretty hopeless. They *will* tear if
you catch them on anything (like the zip on your rucksack lower
compartment access) or subject them to any degree of heaving, and Sod's
Law will dictate that that's just what will happen when you're in a
particularly wet place...
Rubble sack, as Dominic suggests, is the bargain approach, but a few
pounds extra for a dry-bag and that should last years and years and
ensure you don't get the bag wet in transit or [un]loading.

Exped type dry bags are relatively cheap compared to the items that you
need to keep dry, that the peace of mind they give is well worth the
extra outlay. In a situation where your comfort, or maybe even your
life, is dependent on keeping your gear dry, it doesn't make any sense
to rely on cheap and unreliable poly bags!

The bit about bin liners was said tongue-in-cheek (hence the smiley) but
thanks for the info and advice anyway 🙂

Dominic Sexton said:

In summary I think you would do better with a bag with more insulation.
Either a 500g fill bag like the Classic 500 or a 300g bag with 700+ FP
like the Dewline. I appreciate that you don't want to spend the extra if
you can avoid it and I think you may get away with the Venom 300 but
personally I prefer to have a better margin to cope with the unplanned.

Finally I got my lightly used Dewline from ebay for just over £50 :-) So
if you are not in a rush and are prepared to buy used you can get a
decent bag for a decent price...

I think I'm getting slightly carried away and rushing things a bit. In
reality I'm not going to be using this bag until the Spring so I can
afford to wait a bit, look around at all the options and keep an eye out
for a bargain as you suggest.

Through this thread I've seen very few brands mentioned which either
means there are very few good manufacturers or there are a few *really*
good ones that most people have gone for.

So far I'm seeing ME (Mountain Equipment?), Rab, Alpkit and my own
selection of Vango.

Are there any other makes I should look at or alternatively are there
any I should avoid?

Finally, is Vango a decent make? I seem to be the only one mentioning
them and I rarely see them mentioned here at all. It's about the only
brand I remember growing up as a kid in the Scouts but then there's
probably some weird reason for that due to the nature of Scout tents or
something 🙂

Anyway thanks to everyone for the help and advice. Once I've narrowed my
options I'll come back for some further guidance 🙂

dino said:

Through this thread I've seen very few brands mentioned which either
means there are very few good manufacturers or there are a few
*really* good ones that most people have gone for.

So far I'm seeing ME (Mountain Equipment?), Rab, Alpkit and my own
selection of Vango.

Are there any other makes I should look at or alternatively are there
any I should avoid?

Well I didn't mention this because you didn't want to spend too much, but I
chose a Marmot Hydrogen bag which is ultra-light and packs really small. I
bought mine for £190 I think.
http://www.itchyfeet.com/product_info.php?products_id=142

Although it claims to go down to -1, I once camped in November at roughly
that temperature (although it may have been slightly colder since I couldn't
get the car door open due to the hard frost), and I was bloody freezing! But
that is the extreme rating and I didn't die! Great bag for spring and summer
though.

Quoted message said:

Finally, is Vango a decent make? I seem to be the only one mentioning
them and I rarely see them mentioned here at all.

I think they're probably aimed at the low to mid range market.

Paul
--
Latest Posts:
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/pwlldu-head-sunset/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/pic-of-the-day/afon-pyrddin-waterfalls/

dino said:

So far I'm seeing ME (Mountain Equipment?), Rab, Alpkit and my own
selection of Vango.

I can recommend Alpkit stuff. I also like dealing with them - they come
across very friendly. Also the prices they show are the prices you pay -
they include VAT and post. It usually comes next day or so by courier.
Their sleeping mats are good too.

Jim Ford

In article <[email hidden]>, dino <[email hidden]>
writes

Quoted message said:

Dominic Sexton said:

In summary I think you would do better with a bag with more
insulation. Either a 500g fill bag like the Classic 500 or a 300g bag
with 700+ FP like the Dewline. I appreciate that you don't want to
spend the extra if you can avoid it and I think you may get away with
the Venom 300 but personally I prefer to have a better margin to cope
with the unplanned.
Finally I got my lightly used Dewline from ebay for just over £50
:-) So if you are not in a rush and are prepared to buy used you can
get a decent bag for a decent price...

I think I'm getting slightly carried away and rushing things a bit.

That's enthusiasm for you - it is easy to get carried away.

Quoted message said:

In reality I'm not going to be using this bag until the Spring so I can
afford to wait a bit, look around at all the options and keep an eye
out for a bargain as you suggest.

ebay's saved searches that email you when new items are added can be
very helpful.

Quoted message said:

Through this thread I've seen very few brands mentioned which either
means there are very few good manufacturers or there are a few *really*
good ones that most people have gone for.

So far I'm seeing ME (Mountain Equipment?), Rab, Alpkit and my own
selection of Vango.

Mountain Equipment (ME) was the first really big UK player in the down
market. Then Rab grew and now may even be bigger than ME (both have been
taken over by more general companies - ME in the nineties and Rab a
couple of years back). PHD http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/ were formed by
one of the head folks from the early days of ME but are pretty much only
a top end company = expensive!

There are other overseas companies but the bags that are imported tend
to be the high spec ones so out of your budget.

Quoted message said:

Are there any other makes I should look at or alternatively are there
any I should avoid?

Field and Trek do some down bags in their own brand, Stormlite - Rolling
Clouds. They currently have a 500g fill bag on offer at £75.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/product-Stormlite-Rolling-Clouds-500-Sleeping-Bag-31328.htm

Their tech spec page doesn't seem to be working but you can use the
compare link to see the specs. Seems it is 80/20 down / feathers and
does poorly in the comfort rating (indeed it is listed as +6 whereas the
300 is listed as +3 for considerably less weight cost) so I'd probably
give it a miss or go for the 300!

But to be fair my first down bag was an F&T one over 20 years ago and it
put up with a lot of use. It wasn't the warmest for its weight but it
did the job until I was ready to invest a bit more. It still does the
job when I want a down bag that I'm not overly fussed about getting
grubby :-)

Quoted message said:

Finally, is Vango a decent make?

They are OK but they are certainly aiming at the budget end of the
decent kit market. If I could afford to choose a bag from Rab or ME with
similar specs to a Vango I would go for the specialist every time.

Quoted message said:

I seem to be the only one mentioning them and I rarely see them
mentioned here at all. It's about the only brand I remember growing up
as a kid in the Scouts but then there's probably some weird reason for
that due to the nature of Scout tents or something 🙂

The Vango force ten tents were pretty good until the advent of flexible
alloy poles made domes and tunnel tents practical.

--

Dominic Sexton

"dino" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Finally, is Vango a decent make? I seem to be the only one mentioning them
and I rarely see them mentioned here at all. It's about the only brand I
remember growing up as a kid in the Scouts but then there's probably some
weird reason for that due to the nature of Scout tents or something 🙂

I used a Vango Niteline 250 at the weekend which is rated down to minus 10,
with a comfort zone of between 4 and 20C. The min temp was around zero and I
was just about ok but I had all my gear on underneath. God knows how you'd
get on at minus 10 - it would be very uncomfortable but you'd survive, I
supose that's what it means. I'd spend a bit more money if you were going to
camp in April or October or a lot more money for winter.

Graham

dino said:

I think I'm getting slightly carried away and rushing things a bit. In
reality I'm not going to be using this bag until the Spring so I can
afford to wait a bit, look around at all the options and keep an eye out
for a bargain as you suggest.

Good plan, and I know this is hard to do!

Quoted message said:

Through this thread I've seen very few brands mentioned which either
means there are very few good manufacturers or there are a few *really*
good ones that most people have gone for.

ME and Rab are the Big Two usual Suspects of serious British down but
there are plenty of foreign alternatives who make perfectly respectable
bags, and quite a few UK players who aren't quite so specialised as Rab
and ME, and the likes of PHD who are even more specialised but smaller.

Field & Trek and Vango are representative (IMHO) of sound basic kit that
will do what is needed and get you through at a fair price. I used an
F&T bag for over a decade and it never let me down, and it's still going
strong as my Dad's main bag.

From overseas, Marmot, Mountain Hardware, Haglofs, Vau De, Macpac, North
Face are just some of those that can be found in the UK, and there are
foreign equivalents of UK specialists who are just as well respected but
almost never found in the UK (Feathered Friends, Western Mountaineering,
for example).

Quoted message said:

Are there any other makes I should look at or alternatively are there
any I should avoid?

There are probably some crappy down bags out there, but for the most
part it's self-selecting for Real Kit because it's much harder to work
with than synthetic fills, and much more expensive, so there isn't
really much of a market underneath the fair stuff.

Quoted message said:

Finally, is Vango a decent make? I seem to be the only one mentioning
them and I rarely see them mentioned here at all. It's about the only
brand I remember growing up as a kid in the Scouts but then there's
probably some weird reason for that due to the nature of Scout tents or
something 🙂

It's not the out and out best there is, but it's okay and has got a lot
of people to serious places and got them out again. The fact that it's
not the top of the tree is reflected in the prices, and a fair bag you
can afford is better than a perfect bag left in the shop because you
didn't have the money.

But do keep watching the bargain bins. My main bag (an ME Lightline
550) was £150 down from £230 and my summer bag (ME Dewline) £100 down
from £160. It might be worth dropping Magic Mountain a line, ME's
factory outlet for seconds and end of line kit. See
http://www.magic-mountain.co.uk/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

The message <[email hidden]>
from Dominic Sexton <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Mountain Equipment (ME) was the first really big UK player in the down
market. Then Rab grew and now may even be bigger than ME (both have been
taken over by more general companies - ME in the nineties and Rab a
couple of years back). PHD http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/ were formed by
one of the head folks from the early days of ME but are pretty much only
a top end company = expensive!

I get by with a couple of ME bags from the 70s - A Lightline and a
Redline. I took both last weekend as a frost had been forecast but I was
quite warm in the Lightline plus a liner.

Back in the 60s I had an acquaintance (Pete Whyatt where are you now?)
who had an extra long duvet (that's a jacket, not a bed covering) made
by someone called Hutchinson which impressed me which is one of the
reasons I went for ME when I could afford a decent (slightly second
hand) bag. (£26 for a Redline, list price £30). The Lightline came
several years later, 1977 I think, and was bought new.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.