Iowa county bans RAGBRAI

..

Quoted message said:

Sad: Someone died in 2004 after getting stuck in a road snake,

Predictable: county lost lawsuit needs to come up with $5k, throws a
hissyfit.

funny: County supervisor believes that the county's charities didn't
clear $5k collectively. "it's not worth it" "they're not welcome" etc.

===========================================================================

Boston Marathon, NY Marathon, Parades, walks for hunger, ............. this
is totally NUTS!

The county spent $5k. I bet the riders spent more than that on diet cola.

And why did the county settle? Why didn't the county tell the widow, sorry
lady but your old man
fell off his bicycle and it is too bad.

If I lived in that county, I would take out my old clunker and go for a
ride. Once I spotted a sewer grate, crack in the road,
anything .......... I would fall off the clunker. Oh my back and oh my
bicycle.

Give me the money. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

============================

dot' max said:

Sad: Someone died in 2004 after getting stuck in a road snake,

Predictable: county lost lawsuit needs to come up with $5k, throws a
hissyfit.

funny: County supervisor believes that the county's charities didn't
clear $5k collectively. "it's not worth it" "they're not welcome" etc.

“Have the fun but if something goes wrong, don’t sue the county because
our roads are not made for bicycles” - County Board Chairman Dan Muhlbauer.

I thought the roads not being made for bicycles was only in Illinois.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

Don't these rides require that ALL riders sign a waiver? The county
should have known this and fought it on these grounds! After all, they
probably mandated the waiver before granting permission to conduct the
ride through their county in the first place.

So we suffer for their oversight. Stupid.

- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

My website:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

On Oct 27, 7:21 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

Sad: Someone died in 2004 after getting stuck in a road snake,

Quoted message said:

Predictable: county lost lawsuit needs to come up with $5k, throws a
hissyfit.

Quoted message said:

funny: County supervisor believes that the county's charities didn't
clear $5k collectively. "it's not worth it" "they're not welcome" etc.

===========================================================================

Boston Marathon, NY Marathon, Parades, walks for hunger, ............. this
is totally NUTS!

The county spent $5k. I bet the riders spent more than that on diet cola.

And why did the county settle? Why didn't the county tell the widow, sorry
lady but your old man
fell off his bicycle and it is too bad.

If I lived in that county, I would take out my old clunker and go for a
ride. Once I spotted a sewer grate, crack in the road,
anything .......... I would fall off the clunker. Oh my back and oh my
bicycle.

Give me the money. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

============================

The county most likely settled because juries have a pronounced
tendency to favor grieving widows over faceless bureaucracies and the
county board's attorney advised them, "It's better to settle for $5000
now rather than risk a jury award of $500,000." True, judges can and
often do reduce jury awards but even when they do the reduction is
rarely more than about 50% and who ever heard of a wrongful death
award for a measly $10k?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

(It's Chris) said:

Don't these rides require that ALL riders sign a waiver? The county
should have known this and fought it on these grounds! After all, they
probably mandated the waiver before granting permission to conduct the
ride through their county in the first place.

So we suffer for their oversight. Stupid.

- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

My website:http://geocities.com/czcorner

The county may have insisted on a signed liability waiver from every
rider but in truth that type of waiver is really designed to
discourage people from *filing* lawsuits. They don't constitute a
foolproof defense if/when a suit is filed, particularly when it is a
wrongful death suit brought against a large faceless government agency
by grieving survivors.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Bob Hunt said:

(It's Chris) said:

Don't these rides require that ALL riders sign a waiver? The county
should have known this and fought it on these grounds! After all, they
probably mandated the waiver before granting permission to conduct the
ride through their county in the first place.

So we suffer for their oversight. Stupid.

The county may have insisted on a signed liability waiver from every
rider but in truth that type of waiver is really designed to
discourage people from *filing* lawsuits. They don't constitute a
foolproof defense if/when a suit is filed, particularly when it is a
wrongful death suit brought against a large faceless government agency
by grieving survivors.

The unfortunate result could be laws resulting in more Boub type
decisions:
<http://www.state.il.us/COURT/Opinions/SupremeCourt/1998/October/Opinions/HTML/84246.htm>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

Bob said:

(It's Chris) said:

Don't these rides require that ALL riders sign a waiver? The county
should have known this and fought it on these grounds! After all, they
probably mandated the waiver before granting permission to conduct the
ride through their county in the first place.

Quoted message said:

So we suffer for their oversight. Stupid.

Quoted message said:

- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Quoted message said:

If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

Quoted message said:

My website:http://geocities.com/czcorner

The county may have insisted on a signed liability waiver from every
rider but in truth that type of waiver is really designed to
discourage people from *filing* lawsuits. They don't constitute a
foolproof defense if/when a suit is filed, particularly when it is a
wrongful death suit brought against a large faceless government agency
by grieving survivors.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

They don't even slow down the lawsuits and most will not even bother
to get them these days. Why? In the US a release or waiver is only
valid for negligence. Trouble is that the law has a provision for
"gross negligence" which can not be released even with a signed
waiver. What's the difference? Its what ever the court happens to
decide. I am no lawyer and don't play one on tv, but the releases
really mean little in the real world.

Mark said:

They don't even slow down the lawsuits and most will not even bother
to get them these days. Why? In the US a release or waiver is only
valid for negligence. Trouble is that the law has a provision for
"gross negligence" which can not be released even with a signed
waiver. What's the difference? Its what ever the court happens to
decide. I am no lawyer and don't play one on tv, but the releases
really mean little in the real world

In addition, even if the waiver were found to apply, getting to that
point would likely cost more than $5,000 in legal fees.

Austin

Tom Sherman said:

"Have the fun but if something goes wrong, don't sue the county because
our roads are not made for bicycles" - County Board Chairman Dan Muhlbauer.

The lesson they obviously failed to learn is that they need to plan
and maintain roads for all lawful vehicles, not just automobiles.
RAGBRAI or no, they'll still be vulnerable to a lawsuit the next time
a cyclist suffers serious injury because he/she didn't see one of
these hazards in time. Even if money was their only concern, planning
ahead would still probably cost them less than a lawsuit.

- JR

Bob said:

The county most likely settled because juries have a pronounced
tendency to favor grieving widows over faceless bureaucracies and the
county board's attorney advised them, "It's better to settle for $5000
now rather than risk a jury award of $500,000."

the insurance company settled for $300k. the $5k was the
county's deductible.

wrongful death awards are based on the decedent's potential
lifetime earnings. if the plaintiff's husband made $30k/yr,
that's only the equivalent of 10 years. sounds like she settled
for a quite low amount.

the county should fix their damn roads so they are safe. it was
their negligence that caused the tire-trapping accident.

Using your thinking ::: the county, state will outlaw the use of "their"
roads for bicycles.

Isn't that great /// a useless lawyer and some dope who can't ride his
bicycle have ruined
it for all of the rest of us..

And you wonder why this country is turning into a pile of [censored]?

===================================================================

"SlowRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

"Have the fun but if something goes wrong, don't sue the county because
our roads are not made for bicycles" - County Board Chairman Dan
Muhlbauer.

The lesson they obviously failed to learn is that they need to plan
and maintain roads for all lawful vehicles, not just automobiles.
RAGBRAI or no, they'll still be vulnerable to a lawsuit the next time
a cyclist suffers serious injury because he/she didn't see one of
these hazards in time. Even if money was their only concern, planning
ahead would still probably cost them less than a lawsuit.

- JR

On Oct 31, 7:28 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Using your thinking ::: the county, state will outlaw the use of "their"
roads for bicycles.

I don't see how that follows. Under my thinking, the county would
simply assume responsibility for making their roads safe for all
vehicles. Some hazards (such as potholes) affect cars as well as
bicycles, so chasing bikes off the road wouldn't help.

Quoted message said:

Isn't that great /// a useless lawyer and some dope who can't ride his
bicycle have ruined
it for all of the rest of us..

I'm not defending or criticizing the cyclist or the lawyer, since I
don't know enough about the case and I haven't seen the road hazard in
question. The fact is, if it happens again, there's a chance the
county will be sued again. And again, the county may have to pay a
hefty settlement. In the long run, I still say prevention is cheaper
than neglect.

- JR

"SlowRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Oct 31, 7:28 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Using your thinking ::: the county, state will outlaw the use of "their"
roads for bicycles.

I don't see how that follows. Under my thinking, the county would
simply assume responsibility for making their roads safe for all
vehicles. Some hazards (such as potholes) affect cars as well as
bicycles, so chasing bikes off the road wouldn't help.

Check this link to see what effects a similar situation has had in Illinois:

http://bikelib.org/boubcase/disincentivelist03.htm

"Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Gp%Vi.4289$sZ.1846@trndny04...

Quoted message said:

Isn't that great /// a useless lawyer and some dope who can't ride his
bicycle have ruined
it for all of the rest of us..

Some dope who can't ride his bike? How do you know that? You have no
right whatsoever to say anything like that. Have you ridden the road in
question? Have you ever ridden RAGBRAI? Do you know anything first hand
about the accident?

My guess is No, No, No, and No.

I was in the pack on that road just in front of the accident. It was on a
fairly steep downhill just past the crest of the hill with hundreds of bikes
shoulder to shoulder. The rider's ability was not a factor in the least.
If someone was in the wrong place in the pack on that downhill it would have
been difficult if not impossible to avoid being crowded into dropping a
wheel in one of those cracks.

For your information there were many, many riders who got caught in cracks
in that section of road that morning, many who went down, a few with
injuries that took them out for the day - or the ride - and tragically one
killed. I was on my sixth RAGBRAI that day I say without hesitation that
those were the BY FAR the worst cracks in any road I had ridden at anytime
in my life. They varied from less than a tire width to several tire widths
wide and extended for I would guess a half mile or more down that hill.
Many people in the pack around me were commenting on how dangerous a
situation it was. I heard someone near me say out loud that someone was
likely to be seriously hurt today. Someone else then called out "Or
killed!" In all the group rides I have done I have never seen cracks more
severe than these for a longer distance than these. And, to top it off,
they were NOT marked in anyway, which is unusual on RAGBRAI.

I am NOT commenting on right or wrong of the lawsuit or the settlement or
anything like that. I am only saying it is wrong to make negative comments
about the rider. No Sir Thomas, this rider was not a dope. He was just the
most unlucky of the unlucky ones who had the misfortune of being in a place
in the pack where he could not avoid the worst cracks most have ever seen on
a public highway.

You can rightly comment on many things pertaining to this event, but you
have zero credibility to call someone "some dope who can't ride his bike".
To do so would open yourself up to others pigeon holing you as just some
dope ranting about something he is ignorant of in an internet newsgroup.

Gary Mishler said:

For your information there were many, many riders who got caught in cracks
in that section of road that morning, many who went down, a few with
injuries that took them out for the day - or the ride - and tragically one
killed.

I read that the county assigned a traffic cop to the area to warn
cyclists of the hazard, and then that cop later left the scene for
whatever reason before everyone had gone by. That could certainly be
taken as gross negligence since the hazard was identified, deemed to be
dangerous enough to assign a cop, and then later abandoned with no warnings.

"Diablo Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
..

Quoted message said:

I read that the county assigned a traffic cop to the area to warn cyclists
of the hazard, and then that cop later left the scene for whatever reason
before everyone had gone by. That could certainly be taken as gross
negligence since the hazard was identified, deemed to be dangerous enough
to assign a cop, and then later abandoned with no warnings.

Hmm, there was no one there warning riders when I came through which was
only a few mins before the fatal accident. The accident was in the morning.
Either what you related above occurred before the accident, or I would guess
more likely, they stationed a State Trooper to warn other riders after the
accident and he later left when the majority of riders had been buy???
Don't know either way.

I have toured over a good part of north America,
east/west/north/south/Canada/etc.

Along the way I have encountered many roads which were dangerous for
bicycles. Sewer grates, pot holes,
ditches, .. on the on.

Never once have I ever thought that anyone but me was in charge of avoiding
the dangers.

You must be a member of the "Nanny State" thinking .. waw waw waw ... fix
the roads,, I can't ride .. waw waw waw.

What a crock of [censored]. It is pathetic lawyers and the nanny thinking babies
like yourself who have ruined My Country.

Who did the pioneers sue when the wagon wheel hit a hole in the unpaved
road?

One reason I very seldom will participate in group rides is because of the
nanny riders like yourself.

You and the lawyers make me sick.

=============================
"Gary Mishler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:A56Wi.180034$Fc.103413@attbi_s21...

Quoted message said:

"Sir Thomas of Cannondale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Gp%Vi.4289$sZ.1846@trndny04...

Quoted message said:

Isn't that great /// a useless lawyer and some dope who can't ride his
bicycle have ruined
it for all of the rest of us..

Some dope who can't ride his bike? How do you know that? You have no
right whatsoever to say anything like that. Have you ridden the road in
question? Have you ever ridden RAGBRAI? Do you know anything first hand
about the accident?

My guess is No, No, No, and No.

I was in the pack on that road just in front of the accident. It was on a
fairly steep downhill just past the crest of the hill with hundreds of
bikes shoulder to shoulder. The rider's ability was not a factor in the
least. If someone was in the wrong place in the pack on that downhill it
would have been difficult if not impossible to avoid being crowded into
dropping a wheel in one of those cracks.

For your information there were many, many riders who got caught in cracks
in that section of road that morning, many who went down, a few with
injuries that took them out for the day - or the ride - and tragically one
killed. I was on my sixth RAGBRAI that day I say without hesitation that
those were the BY FAR the worst cracks in any road I had ridden at anytime
in my life. They varied from less than a tire width to several tire
widths wide and extended for I would guess a half mile or more down that
hill. Many people in the pack around me were commenting on how dangerous a
situation it was. I heard someone near me say out loud that someone was
likely to be seriously hurt today. Someone else then called out "Or
killed!" In all the group rides I have done I have never seen cracks more
severe than these for a longer distance than these. And, to top it off,
they were NOT marked in anyway, which is unusual on RAGBRAI.

I am NOT commenting on right or wrong of the lawsuit or the settlement or
anything like that. I am only saying it is wrong to make negative
comments about the rider. No Sir Thomas, this rider was not a dope. He
was just the most unlucky of the unlucky ones who had the misfortune of
being in a place in the pack where he could not avoid the worst cracks
most have ever seen on a public highway.

You can rightly comment on many things pertaining to this event, but you
have zero credibility to call someone "some dope who can't ride his bike".
To do so would open yourself up to others pigeon holing you as just some
dope ranting about something he is ignorant of in an internet newsgroup.

In article <qnaWi.2619$mv.1666@trndny08>,

Sir Thomas of Cannondale said:

I have toured over a good part of north America,
east/west/north/south/Canada/etc.

Along the way I have encountered many roads which were dangerous for
bicycles. Sewer grates, pot holes,
ditches, .. on the on.

Never once have I ever thought that anyone but me was in charge of avoiding
the dangers.

You must be a member of the "Nanny State" thinking .. waw waw waw ... fix
the roads,, I can't ride .. waw waw waw.

When one is in a pack of 15 Thousand other riders, it's somewhat harder
to see and avoid road hazards than it is when you're the heroic American
Icon flexing his bike fu in solitude.

You probably ought to try RAGBRAI a couple of times before you shoot
your self-acknowleged ignorant yap off about it.

For that matter, try riding in a friggin' paceline for a while.

..max

--
The part of betatron @ earthlink . net was played by a garden gnome

max said:

In article <qnaWi.2619$mv.1666@trndny08>,

Sir Thomas of Cannondale said:

I have toured over a good part of north America,
east/west/north/south/Canada/etc.

Along the way I have encountered many roads which were dangerous for
bicycles. Sewer grates, pot holes,
ditches, .. on the on.

Never once have I ever thought that anyone but me was in charge of
avoiding the dangers.

You must be a member of the "Nanny State" thinking .. waw waw waw
... fix the roads,, I can't ride .. waw waw waw.

When one is in a pack of 15 Thousand other riders, it's somewhat
harder to see and avoid road hazards than it is when you're the
heroic American Icon flexing his bike fu in solitude.

You probably ought to try RAGBRAI a couple of times before you shoot
your self-acknowleged ignorant yap off about it.

For that matter, try riding in a friggin' paceline for a while.

What does any of that have to do with suing the State if you crash?

Bill "personal responsibility...RIP" S.