Differential front and rear tyres

Artoi said:

So the logic is as follows.

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at the
front would balance the performance benefits of each and would retire at
a similar time.

Yes, rear tires definitely wear much faster for a number of reasons.
And front tires either rot or get cut before they wear out.

So, when the rear tire wears out, move the front tire to the rear, and
install a new tire on the front. This insures that the newer tire is
on front.

As for mixing different types of tires, see:

http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#mixing

Art Harris

Artoi who? said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front
and back on a road bike? Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria
Open Corsa Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet
the front one is still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what
if I paired the Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant
Conti GP4000 at the rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered
to be a race tyre that wears pretty quickly.

Quoted message said:

So the logic is as follows.

Quoted message said:

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Quoted message said:

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at
the front would balance the performance benefits of each and would
retire at a similar time.

Quoted message said:

Any comments?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rear-flats.html

Jobst Brandt

Artoi said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front and
back on a road bike? Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria Open Corsa
Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet the front one is
still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what if I paired the
Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant Conti GP4000 at the
rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered to be a race tyre that
wears pretty quickly.

So the logic is as follows.

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at the
front would balance the performance benefits of each and would retire at
a similar time.

Any comments?
--

pro and semi pro riders do it all the time. they will have diferent
tires and wheels.
i have tried having a thinner tire on the back to reduce friction on
the back and it works. have a 23c in the front and a 20c on the back.
you should pick 0.5 mph on your average ride. con's you might get more
flats!
carlos
www.bikingthings.com
ride fast, get fit, live better, be happy

Artoi said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front and
back on a road bike?

Why do you/people think that front and rear should be the same?

Quoted message said:

Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria Open Corsa
Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet the front one is
still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what if I paired the
Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant Conti GP4000 at the
rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered to be a race tyre that
wears pretty quickly.

So the logic is as follows.

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Quoted message said:

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at the
front would balance the performance benefits of each and would retire at
a similar time.

Any comments?
--

You have seen the light...hallelujah ;-) or put the new one in front
and move the front tyre to the back.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Quoted message said:

i have tried having a thinner tire on the back to reduce friction on
the back and it works. have a 23c in the front and a 20c on the back.
you should pick 0.5 mph on your average ride. con's you might get more
flats!

I'm skeptical that changing from a 23 to a 20c tire in the rear would be
responsible for anything close to a .5mph difference. Even the professionals
run wider tires than that, and if they could get a speed boost using a
narrower tire, they'd do it.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Artoi said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front and
back on a road bike? Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria Open Corsa
Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet the front one is
still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what if I paired the
Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant Conti GP4000 at the
rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered to be a race tyre that
wears pretty quickly.

So the logic is as follows.

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at the
front would balance the performance benefits of each and would retire at
a similar time.

Any comments?
--

pro and semi pro riders do it all the time. they will have diferent
tires and wheels.
i have tried having a thinner tire on the back to reduce friction on
the back and it works. have a 23c in the front and a 20c on the back.
you should pick 0.5 mph on your average ride. con's you might get more
flats!
carlos
www.bikingthings.com
ride fast, get fit, live better, be happy

Artoi said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front and
back on a road bike? Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria Open
Corsa Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet the
front one is still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what if I
paired the Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant Conti
GP4000 at the rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered to be a
race tyre that wears pretty quickly.

So the logic is as follows.

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at the
front would balance the performance benefits of each and would retire
at a similar time.

Any comments?

I think it's a reasonable idea.

~PB

In article <[email hidden]>,

Lou Holtman said:

Artoi said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front and
back on a road bike?

Why do you/people think that front and rear should be the same?

Quoted message said:

Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria Open Corsa
Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet the front one is
still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what if I paired the
Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant Conti GP4000 at the
rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered to be a race tyre that
wears pretty quickly.

So the logic is as follows.

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Quoted message said:

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at the
front would balance the performance benefits of each and would retire at
a similar time.

Any comments?
--

You have seen the light...hallelujah ;-) or put the new one in front
and move the front tyre to the back.

Actually that's what I used to do, so no news to me.

My specific question here is somewhat different, one where one
deliberately select and pair a more wear resistant tyre for the rear and
a higher TPI tyre with poorer wear for the front, aiming to equalize the
usage time for the pair.
--

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

pro and semi pro riders do it all the time. they will have diferent
tires and wheels.
i have tried having a thinner tire on the back to reduce friction on
the back and it works. have a 23c in the front and a 20c on the back.
you should pick 0.5 mph on your average ride. con's you might get more
flats!

Interesting idea. Have to keep that as an option.

But I have read elsewhere that the 20mm actually has greater rolling
resistance than the 23mm. While the 20mm has lower air resistance. So
shouldn't the setup be the reverse?
--

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Artoi who? said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front
and back on a road bike? Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria
Open Corsa Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet
the front one is still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what
if I paired the Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant
Conti GP4000 at the rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered
to be a race tyre that wears pretty quickly.

Quoted message said:

So the logic is as follows.

Quoted message said:

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Quoted message said:

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at
the front would balance the performance benefits of each and would
retire at a similar time.

Quoted message said:

Any comments?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rear-flats.html

Jobst Brandt

Yes, that should have been the 4th point. Tendency for rear punctures,
thereby needing a tougher tyre at the rear.
--

Artoi who? said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front
and back on a road bike? Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria
Open Corsa Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet
the front one is still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what
if I paired the Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant
Conti GP4000 at the rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered
to be a race tyre that wears pretty quickly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So the logic is as follows.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at
the front would balance the performance benefits of each and would
retire at a similar time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any comments?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rear-flats.html

Quoted message said:

Yes, that should have been the 4th point. Tendency for rear
punctures, thereby needing a tougher tyre at the rear.

If there were such a tire, and there isn't, Carl Fogel would have long
ago switched to them instead of patching tubes. The tire you seek you
don't want because it doesn't roll worth a damn. Besides, my front
tires (the same as the ones on the rear) wear out nearly as fast as
rear tires from braking and cornering. In any case, when switched to
the rear they wear out in a few hundred miles.

Jobst Brandt

Artoi said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front and
back on a road bike? Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria Open Corsa
Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet the front one is
still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what if I paired the
Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant Conti GP4000 at the
rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered to be a race tyre that
wears pretty quickly.

So the logic is as follows.

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at the
front would balance the performance benefits of each and would retire at
a similar time.

Any comments?

Dear Artoi,

What's the advantage of having the tires "retire at the same time"?

If there isn't any advantage to synchronized tire replacement, then
you're back to trying to decide whether you want a tire that lasts
longer or rolls easier, presumably based on some tests of tires in a
magazine--and those tires may have changed by the time you decide to
buy one and ride it for months.

Frankly, handling doesn't seem likely to be something that the rider
can actually feel during ordinary riding, at least not between two
700c tires of roughly the same width, tread pattern, and inflation.

After all, no one routinely rides so close to the limit that a
different tire of the same width and inflation would cause a crash.
(If anyone did, he'd be crashing all the time, since the difference
between the tires is likely to be rather smaller than the variation in
speed and road surface.)

As for rolling resistance differences, it's unlikely that any rider
can "feel" the kind of speed difference between one 700c tire and
another of the same width, even if he compares the best tire to the
worst tire.

This test measured the RR for 18 700c tires:

http://ddata.over-blog.com/xxxyyy/0/02/72/10/clincher-specs.html

You can compare the effect of RR on this calculator:

http://austinimage.com/bp/velocityN/velocity.html

300 watt
kmh speed
RR kmh increase
#01 best tire 0.0038 37.7106 1.3
#06 6th best 0.0048 37.2669 0.9
#13 6th worst 0.0058 36.8238 0.5
#18 worst tire 0.0069 36.3373 0.0

It's unlikely that a rider can actually feel the 0.85 mph difference
between the best tire's 23.43 mph and the worst tire's 22.58 mph while
he's putting out 300 watts--he needs a digital speedometer to measure
that kind of difference.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

What's the advantage of having the tires "retire at the same time"?

I'm with you Carl... 'cause I'm lazy. I've been running a Michelin Pro
2 on the front and a Krylion on the back and replace each when
necessary. I still get a lot more mileage out of the front.

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

What's the advantage of having the tires "retire at the same time"?

I'm with you Carl... 'cause I'm lazy. I've been running a Michelin Pro
2 on the front and a Krylion on the back and replace each when
necessary. I still get a lot more mileage out of the front.

Dear Ron,

With highwheelers, the teacup was turned upside down, but the tempest
was much the same.

On highwheelers, the little rear wheel had to rotate far more times
than the big front wheel.

Bearings were primitive.

So ads in "Bicycle Annual" for 1879 boasted if the hind wheel, as they
called it, had super-duper bearings:

http://i9.tinypic.com/8fe6138.jpg

It's from an unnumbered page near the end of this google book, so a
direct link is well-nigh impossible:

books.google.combooksOpen ↗

I haven't figured out what the difference is between the detachable
foot and toe rests that clamp onto the highwheeler fork.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--

pro and semi pro riders do it all the time. they will have diferent
tires and wheels.
i have tried having a thinner tire on the back to reduce friction on
the back and it works. have a 23c in the front and a 20c on the back.
you should pick 0.5 mph on your average ride. con's you might get more
flats!
carloswww.bikingthings.com
ride fast, get fit, live better, be happy

The general accepted wisdom is the opposite i.e. wider tire at the
rear and narrower one at the front. The rationale being that for the
same type of tire the wider one will generally have a lower rolling
resistance (plus the fact that most of your weight is on the rear) and
the front tire's higher rolling resistance is offset by improved
aerodynamics (in that the aerodynamics of the front wheel are more
important than the rear since it penetrates the air first and a
narrower tire is more aligned with the rim than a wider one). However
all of the above is difficult to prove (in that the improvement can
fall within the realm of statistical standard error) so if you "feel"
faster with your setup then stick with it.

Quoted message said:

It's unlikely that a rider can actually feel the 0.85 mph difference
between the best tire's 23.43 mph and the worst tire's 22.58 mph while
he's putting out 300 watts--he needs a digital speedometer to measure
that kind of difference.

That difference is actually larger than I would have expected. I agree that a
rider probably can't feel the difference in speed, but if pushing hard on a
fast group ride, it might make the difference between keeping up and getting
dropped.

Artoi said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Lou Holtman said:

Artoi said:

I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front and
back on a road bike?

Why do you/people think that front and rear should be the same?

Quoted message said:

Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria Open Corsa
Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet the front one is
still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what if I paired the
Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant Conti GP4000 at the
rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered to be a race tyre that
wears pretty quickly.

So the logic is as follows.

Given that,
1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.

Quoted message said:

Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at the
front would balance the performance benefits of each and would retire at
a similar time.

Any comments?
--

You have seen the light...hallelujah ;-) or put the new one in front
and move the front tyre to the back.

Actually that's what I used to do, so no news to me.

My specific question here is somewhat different, one where one
deliberately select and pair a more wear resistant tyre for the rear and
a higher TPI tyre with poorer wear for the front, aiming to equalize the
usage time for the pair.
--

Why bother to equalize the wear for the front and the rear tire. Wear
out the rear and replace it. Wear out the front and replace it. I don't
even bother to put the new one in front. Puncture resistance and
comfort are much more important for me to choose a different tire for
the rear. Therefor I put a wider tire in the back. They last longer too,
but that is a bonus.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Barry said:

Quoted message said:

It's unlikely that a rider can actually feel the 0.85 mph difference
between the best tire's 23.43 mph and the worst tire's 22.58 mph while
he's putting out 300 watts--he needs a digital speedometer to measure
that kind of difference.

That difference is actually larger than I would have expected. I agree that a
rider probably can't feel the difference in speed, but if pushing hard on a
fast group ride, it might make the difference between keeping up and getting
dropped.

Dear Barry,

The speed difference could be even larger if worse tires were
tested--imagine rolling along on a pair of knobby MTB tires.

Of course, the question in this thread was about replacing only one
tire, not both, so the speed improvement would be only about half as
much.

On a fast group ride, it probably wouldn't make much difference at
all, for the same reason that 90% of the field in the Tour de France
finishes together on ordinary days--drafting is the overwhelming
factor in group rides on the flats.

In a time trial or a climbing day, where drafting is eliminated, the
difference in RR between various 700c tires can make a difference to
racers, but it's still a small difference.

Where it would make a huge difference is if a rider is just barely
able to keep up by drafting a group of much better riders. If his
tires held him back just a little bit more and he couldn't draft, the
peloton would leave him dramatically behind--but the tires would be
exposing the fact that he really needs to find a slower group, where
he can take a turn at the front. (Recreational groups, of course, will
often welcome riders who struggle to keep up because the better riders
like the social side of things, hope to help the slower riders
improve, or enjoy gloating over--er, never mind.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Where it would make a huge difference is if a rider is just barely
able to keep up by drafting a group of much better riders. If his
tires held him back just a little bit more and he couldn't draft, the
peloton would leave him dramatically behind--but the tires would be
exposing the fact that he really needs to find a slower group, where
he can take a turn at the front.

This is exactly the situation I had in mind. I'm one of the weaker riders in
my usual group, and if I'm having a bad day and the fast guys really push it,
I'll struggle to keep up. I almost never drop, but an extra 0.8 mph might
save me on the tough days, and allow me to pull longer on the average days.
There don't seem to be enough riders around here to make an A- group, so
unless I want to take it easy, I have to suck it up and ride with the big boys
(and girls).

Quoted message said:

Artoi who? said:

Quoted message said:

> I am wondering what people think of running different tyres front
> and back on a road bike? Recently the rear of my pair of Vittoria
> Open Corsa Evo Cx has worn thin and suffered a number of flats yet
> the front one is still in pretty good shape. So I am wondering what
> if I paired the Vittoria with a more puncture and wear resistant
> Conti GP4000 at the rear? Note here that the Vittoria is considered
> to be a race tyre that wears pretty quickly.
> So the logic is as follows.
> Given that,
> 1) Rear tyre's wear rate is greater.
> 2) Front tyre is more important for bike control.
> 3) High TPI tyres gives a "better" ride.
> Then a more durable tyre for the rear with a better riding tyre at
> the front would balance the performance benefits of each and would
> retire at a similar time.
> Any comments?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rear-flats.html

Quoted message said:

Yes, that should have been the 4th point. Tendency for rear
punctures, thereby needing a tougher tyre at the rear.

If there were such a tire, and there isn't, Carl Fogel would have long
ago switched to them instead of patching tubes. The tire you seek you
don't want because it doesn't roll worth a damn. Besides, my front
tires (the same as the ones on the rear) wear out nearly as fast as
rear tires from braking and cornering. In any case, when switched to
the rear they wear out in a few hundred miles.

Actually, if you believe the marketing, there are a set of tires that
address the OP's "needs:"

http://tinyurl.com/64cvo

"On the rear wheel, GP Force guarantees superior power transmission.
23mm wide, consisting of an ultra fine nylon fabric and protected from
punctures by a double breaker belt under the tread, it embodies the
strength of Continental racing tires.

The GP Force is constructed for high mileage performance. Traction and
cornering behaviour remainS stable for thousands of racing kilometres.

GP Force 3 plies/ 330 tpi + Nylon Double Breaker"

I mean come on, who is going to doubt Contiental?.....