greg lemond theory

gym.gravity said:

MagillaGorilla said:

Quoted message said:

On Nov 30, 2:10 am, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>On Nov 29, 5:59 pm, "xzzy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>>K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

>>>Dumbass

Quoted message said:

>>>and further

Quoted message said:

>>>Marion Jones,

Quoted message said:

>>> Virenque, Festina, . . .

Quoted message said:

>>> the tour of france for removing from the results, racers who admit to
>>>racing drugged, but not removing france's racers convicted of racing the tof
>>>drugged

Quoted message said:

>>> the tour of france for changing the results of a drug test in order
>>>remove from the results, Floyd Landis, because an American cyclist had won
>>>their country's race for the 8th year in a row.

Quoted message said:

>>Dumbasses -

Quoted message said:

>>LemonD (and OJ Simpson) stand out from the rest because all those
>>examples you all give, while being excellent specimens of sporting
>>disgrace, all sullied their reputations with actions performed
>>*during* their career.

Quoted message said:

>>LemonD (and OJ) are unique in that they had exceptionally stellar
>>careers, then blackened their reputations with jackassian behavior
>>well after they had retired.

Quoted message said:

>>I'm sure there are other examples of this phenomenon, but I can't, at
>>the moment, think of others who have done it as publicly.

Quoted message said:

>>Any other examples? Buehler?

Quoted message said:

>>thanks,

Quoted message said:

>>K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

>I use to think that too until I listened to the phone call LeMond
>surreptitiously recorded between him and Lance's Oaklay agent Stephanie
>McIlvain where McIlvain clearly indicated she heard Lance admit to using
> drugs in that hospital room. She has no motive to lie about her bread
>and butter client.

Quoted message said:

>She also implicated Hincapie in being a big-time doper and said his baby
>would probably turn out deformed from all the drugs he did. It was
>pretty funny stuff.

Quoted message said:

>Prior to hearing that phone call, LeMond came across as a jealous
>bagpipe. After listening to it, LeMond comes across as a one-man
>Woodward & Bernstein show.

Quoted message said:

Lemond is a jealous bagpipe who is lucky he didn't dope when he could
be caught-- can't ride in the Giro, wins the Tour in the same year?

Quoted message said:

Give us a break.

Quoted message said:

If the guy next to you can dope with little-to-no fear of being
caught, the fault is with the rule makers.

Quoted message said:

"Cleansing Sport for corporate sponsorship". Go Enron! --D-y

LeMond did in fact ride in the Giro when he won the Tour in his
coomeback year of 1989. If you recall, he got like 2nd in the Giro time
trial, but up until that time was having a miserable Giro, most likely
because he was a bit overweight and underraced.

EPO wasn't even in use back then, so what drugs was he doing?

Also, even if LeMond were jealous, that doesn't nullify the content of
the phone call with McIlvain.

You sound like you're just [censored] because Floyd got caught.

Thanks,

Magilla- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

hey, talkin' literally, b vitamins and iron means b vitamins and
iron. what about not so literally, and more primitive than epo.

Still no responses from greg or "anyone else" in my email.

It's just supposition that will never be proven, so what's the point of
this guessing game?

Magilla

MagillaGorilla said:

gym.gravity said:

Vagilla, buddy:

Quoted message said:

Also, the fix for anemia is actually iron injections. EPO wouldn't
have
even worked that quickly (it takes over a week for EPO to work), so
we
can rule out EPO injection for the Giro time trial performance.

Quoted message said:

Iron injections are going to work that fast? was his crit documented
or just his hemoglobin?

Quoted message said:

My theory is still holding.

You don't even know what LeMond's hemoglobin or iron levels were (and
neither does he), so your premise that he was anemic is little more than
a guess.

Why would you put stock into a self-diagnosis by LeMond - a guy who
claimed he had to quit because of some bizarre blood disease that we all
know he didn't have.

Years later, he claims the real reason he couldn't keep up was because
everyone was using EPO, thereby invalidating the "symptoms" for his
so-called mitochondrial blood disease.

So, no, your theory means nothing. For all we know, LeMond was just
tired or had low blood sugar.

Magilla

my theory involves his coaches telling him he was iron deficiency
anemic, telling him they were injecting him with "a complex of iron
and b vitamin" and injecting him with something not quite "a complex
of iron and b vitamin" but very strictly similar, wrapped up in a
ribbon of protein. after all, isn't his disease becasue his immune
system has broken tollerance towards some antigen in his muscles or
nerves going to muscles?

MagillaGorilla said:

gym.gravity said:

On Nov 30, 12:31 pm, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On Nov 30, 2:10 am, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>On Nov 29, 5:59 pm, "xzzy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>Dumbass

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>and further

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>Marion Jones,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>> Virenque, Festina, . . .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>> the tour of france for removing from the results, racers who admit to
>>>>racing drugged, but not removing france's racers convicted of racing the tof
>>>>drugged

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>> the tour of france for changing the results of a drug test in order
>>>>remove from the results, Floyd Landis, because an American cyclist had won
>>>>their country's race for the 8th year in a row.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>Dumbasses -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>LemonD (and OJ Simpson) stand out from the rest because all those
>>>examples you all give, while being excellent specimens of sporting
>>>disgrace, all sullied their reputations with actions performed
>>>*during* their career.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>LemonD (and OJ) are unique in that they had exceptionally stellar
>>>careers, then blackened their reputations with jackassian behavior
>>>well after they had retired.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>I'm sure there are other examples of this phenomenon, but I can't, at
>>>the moment, think of others who have done it as publicly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>Any other examples? Buehler?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>thanks,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>I use to think that too until I listened to the phone call LeMond
>>surreptitiously recorded between him and Lance's Oaklay agent Stephanie
>>McIlvain where McIlvain clearly indicated she heard Lance admit to using
>> drugs in that hospital room. She has no motive to lie about her bread
>>and butter client.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>She also implicated Hincapie in being a big-time doper and said his baby
>>would probably turn out deformed from all the drugs he did. It was
>>pretty funny stuff.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Prior to hearing that phone call, LeMond came across as a jealous
>>bagpipe. After listening to it, LeMond comes across as a one-man
>>Woodward & Bernstein show.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Lemond is a jealous bagpipe who is lucky he didn't dope when he could
>be caught-- can't ride in the Giro, wins the Tour in the same year?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Give us a break.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>If the guy next to you can dope with little-to-no fear of being
>caught, the fault is with the rule makers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>"Cleansing Sport for corporate sponsorship". Go Enron! --D-y

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

LeMond did in fact ride in the Giro when he won the Tour in his
coomeback year of 1989. If you recall, he got like 2nd in the Giro time
trial, but up until that time was having a miserable Giro, most likely
because he was a bit overweight and underraced.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

EPO wasn't even in use back then, so what drugs was he doing?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, even if LeMond were jealous, that doesn't nullify the content of
the phone call with McIlvain.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You sound like you're just [censored] because Floyd got caught.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Magilla- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

hey, talkin' literally, b vitamins and iron means b vitamins and
iron. what about not so literally, and more primitive than epo.

Quoted message said:

Still no responses from greg or "anyone else" in my email.

It's just supposition that will never be proven, so what's the point of
this guessing game?

Magilla- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

what if he now carries an epigenetic fingerprint (in his immune
system) of this injection? similar to the way a vaccine works?

MagillaGorilla said:

It's just supposition that will never be proven, so what's the point of
this guessing game?

Magilla

Tyler was a load of fun, wasn't it?

On Dec 1, 9:47 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted post said:

Does it bother you maybe just a little that LNDD's bad
Landis test was backed up by some fine and thorough ass-covering retro-
testing? When "problems with chain of control" were found IRT Landis'
specimens?

That argument was not one presented by Landis' defense team

It is interesting that from the very first Landis has been saying that
he NEVER used dope. It is also interesting that Eddy Merckx was
winning and winning and winning and was threatened to stay away from
certain races or suffer the consequences. He went anyway and somehow
was found to be using drugs. He has maintained that it was a setup.

Ain't it also funny that the French were outraged that another
American had won their race? Especially someone like Landis who is so
perfectly straight forward and honest. If he HAD been doping he would
have said so.

MagillaGorilla said:

And people in the industry are usually so shallow and spineless they do
whatever Lance wants.

After all - Lance has so much power - wait a minute - what power was
that again?

MagillaGorilla said:

LemonD succeeded in recording a phone call with Stephanie McIlvain, one
of Lance's closest business agents. She has NO REASON to lie about him.

Yet she admitted she heard LA say in that hospital room he took banned
substances for years.

Then by all means let's see your references pertaining to that.

Quoted message said:

This is huge circumstantial evidence. It would send most people to jail
if it were the only evidence in a criminal trial.

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about do you?

In article
<[email hidden]
egroups.com>,

Quoted post said:

My point with that was "what can you believe"? The web is very
tangled, you know? Some people believe jailhouse "confessions".

I don't even believe jailhouse pleas of innocence.

--
Michael Press

gym.gravity said:

MagillaGorilla said:

gym.gravity said:

Vagilla, buddy:

Quoted message said:

Also, the fix for anemia is actually iron injections. EPO wouldn't
have
even worked that quickly (it takes over a week for EPO to work), so
we
can rule out EPO injection for the Giro time trial performance.

Quoted message said:

Iron injections are going to work that fast? was his crit documented
or just his hemoglobin?

Quoted message said:

My theory is still holding.

You don't even know what LeMond's hemoglobin or iron levels were (and
neither does he), so your premise that he was anemic is little more than
a guess.

Why would you put stock into a self-diagnosis by LeMond - a guy who
claimed he had to quit because of some bizarre blood disease that we all
know he didn't have.

Years later, he claims the real reason he couldn't keep up was because
everyone was using EPO, thereby invalidating the "symptoms" for his
so-called mitochondrial blood disease.

So, no, your theory means nothing. For all we know, LeMond was just
tired or had low blood sugar.

Magilla

my theory involves his coaches telling him he was iron deficiency
anemic, telling him they were injecting him with "a complex of iron
and b vitamin" and injecting him with something not quite "a complex
of iron and b vitamin" but very strictly similar, wrapped up in a
ribbon of protein. after all, isn't his disease becasue his immune
system has broken tollerance towards some antigen in his muscles or
nerves going to muscles?

Dude,

So let me get this straight - you are saying Rene Wenzel owns a rubber
Otto Jacome mask?

Magilla

Kurgan Gringioni said:

With the exception of OJ Simpson, I don't know that any athlete can
hold a candle to LemonD when it comes to being unable to retire
gracefully.

I agree. Greg L. must be very jealous of Kurgan's graceful
retirement.

BTW, did anyone mention Pete Rose? Jose Cancesco?

Bret

MagillaGorilla said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

On Dec 2, 7:17 am, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On Dec 1, 8:34 pm, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Miguel Indurain....Delgado, Mayo, Heras...what a disgrace. The fact
>>that Indurain doesn't speak badly of his convicted Spanish boys says a
>>lot about what Indurain thinks about doping.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>LemonD is definitely jealous of Lance. There's little doubt about that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Oh yeah. That's what I don't like about his little crusade. He claims
>he's doing it for racing, but that's a load of crock. The extreme era
>of EPO abuse came before LANCE won a grand tour.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>According to your metric, Lance is more of a tool for going after people
>>who he feels slighted him - like trying to get Franke Andreu fired from
>>his Tour gig on OLN for asking an "unauthorized question."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>LANCE isn't exactly a saint himself. I agree, he's extremely
>vindictive. But, IMO, his behavior pales in comparison to LemonD's.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>One of the reasons I dislike LemonD so much is I used to really look
>up to that guy. He's been incredibly disappointing. What a small
>little person he is. LANCE? I never had any illusions about him. He
>always seemed to be an arrogant [censored], so when he turned out to be one,
>it was par for the course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Obviously, your mileage may vary.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>thanks,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-----------

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

LemonD's behavior is actually less egregious.

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

Quoted message said:

LemonD should've just stayed out of it all. But he was too jealous.

Quoted message said:

In the end, what good did he do? Nothing. Everything would've happened
the same w/out him. He only succeeded in bringing down his own image.

Quoted message said:

thanks,

Quoted message said:

K. Gringioni.

LemonD succeeded in recording a phone call with Stephanie McIlvain, one
of Lance's closest business agents. She has NO REASON to lie about him.

Yet she admitted she heard LA say in that hospital room he took banned
substances for years.

This is huge circumstantial evidence. It would send most people to jail
if it were the only evidence in a criminal trial.

<snip>

Dumbass -

That is a bs statement.

That sort of thing would never be allowed in court, therefore it
wouldn't put anyone in jail. A wiretap is not admissable unless the
prosecution has a court order authorizing the wiretap. The exception
is for terrorist cases under the Patriot Act.

I'll post links backing this up if you like.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

Ain't it also funny that the French were outraged that another
American had won their race?

dumbass,

maybe the french prime minister phoned the LNDD to frame landis ?

the ASO runs a business and it doesn't help their business when a
rider in the tour tests positive, especially if it's the winner and
the official title remains in limbo for over a year.

Quoted message said:

Especially someone like Landis who is so
perfectly straight forward and honest. If he HAD been doping he would
have said so.

that was you said about jeanson.

Quoted message said:

MagillaGorilla said:

And people in the industry are usually so shallow and spineless they do
whatever Lance wants.

After all - Lance has so much power - wait a minute - what power was
that again?

The power to keep sloping top tube racing bikes off the market of
course!

We all know how much he hates those.

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

LemonD succeeded in recording a phone call with Stephanie McIlvain, one
of Lance's closest business agents. She has NO REASON to lie about him.

Yet she admitted she heard LA say in that hospital room he took banned
substances for years.

This is huge circumstantial evidence. It would send most people to jail
if it were the only evidence in a criminal trial.

<snip>

Dumbass -

That is a bs statement.

That sort of thing would never be allowed in court, therefore it
wouldn't put anyone in jail. A wiretap is not admissable unless the
prosecution has a court order authorizing the wiretap. The exception
is for terrorist cases under the Patriot Act.

I'll post links backing this up if you like.

Please do. Are you certain that "that sort of thing would never be allowed
in court" applies to both criminal _and_ civil courts?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Especially someone like Landis who is so
perfectly straight forward and honest. If he HAD been doping he would
have said so.

that was you said about jeanson.

Funny how the last B sample tested outside of France couldn't duplicate
their findings. And also funny that they decided to "retest" it in the
French lab so that they could find the B test positive.

Seems like the sort of science that appeals to you and your kind.

Quoted message said:

MagillaGorilla said:

LemonD succeeded in recording a phone call with Stephanie McIlvain, one
of Lance's closest business agents. She has NO REASON to lie about him.

Yet she admitted she heard LA say in that hospital room he took banned
substances for years.

Then by all means let's see your references pertaining to that.

Quoted message said:

This is huge circumstantial evidence. It would send most people to jail
if it were the only evidence in a criminal trial.

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about do you?

The tape recorded phone call is what it is. What are you talking about?

Magilla

Carl Sundquist said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

LemonD succeeded in recording a phone call with Stephanie McIlvain, one
of Lance's closest business agents. She has NO REASON to lie about
him.

Yet she admitted she heard LA say in that hospital room he took banned
substances for years.

This is huge circumstantial evidence. It would send most people to jail
if it were the only evidence in a criminal trial.

<snip>

Dumbass -

That is a bs statement.

That sort of thing would never be allowed in court, therefore it
wouldn't put anyone in jail. A wiretap is not admissable unless the
prosecution has a court order authorizing the wiretap. The exception
is for terrorist cases under the Patriot Act.

I'll post links backing this up if you like.

Please do. Are you certain that "that sort of thing would never be
allowed in court" applies to both criminal _and_ civil courts?

There is generally is no 'test' for whether a tape recorded phone call
would be admissible in any court other than a relevancy test.

Magilla

gym.gravity said:

MagillaGorilla said:

gym.gravity said:

On Nov 30, 12:31 pm, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>On Nov 30, 2:10 am, MagillaGorilla <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>>Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>>>On Nov 29, 5:59 pm, "xzzy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

>>>>>Dumbass

Quoted message said:

>>>>>and further

Quoted message said:

>>>>>Marion Jones,

Quoted message said:

>>>>>Virenque, Festina, . . .

Quoted message said:

>>>>> the tour of france for removing from the results, racers who admit to
>>>>>racing drugged, but not removing france's racers convicted of racing the tof
>>>>>drugged

Quoted message said:

>>>>> the tour of france for changing the results of a drug test in order
>>>>>remove from the results, Floyd Landis, because an American cyclist had won
>>>>>their country's race for the 8th year in a row.

Quoted message said:

>>>>Dumbasses -

Quoted message said:

>>>>LemonD (and OJ Simpson) stand out from the rest because all those
>>>>examples you all give, while being excellent specimens of sporting
>>>>disgrace, all sullied their reputations with actions performed
>>>>*during* their career.

Quoted message said:

>>>>LemonD (and OJ) are unique in that they had exceptionally stellar
>>>>careers, then blackened their reputations with jackassian behavior
>>>>well after they had retired.

Quoted message said:

>>>>I'm sure there are other examples of this phenomenon, but I can't, at
>>>>the moment, think of others who have done it as publicly.

Quoted message said:

>>>>Any other examples? Buehler?

Quoted message said:

>>>>thanks,

Quoted message said:

>>>>K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

>>>I use to think that too until I listened to the phone call LeMond
>>>surreptitiously recorded between him and Lance's Oaklay agent Stephanie
>>>McIlvain where McIlvain clearly indicated she heard Lance admit to using
>>>drugs in that hospital room. She has no motive to lie about her bread
>>>and butter client.

Quoted message said:

>>>She also implicated Hincapie in being a big-time doper and said his baby
>>>would probably turn out deformed from all the drugs he did. It was
>>>pretty funny stuff.

Quoted message said:

>>>Prior to hearing that phone call, LeMond came across as a jealous
>>>bagpipe. After listening to it, LeMond comes across as a one-man
>>>Woodward & Bernstein show.

Quoted message said:

>>Lemond is a jealous bagpipe who is lucky he didn't dope when he could
>>be caught-- can't ride in the Giro, wins the Tour in the same year?

Quoted message said:

>>Give us a break.

Quoted message said:

>>If the guy next to you can dope with little-to-no fear of being
>>caught, the fault is with the rule makers.

Quoted message said:

>>"Cleansing Sport for corporate sponsorship". Go Enron! --D-y

Quoted message said:

>LeMond did in fact ride in the Giro when he won the Tour in his
>coomeback year of 1989. If you recall, he got like 2nd in the Giro time
>trial, but up until that time was having a miserable Giro, most likely
>because he was a bit overweight and underraced.

Quoted message said:

>EPO wasn't even in use back then, so what drugs was he doing?

Quoted message said:

>Also, even if LeMond were jealous, that doesn't nullify the content of
>the phone call with McIlvain.

Quoted message said:

>You sound like you're just [censored] because Floyd got caught.

Quoted message said:

>Thanks,

Quoted message said:

>Magilla- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

>- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

hey, talkin' literally, b vitamins and iron means b vitamins and
iron. what about not so literally, and more primitive than epo.

Quoted message said:

Still no responses from greg or "anyone else" in my email.

It's just supposition that will never be proven, so what's the point of
this guessing game?

Magilla- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

what if he now carries an epigenetic fingerprint (in his immune
system) of this injection? similar to the way a vaccine works?

You could never prove WHEN he got the injection.

Magilla

gym.gravity said:

MagillaGorilla said:

It's just supposition that will never be proven, so what's the point of
this guessing game?

Magilla

Tyler was a load of fun, wasn't it?

I'm not so sure I understand the relevancy to Tylenol's case.

Magilla

Quoted message said:

On Dec 1, 9:47 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted post said:

Does it bother you maybe just a little that LNDD's bad
Landis test was backed up by some fine and thorough ass-covering retro-
testing? When "problems with chain of control" were found IRT Landis'
specimens?

That argument was not one presented by Landis' defense team

It is interesting that from the very first Landis has been saying that
he NEVER used dope. It is also interesting that Eddy Merckx was
winning and winning and winning and was threatened to stay away from
certain races or suffer the consequences. He went anyway and somehow
was found to be using drugs. He has maintained that it was a setup.

Ain't it also funny that the French were outraged that another
American had won their race? Especially someone like Landis who is so
perfectly straight forward and honest. If he HAD been doping he would
have said so.

According to your conspiracy theory, the French lab would have framed
Lance years ago if that's actually how they operated.

Think of all the Tour de France urine samples they had from Lance over
those 7 years to sabotage! And then when Floyd comes along, and wins
the race with panache, they decide to frame him? PUH-LEEZ

Can't you see these Euro riders are dirty as hell?

Magilla