Carbon's impact durability

If you crash, both CF and Alu frames may get damaged. The real issue is that it's far less expensive to replace an Alu frame. Can you afford it? 😉

sogood said:

If you crash, both CF and Alu frames may get damaged. The real issue is that it's far less expensive to replace an Alu frame. Can you afford it? 😉

The reason I'm asking is that I can (and would be happy to) afford it if I'm likely to replace it once every 2-3 years, but not every year.

How often would an every weekend racer expect to crash hard enough to necessitate replacing a carbon frame?

I used to ride a giant composite frame before my current CAAD 9, which I crashed once, pretty hard - it was okay, but there was a little bit of damage (no cracks, etc though).

I know that this isn't possible to answer exactly, but I was hoping some folks with more years on carbon frames could weigh in here...

I've crashed my aluminium road bike twice this year. The first time I broke the carbon seatpost. The second time I broke the carbon seatpost and the carbon fork. The frame is unblemished. Are you feeling lucky?

I crashed a Giant TCR comp last spring. Not a real bad crash. Guy in front of me went down, I hit him and endoed flying 15 feet landing on my wrist and shoulder. Handlebar turned hard left and hit my top tube. Though all was cool until 3 weeks later when I noticed two one inch cracks. Might have dented al AL frame, who knows. Loved the frame and did replace it, though I switched to an cheaper aluminum frame for crits saving the CF bike for road races.

I race a 'cheap' carbon frame (Douglas Matrix). If It gets trashed I'm not out much. It's a reasonable racing platform in terms of weight and stiffness.

My rule has always been to race what I could replace in a hurry. Take a bling piece of carbon out with the boys? Not for me.

As far as how often you'll stack it up hard enough to demolish a frame...there's a lot of variables there. Ask yourself the usual questions: Do you race a lot of crits with guys that couldn't get around a corner in a slide if their lives depended on it? Mix it up with kamikazi road warriors that would kill their mother for a $6 medal? Are you a cat 5 riding near the rear or a cat 2 able to stay up front? Expecting uncle Ed to croak and leave you a sizeable inheritance this month?

I've been racing my Trek carbon frame for 2 full seasons of racing. The first year I didn't crash at all as it was my first year of racing and wasn't racing the bike very "hard". I took it pretty easy because I wasn't in contention to win, but this last year I crashed about 5 times. The frame did awesome and did not crack or break. It varies on how bad the crashes are obviously. I know people who have raced their new carbon bikes for the first time and crashed and broken them. Maybe I'm lucky, who knows? I think it depends on whether you are racing mostly crits or road races too. You are more likely to wreck in a crit because of multiple turns per lap. Road races are usually more of a straight shot and wrecks only happen because of bad pack riders.

artemidorus said:

I've crashed my aluminium road bike twice this year. The first time I broke the carbon seatpost. The second time I broke the carbon seatpost and the carbon fork. The frame is unblemished. Are you feeling lucky?

Out of curiosity artemidorus did you replace the CF fork after the first crash? If not what did you do to ensure the integrity of the fork?

I had a crash and stuffed my front wheel but the fork seems ok (i.e. no cracks on the clear finish and no apparent cracks etc in the carbon itself) but still a little worried of a sudden failure.

Ainsie said:

Out of curiosity artemidorus did you replace the CF fork after the first crash? If not what did you do to ensure the integrity of the fork?

I had a crash and stuffed my front wheel but the fork seems ok (i.e. no cracks on the clear finish and no apparent cracks etc in the carbon itself) but still a little worried of a sudden failure.

No, I didn't replace the fork after the first crash. I checked it by eye, and the LBS doing the insurance quotation checked it by eye, and after finding no faults, noone worried further. The first crash didn't involve any obvious impact to the front - I was hit from the side.

Are there any bicycle manufacturers that are sympathetic to average racers that crack their frame in a crit or a road race, meaning have a great crash replacment policy? And is the risk of a crash another good reason to join a team that has some relationship to a manufacturer? And Artemidorus mentioned insurance. I guess your homeowner's policy generally covers your bike (in the USA), but probably doesn't cover your bike for racing or crashes if the insurance company is smart, although I have heard of plenty of people collecting from homeowners policy after running their bike in to the garage opening while it is on top of their cars. Can you get coverage for racing? Does USCF offer anything?

chainstay said:

Are there any bicycle manufacturers that are sympathetic to average racers that crack their frame in a crit or a road race, meaning have a great crash replacment policy? And is the risk of a crash another good reason to join a team that has some relationship to a manufacturer? And Artemidorus mentioned insurance. I guess your homeowner's policy generally covers your bike (in the USA), but probably doesn't cover your bike for racing or crashes if the insurance company is smart, although I have heard of plenty of people collecting from homeowners policy after running their bike in to the garage opening while it is on top of their cars. Can you get coverage for racing? Does USCF offer anything?

I'd be really interested in this type of insurance if it's possible...

I was talking about the insurance of the car that hit me. I've no insurance that covers crashes with uninsured others or solo accidents.

chainstay said:

Are there any bicycle manufacturers that are sympathetic to average racers that crack their frame in a crit or a road race, meaning have a great crash replacment policy? And is the risk of a crash another good reason to join a team that has some relationship to a manufacturer?

Most mfg warranties are null and void is the bike is used to race. That being said if you have a good realtionship with a shop you can get a break sometimes. When I crashed my Giant, even though it was a used bike I was able to get a replacement frame (actually a newer model) because of said relationship. Most times they can chaulk it up to manufacturer's defect if they like you.

capwater said:

Most mfg warranties are null and void is the bike is used to race. That being said if you have a good realtionship with a shop you can get a break sometimes. When I crashed my Giant, even though it was a used bike I was able to get a replacement frame (actually a newer model) because of said relationship. Most times they can chaulk it up to manufacturer's defect if they like you.

Not sure which warranties you're talking about, but the roadbike warranties I've read from the major brands don't exclude racing. That wouldn't make sense, as a "roadrace" bike is obviously sold to race....that's the reason people buy the product. The warranties do exclude crashing or abuse of course, as well as normal wear and tear, or fatigue failures.

A sample warranty from Trek:

trekbikes.comlimited warrantyOpen ↗

No exclusion from racing that I read in that one. Only manufacturing defects are covered though. I've only had non-defect related crash damage (non-racing) covered by insurance.

Back in the 90s I used to race every weekend. I laid my Kestrel 200sc down a few times nothing major all was fine.

One bad Saturday I was in a full on sprint for the finish had to be 30+ MPH a guy came over on me as his foot came off the pedal. I went end over end a couple of times. I could not work for 3 weeks and almost had my spleen removed. I expected the frame to be in bits and pieces. Hoods levers shot, bars badly scraped, road rash from my elbow through my arm pit all down my left side to my hip. To this day I have a scar on my side where I was run over by another cyclist. I still ride the bike today. The frame is perfect.🙂

I think carbon frames are a lot tougher then people give them credit for...at least that is my experience.

CAMPYBOB said:

A sample warranty from Trek:

trekbikes.comlimited warrantyOpen ↗

No exclusion from racing that I read in that one. Only manufacturing defects are covered though. I've only had non-defect related crash damage (non-racing) covered by insurance.

At the bottom of that document it says:

<<Carbon Crash Replacement Policy:

Assessing any damage done to a carbon fiber part requires more experience than is needed to inspect metal parts. If you crash or impact your bike and the force of the impact is absorbed by a carbon part, we strongly encourage you to replace the part, even if there are no indications of damage. If such a crash or impact occurs, Trek offers a crash replacement program for carbon parts, substantially reducing any replacement cost. To take advantage of this program, contact us using the information listed above and ask for the Warranty department.>>

I wonder how much of a discount to retail it is?

rplace13 said:

I think carbon frames are a lot tougher then people give them credit for...at least that is my experience.

That has been my experience too, but I don't have any of the latest generation, super light carbon frames. I wonder if they generally hold up as well? And I don't recall weight limits for certain frames in the past, though there may have been some and I just wasn't aware of it.

There are actually a couple of options that have not been discussed. I believe that Kestrel has a reduced cost program for crash damaged frames. Other manufacturers may as well. Basically, such frames are replaced at cost.

For crashes, you have another option as well. There is an endorsement (typically known as the HO-15) that goes on homeowner's and/or renter's or condo insurance policies. It is also known as a "special form causes of loss for personal property" endorsement.

Basically, these types of property are typically "named perils" (only certain types of losses are covered). Vehicles is one peril and I don't recall it being well defined in most policies. Colliding with another bike and crashing might just apply, as well as (heaven forbid) colliding with a motor vehicle.

With the HO-15 or similar, the form becomes "causes of loss less exclusions"; unless a loss (crashing, etc.) is excluded, then it should be covered. Theoretically you would have coverage if you crashed, hit a tree, etc.

A lot of adjusters and agents don't even know it exists so you may have to push your agent a bit to get them to find it. It may be bundled with a "premium endorsement" or similar, that has a package of desirable coverages. I usually paid about 5% of the total policy for such an endorsement and it was great (and relatively inexpensive) peace of mind.

Now the catch; (1) You will have a deductible (2) It will count as a claim. Add up several and you will likely see your rates go up. You may not even be able to get coverage if your history is bad enough.

Personally, if I were to race crits I would ride inexpensive aluminum frames that are cheap to replace. Chucks Bikes, Ebay, and other places sell very decent frames for as little as a few hundred dollars. (I notice the Leader brand a lot). Bikes Direct also sells very inexpensive full aluminum bikes for amazingly low prices. They go under the names Motobecane, Moser, and others. They seem to get better reviews than you might expect, being noted as the same frame as big names (Fuji, etc.) for about 1/2 the cost.

You can also buy a good condition used frame perhaps, or go with titanium, which is lauded for its durability.