Cadel on Australian drivers

AndrewJ said:

"THERE is nowhere on Earth that Cadel Evans feel less safe on his bike
than here at home."

Quoted message said:

www.theage.com.au today.

Quoted message said:

If you're a believer in Karma, then Australian drivers are headed for
a troublesome future.

Fat chance. Here, driving is a right, not a privilege. And until that
changes, we will continue to have people kill themselves and others while
thinking they have enough right to drive.

Changing laws to protect the innocent and penalise the guilty is really easy
to implement, but doesn't actually do anything useful other than make money
for GovCo and perhaps earn brownie points for politicians.

Changing driver attitude is arguably more effective, but impossible to
implement, so let's not do that.

Australian drivers are not headed for a troublesome future, because nothing
will change. They won't even realise they're killing themselves, because
GovCo has over umpteen years conditioned them to think that speeding alone is
the only one reason that anyone dies on the roads.
And since they don't speed, they will NEVER be responsible for any wrongdoing.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

AndrewJ said:

"THERE is nowhere on Earth that Cadel Evans feel less safe on his bike
than here at home."

www.theage.com.au today.

If you're a believer in Karma, then Australian drivers are headed for
a troublesome future.

Gawd! Haven't you seen the Mad Max trilogy?

BTW, correct url linkie to article:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/evans-laments-dangerous-attitude-on-the-roads/2008/01/06/1199554486502.html

AndrewJ said:

"THERE is nowhere on Earth that Cadel Evans feel less safe on his bike
than here at home."

www.theage.com.au today.

If you're a believer in Karma, then Australian drivers are headed for
a troublesome future.

I saw the article. Doors deliberately opened (including a bus door),
objects thrown, morons waving hammers, umpteen near misses, and being
shot at less than 50 km from where I sit writing this. Tell us about it.
This is why I ride with a rear vision mirror on my glasses, first line
of defence, see the stupid [censored] coming.
By the way, I've also been a licenced driver for 27 years, and see as
many [censored] when on four wheels as on two. The only difference is
vulnerability.
Cheers,
Ray

ray said:

AndrewJ said:

"THERE is nowhere on Earth that Cadel Evans feel less safe on his bike
than here at home."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

www.theage.com.au today.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you're a believer in Karma, then Australian drivers are headed for
a troublesome future.

Quoted message said:

I saw the article. Doors deliberately opened (including a bus door),
objects thrown, morons waving hammers, umpteen near misses, and being
shot at less than 50 km from where I sit writing this. Tell us about
it. This is why I ride with a rear vision mirror on my glasses, first
line of defence, see the stupid [censored] coming. By the way, I've
also been a licenced driver for 27 years, and see as many [censored]
when on four wheels as on two. The only difference is vulnerability.
Cheers, Ray

Two incidents stick in my mind from yesterday and the Amy's ride. One
before, one after.

The second was on the ride back around the bay from the finish to where
I'd parked the car. A massive blast on the horn as an old Ford passed,
four yobs hanging out the window, waving arms and fists like mad and
screaming abuse.

It was the first one that takes the cake though

Heading in to Geelong in the morning; close to eight a.m., increasing
traffic, nearly every car seemed to contain one or two bikes and riders.
As the traffic slowed from an 80 to 70km/hr section and slowed further
for some traffic lights I saw an idiot approach from the rear. Swerving
through the three lanes of traffic he was obviously very important and
on a very urgent mission. As he passed I saw that not only was the
idiot on the phone, steering with one hand and zig-zagging through
traffic, but that the bike was on the rear seat, he was in his lycra and
he was on his way to the start of the ride.... Approaching the lights
he must have received last minute phone instructions as he served from
the right-most lane, across three lanes of traffic, over the start of
the traffic island and made it, tyres screeching, around the left turn
and towards Corio bay.

Adrian

Adrian said:

ray said:

AndrewJ said:

"THERE is nowhere on Earth that Cadel Evans feel less safe on his bike
than here at home."
www.theage.com.au today.
If you're a believer in Karma, then Australian drivers are headed for
a troublesome future.

I saw the article. Doors deliberately opened (including a bus door),
objects thrown, morons waving hammers, umpteen near misses, and being
shot at less than 50 km from where I sit writing this. Tell us about
it. This is why I ride with a rear vision mirror on my glasses, first
line of defence, see the stupid [censored] coming. By the way, I've
also been a licenced driver for 27 years, and see as many [censored]
when on four wheels as on two. The only difference is vulnerability.
Cheers, Ray

Two incidents stick in my mind from yesterday and the Amy's ride. One
before, one after.

The second was on the ride back around the bay from the finish to where
I'd parked the car. A massive blast on the horn as an old Ford passed,
four yobs hanging out the window, waving arms and fists like mad and
screaming abuse.

It was the first one that takes the cake though

Heading in to Geelong in the morning; close to eight a.m., increasing
traffic, nearly every car seemed to contain one or two bikes and riders.
As the traffic slowed from an 80 to 70km/hr section and slowed further
for some traffic lights I saw an idiot approach from the rear. Swerving
through the three lanes of traffic he was obviously very important and
on a very urgent mission. As he passed I saw that not only was the
idiot on the phone, steering with one hand and zig-zagging through
traffic, but that the bike was on the rear seat, he was in his lycra and
he was on his way to the start of the ride.... Approaching the lights
he must have received last minute phone instructions as he served from
the right-most lane, across three lanes of traffic, over the start of
the traffic island and made it, tyres screeching, around the left turn
and towards Corio bay.

Adrian

Ayee. Truly truth is stranger than fiction, especially given the
purpose
of Amy's ride.

I'm afraid this is in support of my position: that cars and bicycles
can't really co-exist and that what we need are high quality roadways
dedicated specifically
to bicycles. I'm in the education business, and I frankly don't think
that
your average yobbo is educable.

Of course then you would find our friend of this posting hassling your
poor low speed average cyclist on said road. But it's amazing the
impact
a stick has in the spokes....

AndrewJ said:

Adrian wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It was the first one that takes the cake though

Heading in to Geelong in the morning; close to eight a.m., increasing
traffic, nearly every car seemed to contain one or two bikes and
riders. As the traffic slowed from an 80 to 70km/hr section and
slowed further for some traffic lights I saw an idiot approach from
the rear. Swerving through the three lanes of traffic he was
obviously very important and on a very urgent mission. As he passed
I saw that not only was the idiot on the phone, steering with one
hand and zig-zagging through traffic, but that the bike was on the
rear seat, he was in his lycra and he was on his way to the start of
the ride.... Approaching the lights he must have received last
minute phone instructions as he served from the right-most lane,
across three lanes of traffic, over the start of the traffic island
and made it, tyres screeching, around the left turn and towards
Corio bay.

Quoted message said:

Ayee. Truly truth is stranger than fiction, especially given the
purpose
of Amy's ride.

I'm afraid this is in support of my position: that cars and bicycles
can't really co-exist and that what we need are high quality roadways
dedicated specifically
to bicycles. I'm in the education business, and I frankly don't think
that
your average yobbo is educable.

I would take a different position from this experience. It seems to me that
this 'cyclist' is too dangerous and stupid to be allowed on the road in a
motor vehicle, and the police should arrest anyone in a car wearing lycra.

Quoted message said:

Of course then you would find our friend of this posting hassling your
poor low speed average cyclist on said road. But it's amazing the
impact
a stick has in the spokes....

I believe that would be assault.

Theo

AndrewJ said:

I'm afraid this is in support of my position: that cars and bicycles
can't really co-exist and that what we need are high quality roadways
dedicated specifically
to bicycles. I'm in the education business, and I frankly don't think
that
your average yobbo is educable.

The balance of the available evidence suggests your position is wrong. For example France has narrower roads, very little in the way of cycling infrastructure and over there ridinig a bicycle is safer than driving a car.

My experience with seperated facilities in and around Melbourne have been overwhelmingly negative compared to the road.

On Jan 8, 8:42 am, EuanB <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

AndrewJ said:

I'm afraid this is in support of my position: that cars and bicycles
can't really co-exist and that what we need are high quality roadways
dedicated specifically
to bicycles. I'm in the education business, and I frankly don't think
that
your average yobbo is educable.

The balance of the available evidence suggests your position is wrong.
For example France has narrower roads, very little in the way of cycling
infrastructure and over there ridinig a bicycle is safer than driving a
car.

My experience with seperated facilities in and around Melbourne have
been overwhelmingly negative compared to the road.

--
EuanB

My vote is with Euan on this one. I just don't buy the "can't share"
guff. Take it to it's conclusion and it means:
1) the road rules don't and can't apply (crapola)
2) cyclists can't share paths with peds (crapola).

Assert your right, join the many, the bogans are getting the idea and
at least in Brisbane, becoming more understanding of bikes. If any
road changes are needed, it's not to take bikes off the road, it's to
give us more of it.

Donga

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:42:23 +1100

EuanB said:

The balance of the available evidence suggests your position is wrong.
For example France has narrower roads, very little in the way of cycling
infrastructure and over there ridinig a bicycle is safer than driving a
car.

It does seem to be possible to change attitudes. By education and
personal knowledge.

A survey in Scotland showed that those who rode a motorcyle were very
significantly less likely to be involved in a car/motorcycle crash
while driving a car, but their close family was also.

The more bicycles on the roads, mixing with the traffic, the more
drivers who will have a friend or relative who rides. The more
bicycles on the road, the more people who get used to bicycles being
on the road.

I always get the "it is too dangerous" from non-cyclists (and
non-motorcyclists) when I say I use a two wheeler to get to work.
Funny how it is always "other people" who are the problem, never
themselves 🙂 But when I ask a few questions, it turns out that these
co-workers are all quite capable of seeing bad drivers a long way off,
and they don't really have many incidents with them. THey parrot the
"roads are dangerous" line because that's what they have been told.
Doesn't really jell with their own experience day to day, but they
know it is so, so don't really examine their own experience.

Mainly because they have no reason to. They accept the common wisdom
because they have no reason not to. THey save their mental energy for
something more important to them.

Every time someone comes up with the "too dangerous" line, then talk
to them about how many cars they saw today doing the *right* thing.
And if they saw one doing the wrong thing, how far away did they spot
that vehicle and how dangerous was it to them.

Once people look at their own daily experience (rather than
remembering the one incident that really impressed them *because* it
was rare) they change their understanding about how dangerous it is.

The more who realise it isn't dangerous, the more who will ride.

Zebee

EuanB said:

AndrewJ said:

I'm afraid this is in support of my position: that cars and bicycles
can't really co-exist and that what we need are high quality roadways
dedicated specifically
to bicycles. I'm in the education business, and I frankly don't think
that
your average yobbo is educable.

The balance of the available evidence suggests your position is wrong.
For example France has narrower roads, very little in the way of cycling
infrastructure and over there ridinig a bicycle is safer than driving a
car.

My experience with seperated facilities in and around Melbourne have
been overwhelmingly negative compared to the road.

Concur. Old Australian philosophy: Get Off The Road Ya Mug. This is
precisely what idiot motorists, politicians and many road engineers want
us to do. Stand your ground, which is legally and morally ON the road.
Cheers,
Ray

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:02:10 +1100

ray said:

Concur. Old Australian philosophy: Get Off The Road Ya Mug. This is
precisely what idiot motorists, politicians and many road engineers want
us to do. Stand your ground, which is legally and morally ON the road.

what I don't understand is why on one kind of shared path the slower
more vulnerable but more manouverable user (cyclists) must be second
best to the faster more dangerous user (cares) but on another kind,
the slower and more vulnerable but more manouverable user (pedestrians)
have right of way over the faster user (cyclists).

Zebee

AndrewJ said:

I'm afraid this is in support of my position: that cars and bicycles
can't really co-exist and that what we need are high quality roadways
dedicated specifically
to bicycles.

Fantasyland

Quoted message said:

I'm in the education business, and I frankly don't think
that
your average yobbo is educable.

They manage to educate them in the cities of Europe. Just requires a few
legal changes, and a structure of enforcement.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:02:10 +1100

ray said:

Concur. Old Australian philosophy: Get Off The Road Ya Mug. This is
precisely what idiot motorists, politicians and many road engineers want
us to do. Stand your ground, which is legally and morally ON the road.

what I don't understand is why on one kind of shared path the slower
more vulnerable but more manouverable user (cyclists) must be second
best to the faster more dangerous user (cares) but on another kind,
the slower and more vulnerable but more manouverable user (pedestrians)
have right of way over the faster user (cyclists).

Zebee

I've used this irony on people arguing against bikes on paths and roads.
It usually goes like this: "bikes should keep to the extreme left
to avoid getting in the way of cars". Later it'll be "bikes need to
slow down on shared paths - it is their responsibility to avoid
pedestrians." I then ask the question "is it a coincidence that for
your two preferred modes of transport it is the other users who should
be looking out for you?" Always goes down a treat.

DeF

--
e-mail: d.farrow@your finger.murdoch.edu.au
To reply, you'll have to remove your finger.

Zebee Johnstone said:

what I don't understand is why on one kind of shared path the slower
more vulnerable but more manouverable user (cyclists) must be second
best to the faster more dangerous user (cares) but on another kind,
the slower and more vulnerable but more manouverable user (pedestrians)
have right of way over the faster user (cyclists).

Majority rules

'Everyone' is a pedestrian

'Everyone' is a car driver

Cyclists get shafted - onto the B-team for them! Just behind taxi drivers
and real estate agents 🙂

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

PeteSig said:

Majority rules

'Everyone' is a pedestrian

'Everyone' is a car driver

Cyclists get shafted - onto the B-team for them! Just behind taxi drivers
and real estate agents 🙂

Not unless you reside in Sydney, there's a new pecking order being developed while you wait.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/carsguide/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/a_two_way_street/

You have to marvel at the way this petulant child deeply obsesses over the comments to his story.

John Tserkezis said:

AndrewJ said:

"THERE is nowhere on Earth that Cadel Evans feel less safe on his bike
than here at home."
www.theage.com.au today.
If you're a believer in Karma, then Australian drivers are headed for
a troublesome future.

Fat chance. Here, driving is a right, not a privilege. And until that
changes, we will continue to have people kill themselves and others while
thinking they have enough right to drive.

Changing laws to protect the innocent and penalise the guilty is really easy
to implement, but doesn't actually do anything useful other than make money
for GovCo and perhaps earn brownie points for politicians.

Changing driver attitude is arguably more effective, but impossible to
implement, so let's not do that.

Australian drivers are not headed for a troublesome future, because nothing
will change. They won't even realise they're killing themselves, because
GovCo has over umpteen years conditioned them to think that speeding alone is
the only one reason that anyone dies on the roads.

Their wallets will force them off the road soon enough.
Things *are* changing.

http://www.aboc.com.au/Members/carl/carls-blog/Members/carl/images/CrudeOilPriceTrend.gif

On 2008-01-08, Bleve (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

John Tserkezis said:

Australian drivers are not headed for a troublesome future, because nothing
will change. They won't even realise they're killing themselves, because
GovCo has over umpteen years conditioned them to think that speeding alone is
the only one reason that anyone dies on the roads.

Their wallets will force them off the road soon enough.
Things *are* changing.

http://www.aboc.com.au/Members/carl/carls-blog/Members/carl/images/CrudeOilPriceTrend.gif

I'm a vengeful [censored], laughing at this:

http://business.smh.com.au/double-or-nothing-traders-bet-on-oil-reaching-us200-a-barrel-by-years-end/20080107-1kna.html

I reckon Qantas should charge a staff tax, then they can reduce ticket
prices even further! How 'bout a plane tax? A technician tax?:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/travel/qantas-lifts-fuel-levy-as-oil-prices-hit/2008/01/07/1199554571356.html

--
TimC
Ken Thompson claims that he started developing Unix so he could play
Space War, but the end product shows he was really much more interested
in cheating at Scrabble. --Steve VanDevender

PeteSig said:

Majority rules

'Everyone' is a pedestrian

'Everyone' is a car driver

Really?
Based on bicycle sales verses car sales, the more correct statement is
"Everyone is a bicycle rider".

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 09 Jan 2008 02:00:53 +1100

Terryc said:

PeteSig said:

Majority rules

'Everyone' is a pedestrian

'Everyone' is a car driver

Really?
Based on bicycle sales verses car sales, the more correct statement is
"Everyone is a bicycle rider".

No. "Everyone is a bicycle buyer".

You can't deduce more than that.

Zebee