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Not designed for hitting trees, either

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Cycling Equipment
Published
5 January 2008
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9 January 2008
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  1. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Actually, it's possible the kid and/or the parents thought "Trees? No
    problem. He's got a helmet!"

    Dear Frank,

    Could be.

    Or maybe he'd just seen too many tv shows, movies, and videos filled
    with wildly reckless driving, skiing, flying, bicycling, and
    everything else. You know, the shows where the heroes miraculously
    escape crashes, injuries, and death while always missing innocent
    bystanders.

    I sometimes wonder whether the increasing death toll on the ski slopes
    is just a matter of far more people skiing or if it's a sign of how
    many people confuse carefully staged television stunts with real life.

    I understand your point. ISTM that western society (or at least
    American society) has a severely schizophrenic attitude toward risk.
    On the one hand, we sell and advocate explosive padding on every
    possible interior surface of our cars; we promote helmets for any
    other wheeled device, except perhaps wheelchairs; we convince new
    parents to pad the corner of every hard object and lock the
    refrigerator (http://www.childsafetystore.com/.sc/ms/dd/ee/233/Fridge
    %20Guard%20by%20Parent%20Unit);...

    .... and we advertise our cars by showing them speeding and sliding, we
    promote movies where 40 cars crash during a car chase scene, we sell
    18-year-olds motorcycles capable of 180 mph, we promote sports
    involving inverted aerobatics.

    It is literally a crazy society.

    - Frank Krygowski

  2. John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Quoted message said:

    I sometimes wonder whether the increasing death toll on the ski slopes
    is just a matter of far more people skiing

    Perhaps I missed the information, but is there really an increasing
    death toll skiing? And is the rate of death per hour skied increasing?

    Dear John,

    Good point--I'm not sure.

    As I wander toward senility, the good old days become ever rosier.

    But I don't remember people crashing into trees and being killed on
    Colorado ski slopes in the 1960s and 1970s. Broken legs and ankles
    were news back then.

    I think that with better bindings, the leg injury rates dropped, but I
    could be wrong about that.

    My impression that skiers crashing into trees and killing themselves
    is a recent phenomenon might be only an illusion. If the rate of such
    accidents is say only 1 per 10 million skier-days, there would
    probably be no accidents to notice back in a ten-year period in the
    early days of Colorado skiing when there were only 500,000 skier-days
    per year.

    Thirty years later, with far more resorts, snow-making, and people
    wealthy enough to spend time sliding down mountains, the same 1 fatal
    tree-hit per 10 million skier-days might yield half a dozen deaths per
    year.

    So far, I can't find any figures going back to the 1960s and 1970s.

    This pdf is interesting. The long-winded legal point seems to be that
    one skier was going so fast and so recklessly that he was airborne
    when his skis hit another skier in the head and killed him, but the
    court didn't think that this reckless:

    "The decision below acknowledged that the Defendant-Respondent
    (“Hall”) was skiing recklessly, too fast for conditions, on an a slope
    open to the public, and that Hall’s speed was so great as to inflict
    on the victim (“Cobb”) fatal injuries, as if Cobb had suffered a high
    speed car accident. The record below contained testimony from which a
    jury could conclude that Hall was skiing recklessly, at a high speed,
    sitting back, directly down the fall line, bouncing off of moguls,
    becoming airborne, and colliding into Cobb, probably with Hall’s skis
    striking Cobb in the side of the head, killing him."

    The decison:

    "The Court does not find that a person of ordinary prudence and
    caution would infer, in the absence of other evidence and under the
    circumstances of this case, a substantial risk of death in the event
    of collision, from the fact that Defendant was skiing too fast for
    conditions and out of control. (Order Affirming County Court Judgment,
    1/13/99)

    http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/nathanhall/amicusskibrief.pdf

    If you don't like the way I ski, don't let my skis hit you in the
    head!

    The ski industry was protesting that not holding the killer
    responsible was bad for skiing.

    I'll keep looking, but so far I can't even find a reference to a
    Colorado skier killing himself by hitting a tree in the 1960s and
    1970s. Again, there may just not have been enough skiers for this to
    happen.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  3. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If a death sentence were 'what you get' for reckless skiing, there
    would be thousands of deaths each year at Breckenridge alone. This kid
    was out of control but also, I think it's safe to say, horribly
    unlucky. People also hit trees all the time and come away with minor
    injury or none at all. Would you say they are not getting what they
    deserve, which is death?

    Quoted message said:

    And didn't you spend your Colorado youth riding dirtbikes?

    Quoted message said:

    Robert

    Dear Robert,

    I'd say that "tearing down the slope too fast" and skiing headfirst
    into a tree isn't unlucky--it's reckless, dangerous, and likely to
    kill you.

    You're assuming, with your relentless 'those damn kids' attitude

    Dear Robert,

    Keep fighting with your imagination.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  4. Quoted message said:


    You're assuming, with your relentless 'those damn kids' attitude, that
    this particular kid was skiing in a deliberately reckless fashion,
    which may have been the case. He may also have been 'tearing down the
    slope too fast' because he was a beginner skier who got a little over
    his head and lost control. It happens all the time, in skiing and
    other pursuits in which part of the purpose, even for many highly
    experienced experts, is to ride near the edge of control.

    It occurred to me when reading this thread that something similar
    happened to me when I was about this kid's age. I hit a tree while
    cross-country skiing down a moderate hill. It happened because I had
    no idea what I was doing, and controlling oneself on cross country
    skies is difficult. Lucky for me that justice did not prevail that day
    and I escaped without injury.

    Interestingly I hit a tree and cut myself severely the first time I
    went cross country skiing, also down a pretty moderate hill.

    Recently one of the cross country skiing magazines had an article
    about rollerskiing (similar to inline skating with ski poles). The
    writer was saying that anytime one does that they are moving fast past
    immovable objects and should wear a helmet. I was tempted to ask if
    the writer does that when moving on snow past trees, but then realized
    that that is probably coming some day. Sigh.

  5. On Jan 8, 4:57 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You're assuming, with your relentless 'those damn kids' attitude, that
    this particular kid was skiing in a deliberately reckless fashion,
    which may have been the case. He may also have been 'tearing down the
    slope too fast' because he was a beginner skier who got a little over
    his head and lost control. It happens all the time, in skiing and
    other pursuits in which part of the purpose, even for many highly
    experienced experts, is to ride near the edge of control.

    Quoted message said:

    It occurred to me when reading this thread that something similar
    happened to me when I was about this kid's age. I hit a tree while
    cross-country skiing down a moderate hill. It happened because I had
    no idea what I was doing, and controlling oneself on cross country
    skies is difficult. Lucky for me that justice did not prevail that day
    and I escaped without injury.

    Interestingly I hit a tree and cut myself severely the first time I
    went cross country skiing, also down a pretty moderate hill.

    You deserved it. Just kidding.

    I have also hit trees a few times while mtn biking over the years just
    beyond the edge of control. I didn't go beyond my ability exactly on
    purpose, it's just that this is something which sometimes happens (to
    lesser individuals) when we're out riding trails, pushing our limits
    and having fun. One encounter about 15 years ago took a nice divit out
    of my scalp (yes I was in fact wearing a bicycle helmet, the typical
    examples of which, it sometimes becomes painfully obvious, have holes
    in them) and another encounter this summer, with a horizontal tree,
    totalled a reliable old frame but thankfully left me unscathed. I
    definitely got off lucky on that one. Unlike some 11-year-old kid, I
    certainly knew better.

    I also collided with a moto once on a blind curve of a Colorado
    singletrack. It was so windy that I couldn't hear him on the other
    side of the mountain. It wasn't Carl though. Carl has never been out
    of control while riding his motorcycle.

    Robert

  6. aka Robert ??? said:

    ...
    I also collided with a moto once on a blind curve of a Colorado
    singletrack. It was so windy that I couldn't hear him on the other
    side of the mountain. It wasn't Carl though. Carl has never been out
    of control while riding his motorcycle.

    "Dear Carl" never makes an error.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth

  7. On Jan 8, 9:51 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] aka Robert ??? wrote:

    Carl has never been out

    Quoted message said:

    of control while riding his motorcycle.

    "Dear Carl" never makes an error.

    Y'know, guys, I hate to point this out, but some people really are
    better at the things they do.

    - Frank Krygowski

  8. aka Frank Krygowski said:

    On Jan 8, 9:51 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] aka Robert ??? wrote:

    Carl has never been out

    Quoted message said:

    of control while riding his motorcycle.


    "Dear Carl" never makes an error.

    Y'know, guys, I hate to point this out, but some people really are
    better at the things they do.

    Being insufferable on Usenet when they drop their false veneer?

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth

  9. Quoted message said:

    Y'know, guys, I hate to point this out, but some people really are
    better at the things they do.

    And some are actually born with perfect motorcycle trials abilities
    already installed.

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