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The Kloden case...Bruynel preparing something ?...

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Road Cycling
Published
5 January 2008
Last activity
12 January 2008
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Keith
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  1. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/01262007/news/nationalnews/fashion_passion_sextortion_nationalnews_dareh_gregorian_and_bill_hoffmann.htm

    Your taste in reading material never ceases to amaze me.

    What? The NY Post is far and away my favourite NY-based publication.

    Because, of Course, the Atlantic isn't based there,

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
    Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

  2. Ryan Cousineau said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/01262007/news/nationalnews/fashion_passion_sextortion_nationalnews_dareh_gregorian_and_bill_hoffmann.htm


    Your taste in reading material never ceases to amaze me.

    What? The NY Post is far and away my favourite NY-based publication.

    Because, of Course, the Atlantic isn't based there,


    For my money, Harpers is the best NY-based publication. But these days I
    prefer The Walrus.

  3. Quoted message said:

    The ASO has become quite wealthy as an organization from
    dopers riding in the Tour.

    I still can't buy that logic. The TdF, or any other major sporting event for
    that matter, thrives not because athletes are stronger than before (faster,
    bigger, whatever) but because there's drama involved. Spectacle. Blood and
    Circuses. I'm not convinced that doping, or a lack of it, makes much
    difference that way (since doping products are available to anyone).

    With or without doping, racing (and other sporting endeavors ) are going to
    (usually) be won by someone who has something else going for him or her
    beyond just the doping. That's not to say that those not doping aren't at a
    disadvantage, but unless you believe that doping is only relevant to a very
    small number of people, it's not likely to be the only factor that
    determines the outcome (because many of the losers will have doped as well).

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    "Bob Schwartz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The ASO has to much to lose in letting a bunch of dopers ride in
    the TDF.

    Here in the US, the main reason baseball was so slow in
    bringing the hammer down on steroid use was... the owners
    were making too much money on the guys that were juiced.

    In the Olympics, the reason dope testing was established
    as a separate agency was because the national federations
    consistently refused to act counter to their financial
    interests in enforcing doping regulations.

    The ASO has become quite wealthy as an organization from
    dopers riding in the Tour.

    You're not really thinking this through, are you?

    Bob Schwartz

    PS And just how do you know that sponsorship is dropping,
    in aggregate?

  4. On Jan 8, 11:29 am, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The ASO has to much to lose in letting a bunch of dopers ride in
    the TDF.

    Here in the US, the main reason baseball was so slow in
    bringing the hammer down on steroid use was... the owners
    were making too much money on the guys that were juiced.

    In the Olympics, the reason dope testing was established
    as a separate agency was because the national federations
    consistently refused to act counter to their financial
    interests in enforcing doping regulations.

    The ASO has become quite wealthy as an organization from
    dopers riding in the Tour.

    You're not really thinking this through, are you?

    Bob Schwartz

    PS And just how do you know that sponsorship is dropping,
    in aggregate?

    Oh please, there is plenty of sponsors that have dropped their
    sponsorship due to doping. Coca Cola, T-Mobile and many corporate
    sponsors are reluctant to sponsor a team. Let's not forget that
    Discovery was having problems locating a new .spon"Rock Racing on
    slippery slope with sponsors" (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?
    id=features/2008/rock_racing_bikes08 ).

  5. Mike Jacoubowsky said:
    Quoted message said:

    The ASO has become quite wealthy as an organization from
    dopers riding in the Tour.

    I still can't buy that logic. The TdF, or any other major sporting event for
    that matter, thrives not because athletes are stronger than before (faster,
    bigger, whatever) but because there's drama involved. Spectacle. Blood and
    Circuses. I'm not convinced that doping, or a lack of it, makes much
    difference that way (since doping products are available to anyone).

    With or without doping, racing (and other sporting endeavors ) are going to
    (usually) be won by someone who has something else going for him or her
    beyond just the doping. That's not to say that those not doping aren't at a
    disadvantage, but unless you believe that doping is only relevant to a very
    small number of people, it's not likely to be the only factor that
    determines the outcome (because many of the losers will have doped as well).

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


    Excellent points, I think this was true until EPO arrived though,
    before that the B guys couldn't beat the A guys even by doping, when
    EPO arrived that changed. I'd say the biggest casualty of EPO is
    Ullrich, if if hadn"t been invented he would likely have won many a
    TDF, he was just the stronger rider out there like Merckx was or
    Hinault.

    Conversely the biggest gainer (think multi-miilionaire) is Armstrong
    the dope. I can still remember my disbelief in 1999 when he won the
    prologue (ok, a fluke), then the ITT (hum...) and then Sestrières (no
    way...), my 20 years of TdF "history" went down the drain that
    day...still a sucker for it though.

  6. Keith said:

    the B guys couldn't beat the A guys even by doping, when
    EPO arrived that changed.

    They could with a lot of uppers, but that stuff was easily caught and
    also didn't make for a long career.

  7. Keith said:

    I'd say the biggest casualty of EPO is
    Ullrich, if if hadn"t been invented he would likely have won many a
    TDF, he was just the stronger rider out there like Merckx was or
    Hinault.

    Almost everyone on Ullrich's 1996 and 1997 team (2nd and 1st in the
    tour) have confessed to using EPO, so there is no direct evidence
    against ullrich i wouldn't put money on him having been clean.

    most of the guys he beat in 1997 were also implicated in subsequent
    years (virenque, dufaux, pantani).

  8. On Jan 10, 7:16 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Keith said:

    the B guys couldn't beat the A guys even by doping, when
    EPO arrived that changed.

    They could with a lot of uppers, but that stuff was easily caught and
    also didn't make for a long career.

    dumbass,

    uppers affect your sense of fatigue, but can't boost a person's
    aerobic capacity. on the other hand there was (and still is)
    autologous blood doping.

  9. Quoted message said:

    On Jan 8, 11:29 am, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    PS And just how do you know that sponsorship is dropping,
    in aggregate?

    Oh please, there is plenty of sponsors that have dropped their
    sponsorship due to doping. Coca Cola, T-Mobile and many corporate
    sponsors are reluctant to sponsor a team. Let's not forget that
    Discovery was having problems locating a new .spon"Rock Racing on
    slippery slope with sponsors" (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?
    id=features/2008/rock_racing_bikes08 ).

    Dumbass,

    So you really don't know that aggregate sponsorship is dropping.
    You just don't want to admit it. I mean, Eddy got popped three
    times for dope. Molteni dropped out and hasn't been back. The
    connection is clear, right?

    Och couldn't land a sponsor after Motorola stopped. Sponsors
    come, sponsors go.

    How can I frame this in a way your small brain can grasp?
    Consider the state of the sport now, compared to when the Festina
    scandal hit the fan. Has the sport expanded since then? Is there
    professional racing in places where it didn't used to exist? Are
    there more teams and riders making a go of it in the US?

    If you were to show up at Alpe d'Huez this year, how many days
    ahead of the Tour would you have to be there in order to find a
    spot for your camper van? Is that more or fewer than the late
    1990s when Festina should have made the role of dope in the
    sport clear, even to people such as yourself?

    Doping is a huge problem for individual riders. But the sport is
    doing just fine.

    Bob Schwartz

  10. On Jan 10, 6:29 am, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Jan 8, 11:29 am, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    PS And just how do you know that sponsorship is dropping,
    in aggregate?

    Quoted message said:

    Oh please, there is plenty of sponsors that have dropped their
    sponsorship due to doping. Coca Cola, T-Mobile and many corporate
    sponsors are reluctant to sponsor a team. Let's not forget that
    Discovery was having problems locating a new .spon"Rock Racing on
    slippery slope with sponsors" (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?
    id=features/2008/rock_racing_bikes08 ).

    Sorry to say, but I think you are denying the reality of racing
    today. There is ample incidents of sponsors who are dropping off and
    or reluctant to sponsor teams because of the current doping problems.
    As for Merckx I only recall him being found positive once, but that is
    before my time. The difference today is that we are seeing to many
    riders who are testing positive. This cycle doping stories is hurting
    it's image.

    Quoted message said:


    Dumbass,

    So you really don't know that aggregate sponsorship is dropping.
    You just don't want to admit it. I mean, Eddy got popped three
    times for dope. Molteni dropped out and hasn't been back. The
    connection is clear, right?

    Och couldn't land a sponsor after Motorola stopped. Sponsors
    come, sponsors go.

    How can I frame this in a way your small brain can grasp?
    Consider the state of the sport now, compared to when the Festina
    scandal hit the fan. Has the sport expanded since then? Is there
    professional racing in places where it didn't used to exist? Are
    there more teams and riders making a go of it in the US?

    If you were to show up at Alpe d'Huez this year, how many days
    ahead of the Tour would you have to be there in order to find a
    spot for your camper van? Is that more or fewer than the late
    1990s when Festina should have made the role of dope in the
    sport clear, even to people such as yourself?

    Doping is a huge problem for individual riders. But the sport is
    doing just fine.

    Bob Schwartz

  11. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Almost everyone on Ullrich's 1996 and 1997 team (2nd and 1st in the
    tour) have confessed to using EPO, so there is no direct evidence
    against ullrich i wouldn't put money on him having been clean.

    most of the guys he beat in 1997 were also implicated in subsequent
    years (virenque, dufaux, pantani).

    You do seem to be missing the point don't you? If there were no drugs then
    Ullrich's NATURAL superior riding physique would have won him the tours.
    There's absolutely no way that Pantani could have gotten anywhere near
    Ullrich without drugs.

  12. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Oh please, there is plenty of sponsors that have dropped their
    sponsorship due to doping. Coca Cola, T-Mobile and many corporate
    sponsors are reluctant to sponsor a team. Let's not forget that
    Discovery was having problems locating a new .spon"Rock Racing on
    slippery slope with sponsors" (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?
    id=features/2008/rock_racing_bikes08 ).

    These companies enter into sponsorship to reach their advertising to a
    certain segment of the population and then withdraw and use it somewhere
    else for another segment. These companies would leave drugs or no drugs.

  13. Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    It can be said that drugs helps a riders performance, but I doubt
    there is enough evidence to show that doping will help enough to
    ensure a win.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Almost everyone on Ullrich's 1996 and 1997 team (2nd and 1st in the
    tour) have confessed to using EPO, so there is no direct evidence
    against ullrich i wouldn't put money on him having been clean.

    Quoted message said:

    most of the guys he beat in 1997 were also implicated in subsequent
    years (virenque, dufaux, pantani).

    You do seem to be missing the point don't you? If there were no drugs then
    Ullrich's NATURAL superior riding physique would have won him the tours.
    There's absolutely no way that Pantani could have gotten anywhere near
    Ullrich without drugs.

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Almost everyone on Ullrich's 1996 and 1997 team (2nd and 1st in the
    tour) have confessed to using EPO, so there is no direct evidence
    against ullrich i wouldn't put money on him having been clean.

    most of the guys he beat in 1997 were also implicated in subsequent
    years (virenque, dufaux, pantani).

    You do seem to be missing the point don't you? If there were no drugs then
    Ullrich's NATURAL superior riding physique would have won him the tours.
    There's absolutely no way that Pantani could have gotten anywhere near
    Ullrich without drugs.

    Was not Ullrich a beneficiary of a systematic, effective,
    state subsidized doping program?

    --
    Michael Press

  15. In article
    <[email hidden]
    egroups.com>,

    Quoted post said:

    On Jan 8, 11:29 am, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The ASO has to much to lose in letting a bunch of dopers ride in
    the TDF.

    Here in the US, the main reason baseball was so slow in
    bringing the hammer down on steroid use was... the owners
    were making too much money on the guys that were juiced.

    In the Olympics, the reason dope testing was established
    as a separate agency was because the national federations
    consistently refused to act counter to their financial
    interests in enforcing doping regulations.

    The ASO has become quite wealthy as an organization from
    dopers riding in the Tour.

    You're not really thinking this through, are you?

    Bob Schwartz

    PS And just how do you know that sponsorship is dropping,
    in aggregate?

    Oh please, there is plenty of sponsors that have dropped their
    sponsorship due to doping. Coca Cola, T-Mobile and many corporate
    sponsors are reluctant to sponsor a team. Let's not forget that
    Discovery was having problems locating a new .spon"Rock Racing on
    slippery slope with sponsors" (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?
    id=features/2008/rock_racing_bikes08 ).

    Tailwind Sports could not honestly promise to deliver
    good, fair racing. Not because of pandemic doping, but
    because the cycling governing bodies cannot keep
    doping revelations from becoming the whole story.
    The big sponsors do not have grown ups in charge of
    bicycling, so they go elsewhere for grown up entertainment
    to carry their logos.

    --
    Michael Press

  16. "Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Was not Ullrich a beneficiary of a systematic, effective,
    state subsidized doping program?

    Do you suppose they just grabbed some guy off of the streets for that
    program?

  17. On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:47:13 -0800, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.

    com said:

    "Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Was not Ullrich a beneficiary of a systematic, effective,
    state subsidized doping program?

    Do you suppose they just grabbed some guy off of the streets for that
    program?

    hehe, good one !

  18. On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:44:15 -0800, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.

    com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Almost everyone on Ullrich's 1996 and 1997 team (2nd and 1st in the
    tour) have confessed to using EPO, so there is no direct evidence
    against ullrich i wouldn't put money on him having been clean.

    most of the guys he beat in 1997 were also implicated in subsequent
    years (virenque, dufaux, pantani).

    You do seem to be missing the point don't you? If there were no drugs then
    Ullrich's NATURAL superior riding physique would have won him the tours.
    There's absolutely no way that Pantani could have gotten anywhere near
    Ullrich without drugs.

    Right, in a world without drugs, I think Ullrich would have thrashed
    the competition in ITTs so badly they would have never recovered,
    including LA.

  19. Dans le message de
    news:[email hidden],
    Michael Press <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Almost everyone on Ullrich's 1996 and 1997 team (2nd and 1st in the
    tour) have confessed to using EPO, so there is no direct evidence
    against ullrich i wouldn't put money on him having been clean.

    most of the guys he beat in 1997 were also implicated in subsequent
    years (virenque, dufaux, pantani).

    You do seem to be missing the point don't you? If there were no
    drugs then Ullrich's NATURAL superior riding physique would have won
    him the tours. There's absolutely no way that Pantani could have
    gotten anywhere near Ullrich without drugs.

    Was not Ullrich a beneficiary of a systematic, effective,
    state subsidized doping program?

    No!

  20. "Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Was not Ullrich a beneficiary of a systematic, effective,
    state subsidized doping program?

    What about his fellow grey jerseyed buddies Zabel and Jens Voigt?

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