Can any welder fix a busted frame?

"spokes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My frame broke. One of the chainstays just snapped clean thru', right by
the dropout. Is this fixable? Easily? If it is fixable, does it need a
specialist, or can my friendly neighbourhood welder do it? (I'm not sure
what the tubing is, but I think it's pretty high end stuff - 653/753,
something along those lines...does that make a difference?) Many thanks
for any advice.

It all depends on the exact location and the cause of the break. If the
tubing has rusted way then a replacement chainstay might be in order - you
might even have to have them repalaced as a pair.. It might be cheaper to
consider geting a replacement frame if that is the case as your frame will
also need a respray.

I'm not an expert but I suspect that the repair process involves brazing
which is different from welding. If you have a decent local bike shop
nearby I'd have them inspect the break and have them arrange a repair.

I was lucky enough to be close to Bill Nickson's in Lancashire when my rear
drop out fractured while I was doing a LEJOG ride. My bike was back on the
road within an hour of the fracture occurring. Lucky or what?

spokes said:

My frame broke. One of the chainstays just snapped clean thru', right by
the dropout. Is this fixable? Easily? If it is fixable, does it need a
specialist, or can my friendly neighbourhood welder do it? (I'm not sure
what the tubing is, but I think it's pretty high end stuff - 653/753,
something along those lines...does that make a difference?) Many thanks
for any advice.

You definitely don't want to take that to the local welder. Good quality
steel frame tubes are incredibly thin walled, and also are heat treated in
particular ways for strength, so that overheating can damage the tubes. Get
it to a good frame builder, who will have the appropriate technique for
your frame (probably brazing).

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Das Internet is nicht fuer gefingerclicken und giffengrabben... Ist
nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das mausklicken sichtseeren
keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und
watchen das cursorblinken. -- quoted from the jargon file

In article <[email hidden]>, spokes
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

My frame broke. One of the chainstays just snapped clean thru', right by the
dropout. Is this fixable? Easily? If it is fixable, does it need a
specialist, or can my friendly neighbourhood welder do it? (I'm not sure
what the tubing is, but I think it's pretty high end stuff - 653/753,
something along those lines...does that make a difference?) Many thanks for
any advice.

If there's room to get a close-fitting steel sleeve inside then anyone
reasonably skilled with brazing kit can patch it up as long as they
realise it's important not to overheat it, but better to have the
chainstay replaced by a frame builder. I'd be quite concerned about
what caused the failure in the first place, though, as there might be
more to follow and it could be time to scrap the frame.

spokes said:

My frame broke. One of the chainstays just snapped clean thru', right by the
dropout. Is this fixable? Easily? If it is fixable, does it need a
specialist, or can my friendly neighbourhood welder do it? (I'm not sure
what the tubing is, but I think it's pretty high end stuff - 653/753,
something along those lines...does that make a difference?) Many thanks for
any advice.

If it is, as you say, high end stuff, the frame should have material
identification transfers on it. Do I take it the bike is more than
second-hand, and is nolonger on its first paint job? I don't believe
that, as a tube set, 653 had chainstays and seatstays of it's own. I
seem to remember that they were carried over from the 753 tube set
anyway. This is, as the others have said, a specialist repairer job.
Look for Mercian, Bob Jackson or the like - they will be able to
identify your frame material and treat it accordingly. The word
'expensive' comes to mind.

631, 853 and 953 are air-hardening steals, and are less prone to heat
damage. Builders of 753 frames had to be specially certified. 753
frames were also silver soldered, not brazed, due to the material's
delicate nature.

David Lloyd

'The word 'expensive' comes to mind.'

Hmmm. Yes, I kind of thought it might. Many thanks for all responses. I
suspect the bottom line may well be time for bed zebedee. I'm not sure what
caused the failure - plenty of hard riding, some over cobbles and a fair bit
of nipping up & down kerbstones (they've been digging up the roads a lot
hereabouts), but there was no single 'incident'...the frame just suddenly
started making a disconcerting clunky noise and feeling a bit odd....took me
three or four miles to suss out the cause.

The reason for the lack of decals and the like is that it is indeed a 2nd
hand ebay job, whose only mark of any kind (no head badge, no transfers, not
even a serial number that I could find) was an old sticker reading 'Gatorz',
which turns out to be an American 'yoof' sunglasses manufacturer, who as it
turns out sponsor/compete in 'yooful' sports like cyling, motocross and
go-karting. My guess is it was once a team bike. Top end componentry,
super-light, very quick. But yes, quite old. And, as far as I can see,
unidentifiable.

I think I may, with great regret, have to write it off. Start looking on
ebay for a good frame, then just transfer everything.

Many thanks again - much appreciated.

David Lloyd said:

spokes said:

My frame broke. One of the chainstays just snapped clean thru', right by the
dropout. Is this fixable? Easily? If it is fixable, does it need a
specialist, or can my friendly neighbourhood welder do it? (I'm not sure
what the tubing is, but I think it's pretty high end stuff - 653/753,
something along those lines...does that make a difference?) Many thanks for
any advice.

If it is, as you say, high end stuff, the frame should have material
identification transfers on it. Do I take it the bike is more than
second-hand, and is nolonger on its first paint job? I don't believe
that, as a tube set, 653 had chainstays and seatstays of it's own. I
seem to remember that they were carried over from the 753 tube set
anyway. This is, as the others have said, a specialist repairer job.
Look for Mercian, Bob Jackson or the like - they will be able to
identify your frame material and treat it accordingly. The word
'expensive' comes to mind.

631, 853 and 953 are air-hardening steals, and are less prone to heat
damage. Builders of 753 frames had to be specially certified. 753
frames were also silver soldered, not brazed, due to the material's
delicate nature.

Isn't the idea of 631 that you TIG-weld it rather than braze it?

I associated the possibility of TIG-welding with air-hardening, but I
don't know about 853 and 953, whether such frames are usually brazed or
welded.

Even if it is TIG welded, it doesn't follow that it's something the
friendly neighbourhood welder can put back together. It's not like
patching a car's floor or making a gate.

In article <6dfb8cbe-fd68-46b2-a884-d8c4b1478c47
@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, David Lloyd
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Builders of 753 frames had to be specially certified. 753
frames were also silver soldered, not brazed, due to the material's
delicate nature.

A 753-certified frame builder told me you could probably get away with
brazing the stuff if you were careful - the test for certification isn't
very stringent, but Reynolds are cautious with their recommendations.
The back end of the chainstays is relatively thick so it heats evenly,
but narrow so it doesn't need much heat/brass to make a joint. The
first job I was given when I was training as a frame builder was brazing
dropouts in chainstays (but not 753!).

Ben C said:

David Lloyd said:

spokes said:

My frame broke. One of the chainstays just snapped clean thru', right by the
dropout. Is this fixable? Easily? If it is fixable, does it need a
specialist, or can my friendly neighbourhood welder do it? (I'm not sure
what the tubing is, but I think it's pretty high end stuff - 653/753,
something along those lines...does that make a difference?) Many thanksfor
any advice.

Quoted message said:

If it is, as you say, high end stuff, the frame should have material
identification transfers on it. Do I take it the bike is more than
second-hand, and is nolonger on its first paint job?  I don't believe
that, as a tube set, 653 had chainstays and seatstays of it's own. I
seem to remember that they were carried over from the 753 tube set
anyway. This is, as the others have said, a specialist repairer job.
Look for Mercian, Bob Jackson or the like - they will be able to
identify your frame material and treat it accordingly. The word
'expensive' comes to mind.

Quoted message said:

631, 853 and 953 are air-hardening steals, and are less prone to heat
damage. Builders of 753 frames had to be specially certified. 753
frames were also silver soldered, not brazed, due to the material's
delicate nature.

Isn't the idea of 631 that you TIG-weld it rather than braze it?

I associated the possibility of TIG-welding with air-hardening, but I
don't know about 853 and 953, whether such frames are usually brazed or
welded.

Even if it is TIG welded, it doesn't follow that it's something the
friendly neighbourhood welder can put back together. It's not like
patching a car's floor or making a gate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't necessary to TIG-weld 631, in fact, as Frank Clements of
Sirius would have it, brazing creates a greater heat-affected zone
than TIG-welding. This means that a brazed 631 frame would be stronger
than a TIG-welded one, as 631 gets stronger through being heated. That
is what he told me when I collected my Sirius 631 cyclocross bike from
him. TIG-welding is required with aluminium and titanium frames
(unless they are bonded of course).

David Lloyd

Rob Morley said:

In article <6dfb8cbe-fd68-46b2-a884-d8c4b1478c47
@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, David Lloyd
[email hidden] says...> Builders of 753 frames had to be specially certified. 753

Quoted message said:

frames were also silver soldered, not brazed, due to the material's
delicate nature.

A 753-certified frame builder told me you could probably get away with
brazing the stuff if you were careful - the test for certification isn't
very stringent, but Reynolds are cautious with their recommendations.
The back end of the chainstays is relatively thick so it heats evenly,
but narrow so it doesn't need much heat/brass to make a joint.  The
first job I was given when I was training as a frame builder was brazing
dropouts in chainstays (but not 753!).

A frame builder's 'careful' and a car welder's 'careful' are not the
same ;-)

David Lloyd

In article <403911b0-d30d-4564-abcc-a4e223371b77
@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, David Lloyd
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

It isn't necessary to TIG-weld 631, in fact, as Frank Clements of
Sirius would have it, brazing creates a greater heat-affected zone
than TIG-welding. This means that a brazed 631 frame would be stronger
than a TIG-welded one, as 631 gets stronger through being heated. That
is what he told me when I collected my Sirius 631 cyclocross bike from
him.

Would that be the same Frank Clements who had a load of 531 frames TIG-
welded in some far-east sweatshop? Of course they failed in use after a
short time, but Frank was always more interested in turning a fast buck
than doing things properly.

spokes said:

I think I may, with great regret, have to write it off. Start looking on
ebay for a good frame, then just transfer everything.

Around five years ago a chainstay snapped on my general runaround bike
(Peugeot racer from 1990). I took it to both an expert welding shop and
an LBS[1] who both chose not to weld it, referring to the weakening the
heating & cooling would cause. Before scrapping it I thought I'd let a
local welder have a go - I could not loose more than a tenner or so to
him. I still use the bike.

That said, I am not sure your 653/753 tubing will behave similarly.

Of course you could argue that my frame has lost much of its strength,
and that I risk getting seriously injured in an accident when the frame
snaps again when I am filtering through rush hour traffic. But if you
are happy with getting a bike off eBay, you really do not know what is
hidden under the respray paint . . . ?

[1] well they sent it off to their frame builder
--
T Sandvik // to send e-mail, remove vehicle

In article <[email hidden]>, ts
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

spokes said:

I think I may, with great regret, have to write it off. Start looking on
ebay for a good frame, then just transfer everything.

Around five years ago a chainstay snapped on my general runaround bike
(Peugeot racer from 1990). I took it to both an expert welding shop and
an LBS[1] who both chose not to weld it, referring to the weakening the
heating & cooling would cause. Before scrapping it I thought I'd let a
local welder have a go - I could not loose more than a tenner or so to
him. I still use the bike.

That said, I am not sure your 653/753 tubing will behave similarly.

Of course you could argue that my frame has lost much of its strength,
and that I risk getting seriously injured in an accident when the frame
snaps again when I am filtering through rush hour traffic. But if you
are happy with getting a bike off eBay, you really do not know what is
hidden under the respray paint . . . ?

[1] well they sent it off to their frame builder

A lot of those Peugeots were made of pretty soft tubing - Carbolite
something-or-other? It probably hasn't suffered much from welding.

Now I've had a chance for a proper look in daylight, I've discovered, first,
that the break is not in a section of tube, but in the flat solid metal
section that has the slot for the wheel axle in it, and second, that by the
looks of the rust in the break, it's been fractured for quite some
time...which probably accounts for the lack of any dramatic sudden 'crack' -
I guess it just finally gave out, after hanging by a thread for years.

Does the fact that the break isn't actually in a section of tube, but in a
piece of flat solid metal make welding/brazing (by a non frame-builder -
there are none within miles of me) an option? Does the extent of rusting
suggest that the thing's probably past its sell-by anyway, and should be
given a dignified funeral?

Thanks all.

spokes said:

Now I've had a chance for a proper look in daylight, I've discovered, first,
that the break is not in a section of tube, but in the flat solid metal
section that has the slot for the wheel axle in it, and second, that by the
looks of the rust in the break, it's been fractured for quite some
time...which probably accounts for the lack of any dramatic sudden 'crack' -
I guess it just finally gave out, after hanging by a thread for years.

Does the fact that the break isn't actually in a section of tube, but in a
piece of flat solid metal make welding/brazing (by a non frame-builder -
there are none within miles of me) an option? Does the extent of rusting
suggest that the thing's probably past its sell-by anyway, and should be
given a dignified funeral?

Thanks all.

If it is far enough away from the brazing zone it's quite doable to have
it TIG welded. You just don't want to weld through the brass of the
brazed joint

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

spokes said:

Now I've had a chance for a proper look in daylight, I've discovered, first,
that the break is not in a section of tube, but in the flat solid metal
section that has the slot for the wheel axle in it, and second, that by the
looks of the rust in the break, it's been fractured for quite some
time...which probably accounts for the lack of any dramatic sudden 'crack' -
I guess it just finally gave out, after hanging by a thread for years.

Does the fact that the break isn't actually in a section of tube, but in a
piece of flat solid metal make welding/brazing (by a non frame-builder -
there are none within miles of me) an option?

I had this bit replaced on my bike for about 15 quid. It was actually
because the dérailleur had folded in to the back wheel and taken the bit
of frame it attaches to with it. Surprisingly this wasn't much more than
it cost to get a new replaceable dropout on my other bike.

Quoted message said:

Does the extent of rusting
suggest that the thing's probably past its sell-by anyway, and should be
given a dignified funeral?

Probably.

Quoted message said:

Thanks all.

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>, ts
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Around five years ago a chainstay snapped on my general runaround bike
(Peugeot racer from 1990). I took it to both an expert welding shop and
an LBS[1] who both chose not to weld it, referring to the weakening the
heating & cooling would cause. Before scrapping it I thought I'd let a
local welder have a go - I could not loose more than a tenner or so to
him. I still use the bike.

A lot of those Peugeots were made of pretty soft tubing - Carbolite
something-or-other?

Yes. "Carbolite 103"

Quoted message said:

It probably hasn't suffered much from welding.

Obviously not enough to snap again.

--
T Sandvik // to send e-mail, remove vehicle

"Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <403911b0-d30d-4564-abcc-a4e223371b77
@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, David Lloyd
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

It isn't necessary to TIG-weld 631, in fact, as Frank Clements of
Sirius would have it, brazing creates a greater heat-affected zone
than TIG-welding. This means that a brazed 631 frame would be stronger
than a TIG-welded one, as 631 gets stronger through being heated. That
is what he told me when I collected my Sirius 631 cyclocross bike from
him.

Would that be the same Frank Clements who had a load of 531 frames TIG-
welded in some far-east sweatshop? Of course they failed in use after a
short time, but Frank was always more interested in turning a fast buck
than doing things properly.

Wouldn't know about that, but Sirius frames were all hand brazed. Sirius
used to be the handbuild arm of Orbit. AFAIK, Orbit had a good reputation.

David Lloyd

In article <[email hidden]>, spokes
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Now I've had a chance for a proper look in daylight, I've discovered, first,
that the break is not in a section of tube, but in the flat solid metal
section that has the slot for the wheel axle in it, and second, that by the
looks of the rust in the break, it's been fractured for quite some
time...which probably accounts for the lack of any dramatic sudden 'crack' -
I guess it just finally gave out, after hanging by a thread for years.

Does the fact that the break isn't actually in a section of tube, but in a
piece of flat solid metal make welding/brazing (by a non frame-builder -
there are none within miles of me) an option? Does the extent of rusting
suggest that the thing's probably past its sell-by anyway, and should be
given a dignified funeral?

Replacing a dropout is a pretty simple job for anyone who's handy with a
brazing torch or brazing hearth. You can get replacement ends from
Ceeway at http://www.framebuilding.com/

In article <[email hidden]>, David
Lloyd
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Sirius frames were all hand brazed. Sirius used to be the handbuild arm
of Orbit. AFAIK, Orbit had a good reputation.

Sirius Cycles, based in Coventry, was Tom Bromwich and a couple of the
framebuilders who had worked at Bromwich Cycles after Tom sold the
business to Jim MacIlwain (remember those nice mountain bike frames in
the 80s?). They then "merged" with Orbit in Dudley, who first used them
for IIRC custom frames and better tandems, then closed the Coventry unit
but continued to use the Sirius name. Orbit had a reputation for cheap
Reynolds-tubed frames. Frank offered me a job there but I didn't fancy
moving to Dudley or learning to build frames the Orbit way, as both
would have been a step back as far as I was concerned.