Indoor Training Acclimation

VARacer said:

I started training with power (PT) about 3 months ago. Coincidentally, I started training seriously about the same time. Due to certain work/family responsibilities, I do almost 100% of my training (7-8 hrs/week) on the trainer.

I have read a lot about how power numbers are higher on the road compared to on a trainer (heat, boredom, etc.). I have even read varying conversion %s for comparing what you "should" be able to do outside given inside power numbers.

Question. Is it possible for the body to get so used to training indoors that there would be no variation in power numbers indoor vs. outdoor? Just my random question for the day.

Any insight is appreciated.

My opinion,as someone that does both, is that there are too many variables to account for to make any kind of accurate guess.
At least under normal conditions and without the aid of sophistcated testing equipment.

I think it's certainly possible but I don't know if it's an acclimation in the direction you desire. In other words, your outdoor power may begin to approach your lower indoor power. If you do the same training, but at a lower power, do you really expect your power to rise or even be maintained?

Squint said:

...If you do the same training, but at a lower power, do you really expect your power to rise or even be maintained?

Well, that's the essence of a push up approach to sweet spot training or exactly what Lydiard recommended for runners. Work a lot at submaximal intensities and increase your power. Yep, it's counterintuitive but there's a lot of evidence that you'll do more than maintain with work below your maximum. Now what that means in terms of indoor/outdoor efforts is tough to predict but if the alternative to indoor training is no training then what choice do you have?

Back to the OP's question. Some folks definitely get used to the indoor trainer and put out power numbers very similar to their outdoor efforts. I was that way last spring with only a few watts between indoor and outdoor rides. This winter I'm still behind my best outdoor power numbers even though I've seen steady indoor improvement. I'll let ya know if I get a sudden boost when I get back outdoors(that's still about 10 weeks away around here). Either way, I can only do what I can do and I'm getting good steady work indoors and can't really get any decent bike training outdoors in the subzero temps and deep snow we have here.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Back to the OP's question. Some folks definitely get used to the indoor trainer and put out power numbers very similar to their outdoor efforts. I was that way last spring with only a few watts between indoor and outdoor rides.

It's not always the case. I have always put out higher numbers indoors than outdoors. 1.5hrs on the turbo's at 310+ is straight forward enough, but anything close to 290np for the same duration outdoors is a killer. I think it will depend a lot on the terrain where you ride: perhaps the constant rolling up-and-downs are responsible. I almost look forward to the icey days when I have an excuse to do my SS work indoors!

daveryanwyoming said:

Well, that's the essence of a push up approach to sweet spot training or exactly what Lydiard recommended for runners. Work a lot at submaximal intensities and increase your power. Yep, it's counterintuitive but there's a lot of evidence that you'll do more than maintain with work below your maximum.

You're assuming you increase volume which isn't the case here.

Squint said:

You're assuming you increase volume which isn't the case here.

Fair 'nuff, but I still expect you'll do more than maintain and again, what's the alternative?

VARacer said:

I started training with power (PT) about 3 months ago. Coincidentally, I started training seriously about the same time. Due to certain work/family responsibilities, I do almost 100% of my training (7-8 hrs/week) on the trainer.

I have read a lot about how power numbers are higher on the road compared to on a trainer (heat, boredom, etc.). I have even read varying conversion %s for comparing what you "should" be able to do outside given inside power numbers.

Question. Is it possible for the body to get so used to training indoors that there would be no variation in power numbers indoor vs. outdoor? Just my random question for the day.

Any insight is appreciated.

i used to think it was impossible too but it isn't.. i struggled to do workout inside anywhere close to outside.. now some of my highest number workouts are inside

1) cooling, cooling, cooling... that's the biggest thing you can do to get close to parity indoor - outdoor numbers as possible... that takes care of about 80-90% of it. basically ride close to an open window... i'm talkin' winter.. i'm talkin' -20C outside with the window open, not all the way but the room needs to be cold.. you just warmup with clothes on (long sleeve shirt) and undress for your workout.. and get an industrial fan... i have two box fans on max, plus a headwind fan attachment on my kietlers

2) increase difference in inertia as much as possible... add a fly wheel,heavy wheel etc... but this is secondary the biggest deal is the cooling with a big bad fan

3) for me anyway... no video.. too distracting... airbud and an ipod.. need to focus...

VARacer said:

Question. Is it possible for the body to get so used to training indoors that there would be no variation in power numbers indoor vs. outdoor? Just my random question for the day.

Every year, I go through a period where I start training more indoors than outdoors and I will be despondent because the power numbers indoors aren't what I am used to. Because of seasonal variations in my power, I can't be 100% sure that the indoor power is seemingly lower simply because it's indoors (and all the possible [but not definite] reasons that may cause it: trainer kinematics, motivation, etc.) However, after a few weeks, I eventually adapt, get into a rhythm of training this way and the power numbers start rising. I will also say that on weeks later in the winter where I have the opportunity to train both indoors and outdoors, there seems to be fairly negligible differences.

All of which is a long way of saying that I do think that it is possible to have indoor and outdoor power correspond closely.

Steve_B said:

Every year, I go through a period where I start training more indoors than outdoors and I will be despondent because the power numbers indoors aren't what I am used to. Because of seasonal variations in my power, I can't be 100% sure that the indoor power is seemingly lower simply because it's indoors (and all the possible [but not definite] reasons that may cause it: trainer kinematics, motivation, etc.) However, after a few weeks, I eventually adapt, get into a rhythm of training this way and the power numbers start rising. I will also say that on weeks later in the winter where I have the opportunity to train both indoors and outdoors, there seems to be fairly negligible differences.

All of which is a long way of saying that I do think that it is possible to have indoor and outdoor power correspond closely.

not adding much here I guess but after several years of several months on the CT, I find that once the duration extends beyond 20-min or so, my power invariably droops indoors.

Now perhaps as I'm not a light/lean guy that makes a diffference. I suspect absolute power levels make a difference as well. When I do something like a mod. tempo ride for an hour or so, I'll not sweat that much. Bump that up into mid-upper L4 and look out!

Steve_B said:

Every year, I go through a period where I start training more indoors than outdoors and I will be despondent because the power numbers indoors aren't what I am used to. Because of seasonal variations in my power, I can't be 100% sure that the indoor power is seemingly lower simply because it's indoors (and all the possible [but not definite] reasons that may cause it: trainer kinematics, motivation, etc.) However, after a few weeks, I eventually adapt, get into a rhythm of training this way and the power numbers start rising. I will also say that on weeks later in the winter where I have the opportunity to train both indoors and outdoors, there seems to be fairly negligible differences.

All of which is a long way of saying that I do think that it is possible to have indoor and outdoor power correspond closely.

but i have found that if you take care of the cooling thing and the inertia thing i actually don't have any adaptation time at all... in fact i can usually pull of higher numbers in late fall inside than i was doing outside.

i'm wondering if there may be a difference though because i use rollers, which mimic outside riding more closely than a stationary trainer might. there is no rolling, side to side movement on a trainer as there is outside and on rollers so it might take a while to aclimatize to the slightly different movements... different muscles being used and firing at slightly different times as experienced on a stationary trainer? this is why i actually perfer rollers (now exclusively use rollers) since they mimic outdoor riding more closely, muscle action is almost exactly like outside, means adapation is likely more applicable and likely more effective to. i'm thinking in the way that say x-country skiing is good but uses slightly differenct muscles in slightly different way so is not as effective as a if you just rode your bike. i find that after riding a stationary trainer for an extended amount of time i need to learn how to ride a bike again, spin is off etc so i just sold my trainer and only ride rollers now.

doctorSpoc said:

but i have found that if you take care of the cooling thing and the inertia thing i actually don't have any adaptation time at all....

I'm convinced that for me (and I'm only speaking for me), it's mostly mental. It's something along the lines of seasonal affective disorder. This December, I had a tough time. I had a fun year, I was not excited by getting into the indoor torture chamber again and I didn't want the year to end. I got through it with a gradual reintroduction to indoor riding and (oddly) as much skate skiing as I could handle. I'm better now and cranking out the watts. 🙂 This emotional pattern is becoming more or less annual.

As for inertia, I have borrowed trainers with higher and lower inertia flywheels and you can sense the difference in how much it takes to spin up and keep it going but it's not like it makes things that much easier to have a higher inertia flywheel, IMO. Riding hard is hard, no matter how you slice it.

doctorSpoc said:

i actually perfer rollers

I'm not going to comment on your claims but if rollers work for you man, go for it.

Steve_B said:

....As for inertia, I have borrowed trainers with higher and lower inertia flywheels and you can sense the difference in how much it takes to spin up and keep it going but it's not like it makes things that much easier to have a higher inertia flywheel, IMO. Riding hard is hard, no matter how you slice it.....

I did an experiment earlier this season. I took an older PT Pro wheel and placed an entire box of stick on wheel balancing weights around the spoke nipples. Basically I created a balanced 13 pound rear wheel. At lower power levels, like during L1/L2 warmups it felt like silk, I could spin it smoothly all day at those power levels on either the CT or KK trainers. But when I started laying down 90-95% L4 efforts that extra inertia didn't make any difference, the wheel spun fine but as you say "Riding hard is hard, no matter how you slice it..."

Anyway, it was an interesting experiment but after about a month I stripped the weights off and sold the wheel to a friend. My power numbers during L4 efforts didn't change when I went back to a standard wheel. Now rollers, that may be different but I don't have a resistance unit for mine and only ride them on easy spin rest days. A friend just picked up a set of e-motion rollers and I'd love to give them a try to see how those feel for hard efforts.

-Dave

doctorSpoc said:

but i have found that if you take care of the cooling thing and the inertia thing i actually don't have any adaptation time at all... in fact i can usually pull of higher numbers in late fall inside than i was doing outside.

Same here. In fact, my main concern is that the increases in FTP riding indoors translate to the road.

Quoted post said:

i'm wondering if there may be a difference though because i use rollers, which mimic outside riding more closely than a stationary trainer might. there is no rolling, side to side movement on a trainer as there is outside and on rollers so it might take a while to aclimatize to the slightly different movements... different muscles being used and firing at slightly different times as experienced on a stationary trainer? this is why i actually perfer rollers (now exclusively use rollers) since they mimic outdoor riding more closely, muscle action is almost exactly like outside, means adapation is likely more applicable and likely more effective to. i'm thinking in the way that say x-country skiing is good but uses slightly differenct muscles in slightly different way so is not as effective as a if you just rode your bike. i find that after riding a stationary trainer for an extended amount of time i need to learn how to ride a bike again, spin is off etc so i just sold my trainer and only ride rollers now.

I used to ride rollers a lot but now ride an ergometer which is basically a fancy spin bike. After months of riding inside, if I go outside, I find that my spin is perfectly fine but I can't steer worth a damn.

The skate skiing thing seems to be popular with the other racers around here, which is good because I'm fairly sure it's not nearly as effective as riding.

daveryanwyoming said:

I did an experiment earlier this season. I took an older PT Pro wheel and placed an entire box of stick on wheel balancing weights around the spoke nipples. Basically I created a balanced 13 pound rear wheel. At lower power levels, like during L1/L2 warmups it felt like silk, I could spin it smoothly all day at those power levels on either the CT or KK trainers. But when I started laying down 90-95% L4 efforts that extra inertia didn't make any difference, the wheel spun fine but as you say "Riding hard is hard, no matter how you slice it..."

Anyway, it was an interesting experiment but after about a month I stripped the weights off and sold the wheel to a friend. My power numbers during L4 efforts didn't change when I went back to a standard wheel. Now rollers, that may be different but I don't have a resistance unit for mine and only ride them on easy spin rest days. A friend just picked up a set of e-motion rollers and I'd love to give them a try to see how those feel for hard efforts.

-Dave

yup, rollers without a resistance unit aren't going to be effectiveat all as a training tool, except maybe for active recovery etc... i have the kreitlers with the killer kool headwind fan.. ~1500+W max. with the vent comlpletely open. but for rollers you need to practice on them so you can be comfortable to do hard workouts on them... like maybe only doing your active recovery on them and then when you get accustomed then you can use them for actual workouts.

Squint said:

The skate skiing thing seems to be popular with the other racers around here, which is good because I'm fairly sure it's not nearly as effective as riding.

I guess it depends upon what you are looking for.

If you want a fun, outdoor, cardio-vascular workout that works some muscles that don't get used riding a bike and perhaps works some riding muscles differently at a time when the roads are coated in snow and it's well below freezing outside... then it's fine and good TSS "fill", IMO. It's not riding a bike though. I wouldn't do it to prepare for a bike race in next month. When racing is 3-4 months away though...

Steve_B said:

I'm convinced that for me (and I'm only speaking for me), it's mostly mental.

One thing to add is that given that I am finding the visual stimulation of a DVD like this to really make a difference for me as to whether I can ride in L4 for more than a few minutes at a time indoors during that early winter adjustment period, it's just one more bit of evidence that my adaptation is mostly mental.

Maybe I should get a CT. 🙂

Steve_B said:

One thing to add is that given that I am finding the visual stimulation of a DVD like this to really make a difference for me as to whether I can ride in L4 for more than a few minutes at a time indoors during that early winter adjustment period, it's just one more bit of evidence that my adaptation is mostly mental.

Maybe I should get a CT. 🙂

yes ;-)

actually I find the #1 best thing I can do to tolerate indoor training is to hide every vestige of time I can. This year (perhaps being my 6th!) I'm finding I can't even look at the distance display on the CT as I'm always calculating how much time has elapsed (as I know I avg. ~40kph). Maybe I need to turn off distance on the display as well as time!! Hmmm ... in fact i think I'll try that this weekend as i have a 100k course that takes 3:10-3:15 (long climbs) that I really ought to ride.

But I suppose starting full-bore in October as I normally do and not getting in much more than a weekly ride hopefully (two max) outdoors until April tends to compress one's tolerance over the years.

I have my TV and VCR time both 'deprogrammed' and stay away from news type channels with the time onscreen. I also have my stack of old and not so old TdF mountain, TT and prologue stages some going back to the early 90's. Hey Indurain could climb for a big guy and could *certainly* time trial.
What's DVD stand for BTW? 😄

Even though I can't climb well, I tend to like the mountain stages best.

Steve_B said:

One thing to add is that given that I am finding the visual stimulation of a DVD like this to really make a difference for me as to whether I can ride in L4 for more than a few minutes at a time indoors during that early winter adjustment period, it's just one more bit of evidence that my adaptation is mostly mental.

Maybe I should get a CT. 🙂

advice... never use videos like those on rollers.

you'd be surprised how engrained your instinct is to turn around corners is.. i've been watching TdF mountain stages and ridden right off my rollers trying to follow the pack around some of those curvy decents.. and i just couldn't stop my self from doing either... ended up having to look away every time a curve came up.

rmur17 said:

actually I find the #1 best thing I can do to tolerate indoor training is to hide every vestige of time I can. This year (perhaps being my 6th!) I'm finding I can't even look at the distance display on the CT as I'm always calculating how much time has elapsed (as I know I avg. ~40kph). Maybe I need to turn off distance on the display as well as time!! Hmmm ... in fact i think I'll try that this weekend as i have a 100k course that takes 3:10-3:15 (long climbs) that I really ought to ride.

Interesting. I'm just the opposite. I just stare at the CS screen's timer the whole time. I used to watch a little TV but now I just stare at the screen or let my mind wander. I usually do the same 2 hour 40 min workout everyday.

I actually find it more tolerable than riding rollers which requires more concentration. The addition of erg mode lets me tune out further as I don't have to worry about pacing either.