Unsafe cycling in adverts

Jon said:

What to members think of depicting unsafe riding & cycles in ads. like
this?

I think it's a bit of a non-issue. It happens, I don't think this
encourages people to particularly try it more than they otherwise might.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 02:40:12 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Jon
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

A mail-order catalogue offering vitamin pills, etc, appeared in my
post recently.
On one page it has a photo of two people riding along a path through a
field on a cycle built for one.

The panic about and legal stuff on not having more than one person
on a bike not specially built for more than one person, is a British
thing. There is not a holocaust of dead people in the Netherlands
because two people went to the opera on one bike, generally with the
gentleman pedalling and the lady perched on the back, both in fancy
dress.

Quoted message said:

The machine has no brake levers on the
handlebars and no brake mechanism on the front wheel. The rear wheel
is partly obscured but the hub does not appear large enough to be a
back-pedal brake.

That is more concerning.

Quoted message said:

The machine has a flat rear tyre.

In other words, if they were riding it was only for the short
distance necessary to take what were presumably many photographs.
Anyone who tries to emulate them will soon realise the advantages of
air in tyres.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Jon said:

What to members think of depicting unsafe riding & cycles in ads. like
this?
I'm pretty sure an ad. showing an overloaded and mechanically unsound
car would not be allowed.
Jon

I'm a bit more worried about the puff in the Observer this weekend for
what they described as trendy new york cyclists who use minimalist fixed
wheel bikes (no problem with that) with no brakes (a big problem with that).
Roger Thorpe

Roger Thorpe said:

Jon said:

What to members think of depicting unsafe riding & cycles in ads. like
this?
I'm pretty sure an ad. showing an overloaded and mechanically unsound
car would not be allowed.
Jon

I'm a bit more worried about the puff in the Observer this weekend for
what they described as trendy new york cyclists who use minimalist fixed
wheel bikes (no problem with that) with no brakes (a big problem with
that).
Roger Thorpe

Here's the article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/mar/09/green
The illustration in the magazine clearly showed three or four trendies
on bikes with nothing except the sprocket to slow them down.
Roger

Roger Thorpe said:

The illustration in the magazine clearly showed three or four trendies
on bikes with nothing except the sprocket to slow them down.
Roger

Then that will be a bit like otherwise brakeless fixies that have been
in regular use since bikes have existed... It's not exactly new, and
however wise or not it may be there's a long history of folk who seem to
manage okay with it. The point about this sort of thing is you wouldn't
even be aware it was possible if you weren't fairly experienced.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Jon writtificated

Quoted message said:

What to members think of depicting unsafe riding & cycles in ads. like
this?

It's not shown on a public road so lack of brakes, flat tyre etc is IMHO a
total non issue. It sounds like a positive image of people having fun on a
bike.

Quoted message said:

I'm pretty sure an ad. showing an overloaded and mechanically unsound
car would not be allowed.

Um, I think it prolly would be, though I'm not sure with the ASA code.

Jon said:

A mail-order catalogue offering vitamin pills, etc, appeared in my
post recently.
On one page it has a photo of two people riding along a path through a
field on a cycle built for one. The machine has no brake levers on the
handlebars and no brake mechanism on the front wheel. The rear wheel
is partly obscured but the hub does not appear large enough to be a
back-pedal brake. The machine has a flat rear tyre.

So? It's not on-road and it's simply an advert. This doesn't mean
it's 'real life'.

Quoted message said:

What to members think of depicting unsafe riding & cycles in ads. like
this?

Fine. But I'm not a 'member'.

Quoted message said:

I'm pretty sure an ad. showing an overloaded and mechanically unsound
car would not be allowed.

Why?

PS, it's an advert, not real life.

--
Paul - [censored]

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi 'Big and Butch'
'98 Suzuki DR 200 Djebel 'Small but perfectly formed'
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp "When I feel fit enough'

Roger Thorpe writtificated

Quoted message said:

The illustration in the magazine clearly showed three or four trendies
on bikes with nothing except the sprocket to slow them down.

I'd best not tell you about some of the BMX-ers that don't have brakes, but
do have a freewheel. And no soles left on their shoes.

Peter Clinch said:

Roger Thorpe said:

The illustration in the magazine clearly showed three or four trendies
on bikes with nothing except the sprocket to slow them down.
Roger

Then that will be a bit like otherwise brakeless fixies that have been
in regular use since bikes have existed... It's not exactly new, and
however wise or not it may be there's a long history of folk who seem to
manage okay with it. The point about this sort of thing is you wouldn't
even be aware it was possible if you weren't fairly experienced.

Pete.

Well, I have ridden fixed, though not a lot but would never contemplate
doing so without a brake except on a track. All the trackies that I used
to know would have a front brake attached to get the bike to the 'drome.
BTW I notice that I had misremembered a lot of the article. This is in
London.
Is this common in London now and would you really say that it's
reasonable for urban cycling?

When I read
quote..
Tom Bogdanowicz, of London Cycling Campaign, the largest urban cycling
organisation in the world, says: 'Fixed is enjoyable and good for
fitness, but you have to acquire riding skills. Once mastered, the bikes
are good for urban cycling as they make you very aware of the road and
you can maintain speed at a level that's suitable for traffic. They make
you think ahead.'
....Unquote
This reminds me of certain folk who believe that you can drive as fast
as you like, so long as you can "anticipate".
Roger Thorpe

Roger Thorpe said:

Well, I have ridden fixed, though not a lot but would never contemplate
doing so without a brake except on a track. All the trackies that I used
to know would have a front brake attached to get the bike to the 'drome.
BTW I notice that I had misremembered a lot of the article. This is in
London.
Is this common in London now and would you really say that it's
reasonable for urban cycling?

Whether it's smart in a general sense isn't the issue. I don't regard
it as especially clever, but if people wish to take risks for themselves
it's their problem, not mine. I really can't see a typical reaction to
such an article being "oooh, that's a good idea, I think I'll get a
fixie with no extra brakes!"

Quoted message said:

Tom Bogdanowicz, of London Cycling Campaign, the largest urban cycling
organisation in the world, says: 'Fixed is enjoyable and good for
fitness, but you have to acquire riding skills. Once mastered, the bikes
are good for urban cycling as they make you very aware of the road and
you can maintain speed at a level that's suitable for traffic. They make
you think ahead.'
...Unquote
This reminds me of certain folk who believe that you can drive as fast
as you like, so long as you can "anticipate".

The crucial difference though is the only person likely to end up dead
as a result is the person taking the decision.

Since you should have two brake systems, it's illegal in the UK, of
course. But being dumb isn't.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Roger Thorpe writtificated

Quoted message said:

Tom Bogdanowicz, of London Cycling Campaign, the largest urban cycling
organisation in the world, says: 'Fixed is enjoyable and good for
fitness, but you have to acquire riding skills. Once mastered, the bikes
are good for urban cycling as they make you very aware of the road and
you can maintain speed at a level that's suitable for traffic. They make
you think ahead.'
...Unquote
This reminds me of certain folk who believe that you can drive as fast
as you like, so long as you can "anticipate".

Looks like Tom was talking about riding fixed in general, rather than ones
with no (one) brakes, though I'm happy to be corrected.

I'm ambivalent about peeps that ride fixed with no (well, one I suppose)
brake. On the one hand they pose an increased risk to pedestrians, on the
other hand they'll eventually splatter themselves on the back of a fast-
braking transit.

My fixie has two (three) brakes, so perhaps it averages out in the end.

Roger Thorpe said:

Well, I have ridden fixed, though not a lot but would never contemplate
doing so without a brake except on a track. All the trackies that I used
to know would have a front brake attached to get the bike to the 'drome.
BTW I notice that I had misremembered a lot of the article. This is in
London.
Is this common in London now and would you really say that it's
reasonable for urban cycling?

Fixies seem to be very much on the increase in London, but all those
I've seen have a front brake. I'd guess about half have a rear brake.

Peter Clinch said:

Roger Thorpe said:

Well, I have ridden fixed, though not a lot but would never contemplate
doing so without a brake except on a track. All the trackies that I used
to know would have a front brake attached to get the bike to the 'drome.
BTW I notice that I had misremembered a lot of the article. This is in
London.
Is this common in London now and would you really say that it's
reasonable for urban cycling?

Whether it's smart in a general sense isn't the issue. I don't regard
it as especially clever, but if people wish to take risks for themselves
it's their problem, not mine. I really can't see a typical reaction to
such an article being "oooh, that's a good idea, I think I'll get a
fixie with no extra brakes!"

The article was written by the style correspondent so I think that might
be exactly the reaction that they expect. I'd hate the idea that a
young, hot blooded courier might go without brakes for the sake of
'style' but it's entirely possible (I remember the loon pants that I
used to wear.. huge flares that soaked up mud and water from the
pavement. what a berk I was).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom Bogdanowicz, of London Cycling Campaign, the largest urban cycling
organisation in the world, says: 'Fixed is enjoyable and good for
fitness, but you have to acquire riding skills. Once mastered, the bikes
are good for urban cycling as they make you very aware of the road and
you can maintain speed at a level that's suitable for traffic. They make
you think ahead.'
...Unquote
This reminds me of certain folk who believe that you can drive as fast
as you like, so long as you can "anticipate".

The crucial difference though is the only person likely to end up dead
as a result is the person taking the decision.

Ok, he was unlikely to kill me, but the nitwit who cycled across my path
with his mobile 'phone held to his ear was equally "retardant
disadvantaged" and nearly did me some harm yesterday.

Quoted message said:

Since you should have two brake systems, it's illegal in the UK, of
course. But being dumb isn't.

Pete.

Jon said:

A mail-order catalogue offering vitamin pills, etc, appeared in my
post recently.
On one page it has a photo of two people riding along a path through a
field on a cycle built for one.

To encourage anyone to do that who wouldn't already, I think it would take
remarkably good vitamins in addition to the advert! And the happiness from
the fun could outweigh the risk of injury anyway.

Quoted message said:

The machine has no brake levers on the
handlebars and no brake mechanism on the front wheel. The rear wheel
is partly obscured but the hub does not appear large enough to be a
back-pedal brake.

Those in the UK will have to go to some lengths to find a new bike with no
brakes, and no one is going to bother to remove existing brakes. So this is
a non-issue.

Quoted message said:

The machine has a flat rear tyre.

Bikes feel more comfortable with tyres inflated so people pump them up.

~PB

"Jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A mail-order catalogue offering vitamin pills, etc, appeared in my
post recently.
On one page it has a photo of two people riding along a path through a
field on a cycle built for one. The machine has no brake levers on the
handlebars and no brake mechanism on the front wheel. The rear wheel
is partly obscured but the hub does not appear large enough to be a
back-pedal brake. The machine has a flat rear tyre.

(The people shown seem to be in their late 50's into 60's and I think
the idea is to suggest that taking the pills offered keep older people
fit enough to lark about like this).

What to members think of depicting unsafe riding & cycles in ads. like
this?
I'm pretty sure an ad. showing an overloaded and mechanically unsound
car would not be allowed.

The same firm included a similar picture in another catalogue about a
year ago. I wrote to them about it but they did not deign to reply.

Jon

I wouldn't pay attention to *anything* in a mail order catalogue advertising
vitamin pills etc.

Biggles

Roger Thorpe said:

Jon said:

What to members think of depicting unsafe riding & cycles in ads. like
this?
I'm pretty sure an ad. showing an overloaded and mechanically unsound
car would not be allowed.
Jon

I'm a bit more worried about the puff in the Observer this weekend for
what they described as trendy new york cyclists who use minimalist fixed
wheel bikes (no problem with that) with no brakes (a big problem with
that).

Call me "non stylish" (many have...) but my day-to-day
fixie has Shimano Deora Cantilever(*) brakes
front-and-back.

BugBear

(*) which were state of the art when I was buying/specifying
the bike)

On 14 Mar, 10:33, Mark T
<pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com.invalid>

Quoted message said:

It sounds like a positive image of people having fun on a bike.

Quite, but I'm not so sure about the "positive" aspect. I thought it
depicted bikes as toys to mess about on - a motorists' concept of
cycling. Why not an image of healthy people having fun using properly
equiped bikes for real journeys on the road?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm pretty sure an ad. showing an overloaded and mechanically unsound
car would not be allowed.

Um, I think it prolly would be, though I'm not sure with the ASA code.

It says in the motoring section that ads. must not depict 'dangerous
or unwise' behaviour using a car. I don't think using a car which had
no brakes would be regarded as safe or wise.

Jon

Jon said:

Quite, but I'm not so sure about the "positive" aspect. I thought it
depicted bikes as toys to mess about on - a motorists' concept of
cycling. Why not an image of healthy people having fun using properly
equiped bikes for real journeys on the road?

Just because bikes can be Sensible and Utilitarian they can also be
Frivolous Toys, and that there is /nothing in any way wrong/ with
something being a Frivolous Toy. That a bike can be such a thing is
greatly to its advantage. I ride a Uni precisely /because/ it's a
Frivolous Toy.

Quoted message said:

It says in the motoring section that ads. must not depict 'dangerous
or unwise' behaviour using a car. I don't think using a car which had
no brakes would be regarded as safe or wise.

Interesting what one might class as dangerous... I'd think a fair bit
of motorsport would at least be deemed a bit risky, yet no problem
showing racing/rally cars in adverts. Similarly, which is more
dangerous out of pratting about on a bike with flat tyres for a few
minutes or doing a competitive MTB descent race? I know which one I'd
bet my chances of turning up at A&E on, and it'll be the "positive" one...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Thorpe
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

All the trackies that I used
to know would have a front brake attached to get the bike to the 'drome.

That will be because in the UK it's illegal not to have two independent
brakes on a bike (which is why trikes often have two brakes on the front
wheel). American cruisers that have only a coaster brake are also
illegal, although when I wrote to Trading Standards about someone who
was selling these bikes nothing seemed to happen, so I assume it would
only attract attention in the case of an accident.