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Labor conditions for Pro Tour riders

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Road Cycling
Published
24 March 2008
Last activity
30 March 2008
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Sandy
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  1. I was taking a look through a variety of contracts under a variety of
    federations, and noticed a significant disparity as to working conditions,
    particularly as to hours. I think that this is one significant point in
    evaluating whether riders should consider their common interests and develop
    a common vehicle and format for model employment arrangements. Here are the
    relevant provisions for 3 different national federations for vacation time,
    which is of interest, I imagine, to any cyclist.

    France - 218 days maximum working days, not more than 6 days per week, and
    annual leave equal to five working weeks.

    South Africa - 278 maximum working days, not more than 6 days per week, and
    annual leave equal to 35 calendar days.

    USA - maximum days not numerically limited, unless by federal or state
    statute, no maximum days per week, working hours are subject to "salaried
    employees" provisions of federal and state legislation.

    For reasons too evident to state, national holidays are potential working
    days, not otherwise provided for.

    So yes, it is obvious why France has not produced a winning population of
    riders, if this is the working environment. Nonetheless, there is no
    uniformity to be expected by a rider upon transfer from one contractual
    jurisdiction to another. I just think that those who fail to see the
    fragility of racers' employment situations also fail to understand why they
    are encouraged to seek out means of doing beyond their best, regardless of
    what their contracts provide.

    Much of this appears to me to reflect the type of job insecurity that is
    promoted by global companies, which can choose where to employ people by
    comparing labor costs (where labor is the dominant basis for their revenues.

    I don't imagine there are a lot of readers here who really care, but the
    issue keeps me busy.
    --
    Sandy
    --
    Il n'est aucune sorte de sensation qui soit plus vive
    que celle de la douleur ; ses impressions sont sûres,
    elles ne trompent point comme celles du plaisir.
    - de Sade.

  2. Sandy said:

    Please, unevolved turnip, what wisdom hides in these sage words?

    dumbass,

    if you want to fashion yourself into an expert on pro cycling and
    labour laws why don't you read about what the courts actually ruled in
    the case of disputes:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/oct07/oct15news

    Veneberg to sue Rabobank over contract

    Thorwald Veneberg is going to sue Team Rabobank because he has not
    been offered a new contract for 2008. The Dutch rider claims that
    under Netherlands law that, since he has had a contract with the team
    since January 1, 2001, he should be considered under contract for an
    indefinite period of time.
    ....
    His lawyer, Frank ter Huurne, said that under Dutch law, an employee
    is considered to be hired for an indefinite period after 36 months or
    four employment contracts. "The team has not given any grounds for his
    dismissal in 2008. For this reason we will file a suit in Breda that
    Thorwald must be included in all activities of the Rabo-Team in 2008,"
    he told De Telegraaf.

    --------------

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/dec07/dec05news2

    "Hard reality" for Veneberg

    Thorwald Veneberg has run into what a Dutch judge called "the hard
    reality of top sport." That judge ruled Wednesday morning that
    Veneberg was not entitled to a new contract from Team Rabobank. The
    team had not offered him a new contract for the coming season, and he
    had contested that decision, saying that under Netherlands' employment
    laws, he should be considered under contract for an indefinite period
    of time, since he had had a contract with the team since January 1,
    2001.
    ....
    According to the Belga press agency, the judge ruled that Veneberg's
    contract clearly stated that his services to the team were dependent
    based on his performance. The fact that Rabobank no longer wanted to
    employ Veneberg is "the hard reality of top sport," the judge said He
    ordered that the employment contract would be dissolved by January 1
    with no compensation for the rider.
    --------------

  3. Dans le message de
    news:[email hidden],
    Amit Ghosh <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    Please, unevolved turnip, what wisdom hides in these sage words?

    dumbass,

    if you want to fashion yourself into an expert on pro cycling and
    labour laws why don't you read about what the courts actually ruled in
    the case of disputes:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/oct07/oct15news

    Veneberg to sue Rabobank over contract

    Thorwald Veneberg is going to sue Team Rabobank because he has not
    been offered a new contract for 2008. The Dutch rider claims that
    under Netherlands law that, since he has had a contract with the team
    since January 1, 2001, he should be considered under contract for an
    indefinite period of time.
    ...
    His lawyer, Frank ter Huurne, said that under Dutch law, an employee
    is considered to be hired for an indefinite period after 36 months or
    four employment contracts. "The team has not given any grounds for his
    dismissal in 2008. For this reason we will file a suit in Breda that
    Thorwald must be included in all activities of the Rabo-Team in 2008,"
    he told De Telegraaf.

    --------------

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/dec07/dec05news2

    "Hard reality" for Veneberg

    Thorwald Veneberg has run into what a Dutch judge called "the hard
    reality of top sport." That judge ruled Wednesday morning that
    Veneberg was not entitled to a new contract from Team Rabobank. The
    team had not offered him a new contract for the coming season, and he
    had contested that decision, saying that under Netherlands' employment
    laws, he should be considered under contract for an indefinite period
    of time, since he had had a contract with the team since January 1,
    2001.
    ...
    According to the Belga press agency, the judge ruled that Veneberg's
    contract clearly stated that his services to the team were dependent
    based on his performance. The fact that Rabobank no longer wanted to
    employ Veneberg is "the hard reality of top sport," the judge said He
    ordered that the employment contract would be dissolved by January 1
    with no compensation for the rider.
    --------------

    There was a point, I guess, to your writing what _you_ did. What was it?
    Not professing to be a Dutch lawyer, but knowing just enough to stay out of
    trouble, the judge ruled correctly.
    Your point?

  4. Dans le message de
    news:[email hidden],
    Amit Ghosh <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    Please, unevolved turnip, what wisdom hides in these sage words?

    dumbass,

    if you want to fashion yourself into an expert on pro cycling and
    labour laws why don't you read about what the courts actually ruled in
    the case of disputes:

    Forgot .............
    Ping ..............

  5. Amit Ghosh said:


    the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
    community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
    explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling

    <snip>

    Dumbass -

    I disagree.

    The culture, in general, has been in a malaise for some time now. It
    goes way beyond bike racing.

    thanks,

    K. Gringioni.

  6. Kurgan Gringioni said:
    Amit Ghosh said:

    the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
    community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
    explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling

    <snip>

    Dumbass -

    I disagree.

    The culture, in general, has been in a malaise for some time now. It
    goes way beyond bike racing.

    thanks,

    K. Gringioni.

    dumbass,

    sounds like they need to fry up some panache.

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA and saw that now (not) all the teams
    got 25 injections every day
    Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO
    FDREU: you mean all the riders
    Cyclevaughters: Credit Agricole
    FDREU: it's crazy
    Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of [censored] when he'd say
    everyone was doing it
    FDREU: You may read stuff that i say to radio or press, praising the
    Tour and lance but it's just playing the game
    Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on
    nothing. Hct of 39%

    the top 3 or 4 french teams also know that they are almost sure to get
    a spot in the tour and a doping scandal would be more detrimental than
    lousy performance.

  7. | the top 3 or 4 french teams also know that they are almost sure to get
    | a spot in the tour and a doping scandal would be more detrimental than
    | lousy performance.

    So the solution to doping in sport is to base entry to an event on something
    other than performance?

    My guess is that the difference between doping and riding clean isn't
    anywhere near the difference seen between the present French teams and those
    capable of winning the 'Tour. I don't question that effective doping,
    combined with a disciplined structure (strong DS who the riders will die
    for), is going to have an advantage. But doping by itself, in my opinion, is
    going to determine the outcome less than a strong team (without doping).

    What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else seemed
    to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the TdF) that
    they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their single-minded pursuit of
    the TdF in a very negative way. But having a team act entirely selflessly
    towards the goal of delivering one person to the top podium spot in Paris
    was certainly an advantage few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to
    overcome systemic doping without engaging in it themselves? I don't know.
    But I do suspect that Postal/Discovery would have been vulnerable had
    another team decided to put everything behind winning the 'Tour.

    A very long-winded way of saying there's more reasons than a failure to dope
    that have kept French teams from dominating the TdF. At the very least I
    wouldn't assume a certain level of nobility and innocence based upon their
    relative failures.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    "Amit Ghosh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    | On Mar 24, 11:04 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email hidden]> wrote:
    | > On Mar 24, 5:39 pm, Amit Ghosh <[email hidden]> wrote:
    | >
    | >
    | >
    | > > the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
    | > > community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
    | > > explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling
    | >
    | > <snip>
    | >
    | > Dumbass -
    | >
    | > I disagree.
    | >
    | > The culture, in general, has been in a malaise for some time now. It
    | > goes way beyond bike racing.
    | >
    | > thanks,
    | >
    | > K. Gringioni.
    |
    | dumbass,
    |
    | sounds like they need to fry up some panache.
    |
    | http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html
    |
    | Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA and saw that now (not) all the teams
    | got 25 injections every day
    | Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO
    | FDREU: you mean all the riders
    | Cyclevaughters: Credit Agricole
    | FDREU: it's crazy
    | Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of [censored] when he'd say
    | everyone was doing it
    | FDREU: You may read stuff that i say to radio or press, praising the
    | Tour and lance but it's just playing the game
    | Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on
    | nothing. Hct of 39%
    |
    |
    | the top 3 or 4 french teams also know that they are almost sure to get
    | a spot in the tour and a doping scandal would be more detrimental than
    | lousy performance.

  8. Amit Ghosh said:
    Sandy said:

    Please, unevolved turnip, what wisdom hides in these sage words?

    dumbass,

    if you want to fashion yourself into an expert on pro cycling and
    labour laws why don't you read about what the courts actually ruled in
    the case of disputes:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/oct07/oct15news

    Veneberg to sue Rabobank over contract

    Thorwald Veneberg is going to sue Team Rabobank because he has not
    been offered a new contract for 2008. The Dutch rider claims that
    under Netherlands law that, since he has had a contract with the team
    since January 1, 2001, he should be considered under contract for an
    indefinite period of time.
    ...
    His lawyer, Frank ter Huurne, said that under Dutch law, an employee
    is considered to be hired for an indefinite period after 36 months or
    four employment contracts. "The team has not given any grounds for his
    dismissal in 2008. For this reason we will file a suit in Breda that
    Thorwald must be included in all activities of the Rabo-Team in 2008,"
    he told De Telegraaf.

    --------------

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/dec07/dec05news2

    "Hard reality" for Veneberg

    Thorwald Veneberg has run into what a Dutch judge called "the hard
    reality of top sport." That judge ruled Wednesday morning that
    Veneberg was not entitled to a new contract from Team Rabobank. The
    team had not offered him a new contract for the coming season, and he
    had contested that decision, saying that under Netherlands' employment
    laws, he should be considered under contract for an indefinite period
    of time, since he had had a contract with the team since January 1,
    2001.
    ...
    According to the Belga press agency, the judge ruled that Veneberg's
    contract clearly stated that his services to the team were dependent
    based on his performance. The fact that Rabobank no longer wanted to
    employ Veneberg is "the hard reality of top sport," the judge said He
    ordered that the employment contract would be dissolved by January 1
    with no compensation for the rider.
    --------------

    If you think about how pathetic this lawsuit is had Veneberg prevailed,
    it would mean that Rabobank could never fire any rider even if the rider
    were 52 years old and got dropped every race. That's not lucid.

    This was another lawyer scam but Veneberg is probably too stupid to
    realize that.

    Magilla

  9. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Kurgan Gringioni said:
    Amit Ghosh said:


    the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
    community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
    explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling

    <snip>

    Dumbass -

    I disagree.

    The culture, in general, has been in a malaise for some time now. It
    goes way beyond bike racing.

    NO ONE RIDES A BICYCLE IN FRANCE!!!! TOM SAYS SO, IT MUST BE TRUE!

    612 Miles in January!

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Whatever happened to
    Leon Trotsky?
    He got an icepick
    That made his ears burn.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  10. Mike Jacoubowsky said:


    What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else seemed
    to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the TdF) that
    they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their single-minded pursuit of
    the TdF in a very negative way. But having a team act entirely selflessly
    towards the goal of delivering one person to the top podium spot in Paris
    was certainly an advantage few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to
    overcome systemic doping without engaging in it themselves?


    Thanks for the laugh.

  11. Kyle Legate said:
    Mike Jacoubowsky said:

    What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else seemed
    to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the TdF) that
    they had.  Actually that's not true; many saw their single-minded pursuit of
    the TdF in a very negative way. But having a team act entirely selflessly
    towards the goal of delivering one person to the top podium spot in Paris
    was certainly an advantage few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to
    overcome systemic doping without engaging in it themselves?

    Thanks for the laugh.

    Dumbass -

    Postal was still the best. They were the best at gaming the system.

    That's what any athletic endeavor is. Football players hold (and
    dope), basketball players foul (and dope), soccer players tackle from
    behind (and dope), soccer players fake getting fouled (and dope),
    hockey players grab and clutch (and dope), cyclists dope.

    Everyone games their system.

    It's part of our culture. People don't admire good sportsmen/losers.
    They admire WINNERS, no matter how ruthless.

    It's a shame, but it's the truth.

    thanks,

    K. Gringioni.

  12. Amit Ghosh said:

    the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
    community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
    explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling (there
    were some scandals a with gaumont and some foreign riders on cofidis,
    but no french riders were implicated in puerto, wiener blut, oil for
    drugs, etc.)

    The French have had a lot of success on the track at Worlds
    and in the Olympics. Track racing doesn't draw much attention
    which is a mixed blessing I suppose. But the witch hunters
    don't seem interested in checking their mineral water.

    Bob Schwartz

  13. Bob Schwartz said:


    The French have had a lot of success on the track at Worlds
    and in the Olympics. Track racing doesn't draw much attention
    which is a mixed blessing I suppose. But the witch hunters
    don't seem interested in checking their mineral water.

    They will be in Manchester for the World's starting tomorrow

  14. Bob Schwartz said:


    The French have had a lot of success on the track at Worlds
    and in the Olympics. Track racing doesn't draw much attention
    which is a mixed blessing I suppose. But the witch hunters
    don't seem interested in checking their mineral water.

    They will be in Manchester for the World's starting tomorrow

  15. Bob Schwartz said:
    Amit Ghosh said:

    the festina affair in '98 had a traumatic effect on the french cycling
    community and the lacklustre performance by french riders since is
    explained more by the relative lack of doping in french cycling (there
    were some scandals a with gaumont and some foreign riders on cofidis,
    but no french riders were implicated in puerto, wiener blut, oil for
    drugs, etc.)

    The French have had a lot of success on the track at Worlds
    and in the Olympics. Track racing doesn't draw much attention
    which is a mixed blessing I suppose. But the witch hunters
    don't seem interested in checking their mineral water.

    Bob Schwartz

    Yeah, the "witch hunters" don't really chase after track riders like
    Tammy Thomas, Adam Sbeih (tested positive for EPO after US track
    nationals), or Stephen Alfred.

    Thanks,

    Magilla

  16. "Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Jacoubowsky said:


    What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
    seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the
    TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
    single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having a
    team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one person to
    the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage few, if any other
    riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic doping without engaging
    in it themselves?


    Thanks for the laugh.

    The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really has much
    to do with doping.

    --Mike Jacoubowsky
    Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReaction.com
    Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

  17. "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Jacoubowsky said:


    What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
    seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the
    TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
    single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having a
    team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one person
    to the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage few, if any
    other riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic doping without
    engaging in it themselves?


    Thanks for the laugh.

    The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really has
    much to do with doping.

    When I was there I asked that question of the couple of intelligent
    Frenchmen I met and they said it was because France had turned its back on
    cycling as a sport because other sports were so much easier.

  18. Mike Jacoubowsky said:

    "Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Jacoubowsky said:

    What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
    seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning the
    TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
    single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having a
    team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one person to
    the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage few, if any other
    riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic doping without engaging
    in it themselves?


    Thanks for the laugh.

    The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really has much
    to do with doping.


    I know what the question was. And yes, the lack of success does have
    much to do with doping.

  19. Tom Kunich said:

    "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

    >
    > What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
    > seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning
    > the TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
    > single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having
    > a team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one
    > person to the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage
    > few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic
    > doping without engaging in it themselves?

    Thanks for the laugh.

    The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really
    has much to do with doping.

    When I was there I asked that question of the couple of intelligent
    Frenchmen I met and they said it was because France had turned its back
    on cycling as a sport because other sports were so much easier.

    I know whenever I want to find out why millions of people do or don't do
    something, I ask one (1) person and then use that single person's answer
    to arrive at a definitive conclusion for the other millions I didn't ask.

    Thanks for the insight into your survey technique,

    Magilla

  20. MagillaGorilla said:
    Tom Kunich said:

    "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> What's frequently ignored about Postal/Discovery is that nobody else
    >> seemed to have the drive & dedication to a specific task (winning
    >> the TdF) that they had. Actually that's not true; many saw their
    >> single-minded pursuit of the TdF in a very negative way. But having
    >> a team act entirely selflessly towards the goal of delivering one
    >> person to the top podium spot in Paris was certainly an advantage
    >> few, if any other riders, had. Was it enough to overcome systemic
    >> doping without engaging in it themselves?
    >
    > Thanks for the laugh.

    The question was whether the lack of success by French teams really
    has much to do with doping.

    When I was there I asked that question of the couple of intelligent
    Frenchmen I met and they said it was because France had turned its back
    on cycling as a sport because other sports were so much easier.

    I know whenever I want to find out why millions of people do or don't do
    something, I ask one (1) person and then use that single person's answer
    to arrive at a definitive conclusion for the other millions I didn't ask.

    Thanks for the insight into your survey technique,

    But Tom used *intelligent* Frenchmen. Although that might seem oxymoronic
    if you hate the French, ironic if you think Tom might have trouble telling
    if the person he is talking to is intelligent, or retarded, the point is
    that Tom didn't just talk to any old Frenchman. No, he was like Diogenes,
    Oedipus, or one of the dwarves in The Lord of the Rings, searching for
    *intelligent* Frenchmen, except he didn't have a lamp and didn't make
    friends with any elves. That Tom used two intelligent Frenchmen, and not
    just the first two, but a random sampling of two of *all* the intelligent
    Frenchmen he met, shows that his statistical sense is as good as his sense
    of everything else and I think you owe him an apology. Chung would back
    me up on this if he ever bothered reading my most excellent posts.

    Anyway, don't all Frenchmen look alike so what's the difference?

    --
    Bill Asher

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