Need Some Help Please....

Not sure if I'm reading your question correctly, but are you saying that you want to train specifically for the crit on the 12th? If so, I don't really see much there that's going to prepare you for the demands of a crit (ie, 30-45 minutes, high intensity, frequent jumps to high power with very short rests).

If you're looking for more crit-specific training, then I'd probably suggest adding 1-2 sessions of microintervals into the routine. Say, 2 reps x 20 minutes of 15seconds very hard (L6) / 15 seconds soft pedalling (L1).

What you've shown there strikes me as a sensible low-SST base-training routine, so if that's what you have in mind then I've misunderstood. I just don't see anything that'd make me feel that I was well-prepared crit racing.

Yea the 12th will be my first one, but I plan to race some more and some training series along the way. I am looking for something to help me get ready for the 12th and beyond for the rest of the season. Would I need to the intervals to somthing else? What would a few workouts besides the one above llok like.

Overall how does the above look like as for as racing in crits?

Thanks
Guys

frenchyge said:

Not sure if I'm reading your question correctly, but are you saying that you want to train specifically for the crit on the 12th? If so, I don't really see much there that's going to prepare you for the demands of a crit (ie, 30-45 minutes, high intensity, frequent jumps to high power with very short rests).

If you're looking for more crit-specific training, then I'd probably suggest adding 1-2 sessions of microintervals into the routine. Say, 2 reps x 20 minutes of 15seconds very hard (L6) / 15 seconds soft pedalling (L1).

What you've shown there strikes me as a sensible low-SST base-training routine, so if that's what you have in mind then I've misunderstood. I just don't see anything that'd make me feel that I was well-prepared crit racing.

trackstar4883 said:

Yea the 12th will be my first one, but I plan to race some more and some training series along the way. I am looking for something to help me get ready for the 12th and beyond for the rest of the season. Would I need to the intervals to somthing else? What would a few workouts besides the one above llok like.

If you're wanting to train specifically for crits, then I'd add 1-2 microinterval sessions like I described into your week somehow. I'd probably suggest replacing portions of your zone 2 work with those higher intensity efforts.

trackstar4883 said:

Overall how does the above look like as for as racing in crits?

If this is your first crit EVER, then I'd suggest you browse through a couple of these threads for some good discussion of what they're like:

cyclingforums.comsearch.phpOpen ↗

cyclingforums.comsearch.phpOpen ↗

Thanks. What are some microinterval workouts other then the one you describe?

I did do a training series ride yesterday. It was 15 laps on a 0.8 course. First time in a pack and such. I rode in the top 15 or so for the first 5 laps but it took a lot of effort to get there since I got pushed to the back. Then the first prime went off and I got smoked and spent all day trying to catch up. I was spent and started to cramp badly, but I finished.

So I changed my workouts based on my weakness in hopes to improve for the next ride this Sun and improve for the crit on the 12th and beyond
So the first post is what I came up with , but I will add a microsession in there like frenchgye suggested.

Anyother suggestions?

Well I am heading out for the recovery ride but instead of zone 2 i will be in zone 1 with a cadance of 90 or above for 90 mins .

Thanks.
Guys

OTE=frenchyge]If you're wanting to train specifically for crits, then I'd add 1-2 microinterval sessions like I described into your week somehow. I'd probably suggest replacing portions of your zone 2 work with those higher intensity efforts.

If this is your first crit EVER, then I'd suggest you browse through a couple of these threads for some good discussion of what they're like:

cyclingforums.comsearch.phpOpen ↗

cyclingforums.comsearch.phpOpen ↗[/QUOTE]

riding your first crit the main limiter you will face will be your lack of experience and bike handling skills. you will waste energy fighting for the wrong position in the pack, and you'll probably end up near the back getting the full might of the accordion effect. Basiclly the front end of the peloton can take the corners at speed, but down the line guys apply the brakes, and at the tail end you'll come to a near standstill. Out the other side of the corner you'll have to sprint from say 10 km/h up to 40 out of every corner, and very quickly this will burn you up.

If this is your first race you'll also find that you can't take the corners as fast as the more experienced riders, so out of every bend you'll have to work extra hard to close the gap to stay in the draft.

This is the same for every rider in their first crits, and believe it oy not some guys never get much good at them. Crits suit sprinters more than anyone else. I suck at crits, but I know my limitations and how to hang in there.

Here's what you can do:

The first 15-30 mins of a crit are usually super fast. Everyone is excited, the strong guys are attacking and chasing each other. You can expect to ride this at your max. It will hurt.There is a good chance you will not survive this onslaught and will get dropped. Don't worry - this happens to really good guys from time to time. To avoid getting dropped though - START AT THE FRONT. Once the race starts you need to be thinking one thing - STAY NEAR THE FRONT. Every time there is any lull in the speed try and move up a few places. . Staying at the front achieves 2 things. Firstly you go round the corners faster, stressing your L6 less. Secondly, when you start to suffer and go backwards, you have more room to retreat before you go off the back. You might recover, or it might slow down in time. An additional advantage of being near the front is that you have less risk of crashing. The weaker and less experienced guys congregate near the back and thi is where guys touch wheels and hit the deck.

if you survive the initial madness and it feels easier you nhave a chance to analyse the race and see what's going on. as tghisis your first vrace i advise one thing - stay in the peloton near the front. That way you're guranteed to finish. at least. you might even have a chance to sprint for a top 10

Thanks for the advice Bullgod. Now as far as training, how can I prepare and get ready for this crit and beyond. What does L6 mean?

How is the above training with some added intervals sound? All the advice I have been getting is awesome. What are some workouts for example that will help with crits in the future.

Thanks
Guys

=BullGod]riding your first crit the main limiter you will face will be your lack of experience and bike handling skills. you will waste energy fighting for the wrong position in the pack, and you'll probably end up near the back getting the full might of the accordion effect. Basiclly the front end of the peloton can take the corners at speed, but down the line guys apply the brakes, and at the tail end you'll come to a near standstill. Out the other side of the corner you'll have to sprint from say 10 km/h up to 40 out of every corner, and very quickly this will burn you up.

If this is your first race you'll also find that you can't take the corners as fast as the more experienced riders, so out of every bend you'll have to work extra hard to close the gap to stay in the draft.

This is the same for every rider in their first crits, and believe it oy not some guys never get much good at them. Crits suit sprinters more than anyone else. I suck at crits, but I know my limitations and how to hang in there.

Here's what you can do:

The first 15-30 mins of a crit are usually super fast. Everyone is excited, the strong guys are attacking and chasing each other. You can expect to ride this at your max. It will hurt.There is a good chance you will not survive this onslaught and will get dropped. Don't worry - this happens to really good guys from time to time. To avoid getting dropped though - START AT THE FRONT. Once the race starts you need to be thinking one thing - STAY NEAR THE FRONT. Every time there is any lull in the speed try and move up a few places. . Staying at the front achieves 2 things. Firstly you go round the corners faster, stressing your L6 less. Secondly, when you start to suffer and go backwards, you have more room to retreat before you go off the back. You might recover, or it might slow down in time. An additional advantage of being near the front is that you have less risk of crashing. The weaker and less experienced guys congregate near the back and thi is where guys touch wheels and hit the deck.

if you survive the initial madness and it feels easier you nhave a chance to analyse the race and see what's going on. as tghisis your first vrace i advise one thing - stay in the peloton near the front. That way you're guranteed to finish. at least. you might even have a chance to sprint for a top 10[/QUOTE]

Where's zone 4?

For your Tuesday intervals, either ride zone 5 for 4-6 minutes stretches, or do 2 minute all out intervals and ignore your heart rate. 2 minutes at zone 5 is neither hard enough to optimally target anaerobic power, nor long enough to target VO2Max power.

trackstar4883 said:

I will get to the point fast in hopes of some replys before I train today. I did my first training series Sunday in hopes of gaining experience for my first crit in April and to see where I stand as far as fitness. I need to work on my base/endurance, intervals, and some tech. work. I have the sprint power but not enough endurance. Here is what I planned for this week.

Monday ride for 90 mins in zone 2, low cadance 70-75
Tuesday-ride for 2 hours-intervals, 2mins in zone 5 or max HR, rest 6 mins repeat then rest for 15 mins then repeat above 2 more times, finish ride in zone 2 cadance 90-95
Weds.-2 hours in zone 2 and tech work on rollers for 20 mins
Thurs-2 hours in zones 2-3
Fri-rest and tech work on roller for 20 mins
Sat- 2 hours to 2.5 hours with 5 30sec sprints max cadance
Sun- training serious again

First crit is April 12th.

Any advice would be sweet and if I should change something before I do todays ride, monday that would be sweet as well.

Thanks, guys

Er dude no offence but there ain't much insensity in your training regime. I like my workouts fairly simple so don't do the mcrointervals that Frenchyge suggests. However I do do a lot of tempo/sweet spot (friendly fast pace 60-90mins) and threshold (close to or @TT pace efforts 30-60mins). This definitly allows you to keep up with bunch pace etc. I had my first race last sat (see link below) and found that, in the main, I was fine despite almost no high intensity interval training (1-5mins).

Bulldog's ride at the front suggestion is a good one, however you've got to be up there from the get go. Once you've started to burn matches, or you don't concentrate and prevent gaps from opening[img]cyclingforums.comredface.gifOpen ↗[/img] , as I did its to late. Also you'll still need to have good threshold power to ride up front

What are some tempo/sweet spot and threshold workouts? If you could reply with some workouts that would be sweet.

Thanks

Ade Merckx said:

Er dude no offence but there ain't much insensity in your training regime. I like my workouts fairly simple so don't do the mcrointervals that Frenchyge suggests. However I do do a lot of tempo/sweet spot (friendly fast pace 60-90mins) and threshold (close to or @TT pace efforts 30-60mins). This definitly allows you to keep up with bunch pace etc. I had my first race last sat (see link below) and found that, in the main, I was fine despite almost no high intensity interval training (1-5mins).

Bulldog's ride at the front suggestion is a good one, however you've got to be up there from the get go. Once you've started to burn matches, or you don't concentrate and prevent gaps from opening[img]cyclingforums.comredface.gifOpen ↗[/img] , as I did its to late. Also you'll still need to have good threshold power to ride up front

trackstar4883 said:

What are some tempo/sweet spot and threshold workouts? If you could reply with some workouts that would be sweet.

Thanks

40/20 or 50/10 intervals work well for me. They FEEL like a crit.

Try 20 minute blocks of 40 seconds moderate effort (middle of the pack siumulation) and then do a 10/20 second sprint in not too big a gear - leg speed! For added crit realism slow down / brake before your "sprint" to simulate coming out of a corner. Remember you're not practicing your McEwen finishing strait effort you're just looking to practice the accelorating out of a corner effort.

You should do this exercise at an intensity sufficient to totally cook you by 20 minutes. Then ride easy for 20 mins then repeat.

do this once a week. If you can onnly do one interval, don't worry.....youu'll build up to 2/3. remember- if it hurts it's doing you good.

So one 20 min block, would be 40 secs at a moderate pace then sprint for 10-20 secs then back to a 40 sec moderate pace then sprint again for 10-20 secs.?

BullGod said:

40/20 or 50/10 intervals work well for me. They FEEL like a crit.

Try 20 minute blocks of 40 seconds moderate effort (middle of the pack siumulation) and then do a 10/20 second sprint in not too big a gear - leg speed! For added crit realism slow down / brake before your "sprint" to simulate coming out of a corner. Remember you're not practicing your McEwen finishing strait effort you're just looking to practice the accelorating out of a corner effort.

You should do this exercise at an intensity sufficient to totally cook you by 20 minutes. Then ride easy for 20 mins then repeat.

do this once a week. If you can onnly do one interval, don't worry.....youu'll build up to 2/3. remember- if it hurts it's doing you good.

trackstar4883 said:

So one 20 min block, would be 40 secs at a moderate pace then sprint for 10-20 secs then back to a 40 sec moderate pace then sprint again for 10-20 secs.?

Yes. They're harsh, but good training.

of course you'll need a good base to perform these, so see how you go.

BullGod said:

...of course you'll need a good base to perform these, so see how you go.

Agreed, BullGod's suggestions are another form of Bill Black's Hour of Power (HOP) workouts. Short accelerations fairly frequently but only dropping back to Tempo or low L4 during the rests. Really good stuff for crit training, should help you get used to jumping repeatedly out of crit corners and having to recover at race speed.

But since the OP is targeting his first crit and BullGod is an elite level cyclist riding full time, the point about base and just plain aerobic fitness is really important. If the OP struggles in his first crit it could be blamed on lack of acceleration or dynamic power training but I'd put my money on just plain lack of sustainable power for most new riders.

From that standpoint you might consider doing at most one of these bursty HOP workouts per week but structure your weekly training around L4, SST and Tempo training to bring up your sustainable power. There are lots of variations on this sort of work from the 2x20 minute efforts so many folks like to longer sustained Tempo efforts. But they all get breathing deeply and steadily and working for sustained durations. Each interval should be sustained for 10 minutes at the very least and longer is better. Even at the lower end of these intensities(Tempo) you should be breathing deeply and steadily but very comfortably. The high end (L4) work basically translates to 10 to 30 minute time trials ridden just a bit below your best possible pace so that you can do more than one of them. These take a lot of mental focus and aren't exactly comfortable by the end but you should pace them so that you can finish your target durations(10, 15, 20 minutes, etc.). If you blow up after just a few minutes then you're riding too hard and you should try the next one a bit easier after five to ten minutes of rest riding.

Search these forums for SST(Sweet Spot Training), Tempo, FTP, L3, L4, etc. You might also check these links:
cyclingpeakssoftware.compower411Open ↗
fascatcoaching.comsweetspot.htmlOpen ↗
fascatcoaching.comSweetSpot partdeux.htmlOpen ↗

Good luck in your training and definitely find some time to work on dynamic riding with short bursts and recovery but base your training on core aerobic fitness if you really want to see improvement.

-Dave

This is the workout I am planning for today. Go for 20 minutes then ride for 50 secs at a decent pace then sprint for 15-20 secs, repeat 10 times. Go for 20 minutes ride for 50 secs at a decent pace then sprint 15-20 secs, repeat 10 times, then ride for 20 minutes. How does it look and I know I might not make the last 10, but I will have to see. I want the intensity to be the same so I will see when I get out there.

This is a fairly easy question, but what is the best way to learn about riding in a pack and following a wheel?

Thanks
Guys

daveryanwyomisng said:

Agreed, BullGod's suggestions are another form of Bill Black's Hour of Power (HOP) workout the Short accelerations fairly frequently but only dropping back to Tempo or low L4 during the rests. Really good stuff for crit training, should help you get used to jumping repeatedly out of crit corners and having to recover at race speed.

But since the OP is targeting his first crit and BullGod is an elite level cyclist riding full time, the point about base and just plain aerobic fitness is really important. If the OP struggles in his first crit it could be blamed on lack of acceleration or dynamic power training but I'd put my money on just plain lack of sustainable power for most new riders.

From that standpoint you might consider doing at most one of these bursty HOP workouts per week but structure your weekly training around L4, SST and Tempo training to bring up your sustainable power. There are lots of variations on this sort of work from the 2x20 minute efforts so many folks like to longer sustained Tempo efforts. But they all get breathing deeply and steadily and working for sustained durations. Each interval should be sustained for 10 minutes at the very least and longer is better. Even at the lower end of these intensities(Tempo) you should be breathing deeply and steadily but very comfortably. The high end (L4) work basically translates to 10 to 30 minute time trials ridden just a bit below your best possible pace so that you can do more than one of them. These take a lot of mental focus and aren't exactly comfortable by the end but you should pace them so that you can finish your target durations(10, 15, 20 minutes, etc.). If you blow up after just a few minutes then you're riding too hard and you should try the next one a bit easier after five to ten minutes of rest riding.

Search these forums for SST(Sweet Spot Training), Tempo, FTP, L3, L4, etc. You might also check these links:
cyclingpeakssoftware.compower411Open ↗
fascatcoaching.comsweetspot.htmlOpen ↗
fascatcoaching.comSweetSpot partdeux.htmlOpen ↗

Good luck in your training and definitely find some time to work on dynamic riding with short bursts and recovery but base your training on core aerobic fitness if you really want to see improvement.

-Dave

trackstar4883 said:

This is a fairly easy question, but what is the best way to learn about riding in a pack and following a wheel?

It's an easy answer: Ride in a pack and follow wheels.

If you're a bit nervous about that then have someone experienced ride with you at the back of the bunch and get used to riding closer up to the riders in front. Learn to look over the shoulder of the rider in front of you so you can anticipate what's coming. Do nothing unpredictable or sudden. Keep movements smooth and predictable. After a while then join in the line. Organise for experienced riders to be next to you and behind you so they can give guidance along the way.

[quote="Alex Simmons"]It's an easy answer: Ride in a pack and follow wheels.

In addition to what Alex says - try to relax. Don;t tense up. If the pack starts braking just calmly reduce your speed - try not to overreact.

Basically Pelotons tend to oscillate between two states. Short and fat, using the whole width of the road when it is going slow, and noone is attacking or chasing, or interested in going hard, and then long and thin, often single file when the speed is ip.

Moving up places is hard when the pack is flying, if the riders are in single file doing 48km/h and you want to ride to the front you'll need to come out of the fradt and ride 50+ alone against the wind to move foreward. This will not be easy or pleasant. Also, moving forward is tough when the peoloton is trundling along, as riders are bunched up elbow to elbow across the width of the road.

Here are the places to move up: just before and just after corners, if safe / possible. Don;tbrake late at corners and zoom up the inside of the pack. It's dangerous and people don't like it.

When the peloton has been doing single file and fast for a while, and you see it slowing and bunching up ahead of you you can kill your speed a few seconds later than the others and look for gaps in front of you to ride into before you brake. You might even find space on the outside you get all the way to the front if you're lucky.

Audible communication can help - if you're wanting to take a bike sized gap on the left and you're worried another rider might move accross as you get there shout "left" to him before you go.

Here's another great trick - when you see a strong rider moving up the field. jump on his wheel - get a free ride up to the ffront. He'll find a way through and give you a draft.

Sorry to say this but the only thing that really worls is experience and nerve. Some guys who are really strong and talented suck at riding in a pack - Tom Danielson for example - and waste lots of energy. .

Sometimes it can be plain dangerous - in the lower categories you have inexperienced riders swerving aroundnot paying attention, and in the top level there is so much at stake and so many strong riders that sometimes there just isn't enough road. Last weekend i rode a 180km classic in North Holland. These races always have a lunatic dangerous neutralisation and thenonce the race starts it's 55km/h with everyone trying to get up ffront before the crosswinds tear the bunch up iinto groups. There were traffic calming bumps and some other road furniture around and i knew someone whould come a cropper. But I still had to try and get up front. I was moving up a nice gap on the inside after 10km when some riders tangled in front of me, and a nice pile up at 50 was the result. I tried to mount the kerb to avoid it but the kerb was too high and I went over the bars. Totally unhurt, but everybody behind the crash couldn't get back to the peloton and was out of the race. Everyone knew there would be a spill in the middle somewhere, and some guys had actually given up the race effectively and gone to the back for safety. It's sometimes a question of being sensible and weighing up the odds and what's important to you. Even at elite level guys have jobs and families, and broken bones aren't worth risking unless you're sprinting for the win or something.