Re: Where the cyclists in America belong: back alleys, gutters and sidewalks

Tom Keats:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Ball said:

Tom Keats:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Don Klipstein) writes:

> The main offense of cyclists against cars is running red lights while
> cars that have green lights have expectations of right-of-way.

[censored]! Riders do /not/ suicidally barge into
cross traffic. No rational person does.

He didn't say they did. Just that they stop bikes run far more red lights
than cars generally do.

If a vehicle operator goes through a red light at a minor
intersection when there's no cross-traffic, where's the harm?

I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, why not
motorists? I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
on then intersecting road, where's the harm? Do you want to apply this to
speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)

We have fundamentally different views here in that I enjoy my car, whereas
you never want to own one, but try to make room for that not all motorists
are the enemy but many, like a lot of people people, if you choose to make
them so, will accept the mantle.

Steve = : ^ )

Steve Ball said:

I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, why not
motorists? I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
on then intersecting road, where's the harm? Do you want to apply this to
speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)

From what I see here in America, what's good for the goose is indeed
good for the gander. That is, everyone violates traffic laws.

I have a stop sign less than 100 yards from where I'm typing this.
Only about half the motorists come to a complete stop. I regularly
see motorists going through red lights. That's most often by
squeezing through a fresh red before cross traffic starts up, but I
regularly see deliberate disobedience of a light that was long red
(including one memorable one by a cop - no siren or emergency lights;
he just didn't want to wait). I see a majority of motorists exceeding
speed limits, and neglecting turn signals before turning or changing
lanes. I regularly see motorists violating the laws in other ways as
well - the list could go on and on.

Bicyclists and pedestrians do the same, of course. I believe the
major difference is not in frequency of disobedience, but in
consequences of disobedience. Bicyclists and pedestrians almost never
injure anyone but themselves by their mistakes. Motorists in America
routinely kill tens of thousands per year.

(However, that's does NOT give credence to the "bicycling is
dangerous!!!" nonsense. Most of those killed by motorists are
motorists. Only a very few are cyclists.)

In summary: People will not be perfect in their obedience to laws,
whether they are on foot, on two wheels or on four (or more). Yes,
the legal system does generally concentrate on motorist violations,
but that's only logical, since motorist offenses are the ones that do
almost all the harm.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Steve Ball said:

I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, whynot
motorists? I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
on then intersecting road, where's the harm? Do you want to apply this to
speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)

From what I see here in America, what's good for the goose is indeed
good for the gander.  That is, everyone violates traffic laws.

I have a stop sign less than 100 yards from where I'm typing this.
Only about half the motorists come to a complete stop.  I regularly
see motorists going through red lights.  That's most often by
squeezing through a fresh red before cross traffic starts up, but I
regularly see deliberate disobedience of a light that was long red
(including one memorable one by a cop - no siren or emergency lights;
he just didn't want to wait).  I see a majority of motorists exceeding
speed limits, and neglecting turn signals before turning or changing
lanes.  I regularly see motorists violating the laws in other ways as
well - the list could go on and on.

Bicyclists and pedestrians do the same, of course.  I believe the
major difference is not in frequency of disobedience, but in
consequences of disobedience.  Bicyclists and pedestrians almost never
injure anyone but themselves by their mistakes.  Motorists in America
routinely kill tens of thousands per year.

(However, that's does NOT give credence to the "bicycling is
dangerous!!!" nonsense.  Most of those killed by motorists are
motorists.  Only a very few are cyclists.)

In summary:  People will not be perfect in their obedience to laws,
whether they are on foot, on two wheels or on four (or more).  Yes,
the legal system does generally concentrate on motorist violations,
but that's only logical, since motorist offenses are the ones that do
almost all the harm.

- Frank Krygowski

I've thought we'd never agree on something.

What is it we disagree on? Oh, that riding a bike in traffic is safe.
But how can it be if drivers routinely ignore the laws, or simply
there are no good laws?

On Apr 21, 4:41 pm, ComandanteBanana <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From what I see here in America, what's good for the goose is indeed
good for the gander. That is, everyone violates traffic laws.

Quoted message said:

I have a stop sign less than 100 yards from where I'm typing this.
Only about half the motorists come to a complete stop. I regularly
see motorists going through red lights. That's most often by
squeezing through a fresh red before cross traffic starts up, but I
regularly see deliberate disobedience of a light that was long red
(including one memorable one by a cop - no siren or emergency lights;
he just didn't want to wait). I see a majority of motorists exceeding
speed limits, and neglecting turn signals before turning or changing
lanes. I regularly see motorists violating the laws in other ways as
well - the list could go on and on.

Quoted message said:

Bicyclists and pedestrians do the same, of course. I believe the
major difference is not in frequency of disobedience, but in
consequences of disobedience. Bicyclists and pedestrians almost never
injure anyone but themselves by their mistakes. Motorists in America
routinely kill tens of thousands per year.

Quoted message said:

(However, that's does NOT give credence to the "bicycling is
dangerous!!!" nonsense. Most of those killed by motorists are
motorists. Only a very few are cyclists.)

Quoted message said:

In summary: People will not be perfect in their obedience to laws,
whether they are on foot, on two wheels or on four (or more). Yes,
the legal system does generally concentrate on motorist violations,
but that's only logical, since motorist offenses are the ones that do
almost all the harm.

Quoted message said:

- Frank Krygowski

I've thought we'd never agree on something.

What is it we disagree on? Oh, that riding a bike in traffic is safe.
But how can it be if drivers routinely ignore the laws, or simply
there are no good laws?

You confuse disobedience with danger.

To evaluate disobedience of laws related to a given activity, you
observe people and see how often they disobey the laws applying to
that activity.

To evaluate the danger of an activity, you observe how much time
people spend in the activity, and you count how often they are killed
or seriously injured per unit time.

Bicyclists are very, very rarely killed or seriously injured. Again:
roughly fifteen MILLION miles of cycling per fatality. Alternately,
dedicated riders that do over 2500 miles per year, including commuting
in traffic, average 11 years between accidents that cost a mere $50.

Most people are pretty inept at cycling. But still, they don't get
seriously injured or killed. The most typical bike injury is a
skinned knee.

Even someone as fearful as you should be able to deal with the
occasional skinned knee. So again: quit whining.

- Frank Krygowski

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Ball said:

Tom Keats:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve Ball said:

Tom Keats:

> In article <[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] (Don Klipstein) writes:
>
>> The main offense of cyclists against cars is running red lights while
>> cars that have green lights have expectations of right-of-way.
>
> [censored]! Riders do /not/ suicidally barge into
> cross traffic. No rational person does.

He didn't say they did. Just that they stop bikes run far more red lights
than cars generally do.

If a vehicle operator goes through a red light at a minor
intersection when there's no cross-traffic, where's the harm?

I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, why not
motorists?

That is indeed what happens in real life.

Quoted message said:

I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
on then intersecting road, where's the harm?

Exactly. As long as drivers are as on-the-ball wrt
watching out for cross traffic as cyclists are.

Quoted message said:

Do you want to apply this to
speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)

Drivers' speeds don't really affect cyclists as much
as people would like to think. Yes, they do have an
effect, but we can deal with it.

Quoted message said:

We have fundamentally different views here in that I enjoy my car, whereas
you never want to own one, but try to make room for that not all motorists
are the enemy

It seems to me that drivers tend to view cyclists as
"the enemy" more than vice verso. In this very subthread,
cyclists are accused of "bullying" drivers. Go figure.
We and our 20-pound machines are out to make life miserable
for people in their 3-ton, rolling, climate-controlled
living rooms. Yeah, right.

Quoted message said:

but many, like a lot of people people, if you choose to make
them so, will accept the mantle.

This is just Usenet. In real life, people are slightly more
adept at getting along with each other.

I'm quite prepared to get along nicely with reasonable,
sociable people -- even on the streets & roads.

And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.

Many more drivers are.

cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:26:52 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.

Many more drivers are.

Your very one sided and biased opinion is noted.

Gunner

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Gunner Asch said:

[...]
You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Denial is a full-size SUV from GM, but they mistakenly transpose it as
"Denali".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gunner Asch said:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:26:52 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.

Many more drivers are.

Your very one sided and biased opinion is noted.

Gooood for you. Finish your dinner without getting
any on your clothes, and you'll get a nice dessert.

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gunner Asch said:

Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
riders. And you?

Goof.

My bikes /are/ my cars.

So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
with bike riders such as myself, eh?

If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You use question marks too much.

You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.

At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
I'm literate.

--
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:21:42 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gunner Asch said:

Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
riders. And you?

Goof.

My bikes /are/ my cars.

Bummer. Couldnt afford a motor vehicle eh?

Quoted message said:

So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
with bike riders such as myself, eh?

Urban and rural.

Quoted message said:

If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.

Why shouldnt I be?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You use question marks too much.

You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.

At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
I'm literate.

Spelling/punctuation flames are the last resort of the buffoon.

Gunner

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:58:51 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gunner Asch said:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:26:52 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.

Many more drivers are.

Your very one sided and biased opinion is noted.

Gooood for you. Finish your dinner without getting
any on your clothes, and you'll get a nice dessert.

ooooh! Coookieess!

Gunner

"Tom Keats" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gooood for you. Finish your dinner without getting
any on your clothes, and you'll get a nice dessert.

is he permitted to take his clothes off to accomplish the task?

mk5000

Percy Alleline: Merlin is the fruit of a long cultivation by certain people
in the circus. People who are bound to me as I am to them. People who are
not at all entertained by the failure rate about this place. There's been
too much blown, too much lost, too much wasted. Too many scandals. I've said
so many times, but I might as well have talked to the wind for all the heed
he paid me.
Control: "He" means me, George.
Percy Alleline: The ordinary principles of tradecraft and security have gone
to the wall in this service. It's all "divide and rule," stimulated from the
top.
Control: Me again.
Percy Alleline: We're losing our livelihood. Our self-respect. We've had
enough. We've had a bellyful, in fact.
Control: And like everybody who's ever had enough, he wants more! --Tiner
Tailor Soldier Spy

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gunner said:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:21:42 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gunner Asch said:

Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
riders. And you?

Goof.

My bikes /are/ my cars.

Bummer. Couldnt afford a motor vehicle eh?

Actually, yes, I easily could.
But I choose not to obtain or
maintain one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
with bike riders such as myself, eh?

Urban and rural.

And you gripe about being "bullied" by cyclists.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.

Why shouldnt I be?

Because everybody is going somewhere.
It's not a special thing.

Milage doesn't make the man.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>You use question marks too much.

You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.

At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
I'm literate.

Spelling/punctuation flames are the last resort of the buffoon.

That's what uneducated people like to say.
It assuages their feelings of inferiority.

If you've lost your Rig licence, perhaps SATs
will help you get it back.

I also recommend growing an heart. And maybe a spine,
if you feel so bullied by bicyclists.

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:22:28 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gunner said:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:21:42 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Gunner Asch <[email hidden]> writes:

> Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
> 65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
> riders. And you?

Goof.

My bikes /are/ my cars.

Bummer. Couldnt afford a motor vehicle eh?

Actually, yes, I easily could.
But I choose not to obtain or
maintain one.

So you cant come up with the money. Shrug..thats ok. And posting from
the library is ok too. No one slights you for that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
with bike riders such as myself, eh?

Urban and rural.

And you gripe about being "bullied" by cyclists.

On occasion, yes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.

Why shouldnt I be?

Because everybody is going somewhere.
It's not a special thing.

Yes and? Its not the trip, but the journey.

Quoted message said:

Milage doesn't make the man.

It sure indicates if someone is a safe and concientious driver.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>You use question marks too much.
>
> You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.

At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
I'm literate.

Spelling/punctuation flames are the last resort of the buffoon.

That's what uneducated people like to say.
It assuages their feelings of inferiority.

The inferior engage in spelling/punctuation flames. Thats all they
have. Shrug.
I take it you have never read the Mark Twain quote on the subject?

Quoted message said:

If you've lost your Rig licence, perhaps SATs
will help you get it back.

Which rig license might that be?

Quoted message said:

I also recommend growing an heart. And maybe a spine,
if you feel so bullied by bicyclists.

So then its ok to hit bicyclists when they intentionally ignore stop
lights, swerve in and out of truck traffic and so forth? I shouldnt
feel some trepidation about turning one into a bloody smear on the
pavement?

Son..if I didnt have a heart, if I didnt care about them, many would
be dead of their own stupidity.

Be thankful for people like me. Its the reason you are still alive.

Gunner

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Please be more cryptic. You are starting to make some sense to me.

Regards,

I looked it up and he is from SYRACUSE>..but he doesn;t say HAYAT or CAYAT
or anything like those upstate new yorkers.
It is just weird. the inflections. not the voice.
the way he would drag certain words out.

mk5000

Martine Love: I know you, Terry. And I know your mates. You've always been
looking for the big score. The one that makes sense of everything. I have it
for you.
Terry Leather: What?
Martine Love: A bank.
Terry Leather: A bank, as in rob? How would you know about a bank?
Martine Love: I've been seeing this guy, runs his own business - security
systems. Next month they're installing new alarms in a bank in Marylebone.
Seems like the trains have been setting off the tremble alarms in the vault,
and so they've had to turn them off. So for a week or so, they won't have
any.
Terry Leather: Now why would he tell you all this?
Martine Love: We were having a laugh about it. Imagine if half the villains
in London knew about this, he said. And I thought, I know half the villains
in London. I grew up with some of them. --The Bank Job

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard "I
didn't
say a bad job I said a [censored]-POOR job" stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard
stupid.
Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole
different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid.
Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed.
Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Quantum singularity
stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid
in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid.
Your
writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this
stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big
bang
ofstupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything
else
as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I'm sorry. I can't go
on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me.

you know what's really stupid Ed? Rerun flames

Gunner and I can possibly be the exact same degree of stupid to you

I guess you could say that you have now deemed Gunner stupider than you said
I was on 11/27/07 using the exact same series of really boring words, but
since Gunner is smarter than me this can't be correct

you need new material Ed

mk5000

"I believe in music the way some people believe in fairy tales"--August
Highmore