Training Peaks Virtual Coach

batman220 said:

...
85kg
250 FTP
1300 Max Watts...my limiters it determined my limiter to be Anaerobic Endurance. ...

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. With an FTP of ~2.9 W/kg I'd suggest your limiter is sustainable metabolic power or iow, aerobic fitness. Remember in addition to determining what power you can sustain for longer durations it's FTP or metabolic fitness that limits how frequently you can put out high power efforts and how quickly you'll recover so you can do it again.

Suffering in a fast crit and feeling the burn out of each turn can easily convince you that you need anaerobic work, but for someone with a sub 3 W/kg FTP I'd put your efforts into raising your sustainable power. This will help you in several ways. Steady pace in the pack will feel easier, jumps won't be as far above your sustainable power and feel easier, you'll burn more fat and less glycogen which increases endurance and as noted above you'll be able to jump hard more times in quick succession and recover more quickly so you can do it again. Sustainable power is the key here, not being able to suffer a few seconds longer or put out another 10 watts anaerobically with L6 work.

As rmur said recently in another thread "anaerobic capacity is the icing on the icing"

A lot of struggling racers think they need L6 (anaerobic tolerance) work when they really need to improve sustainable power first.

Good luck,
-Dave
P.S. Rereading your post it's really confusing, you talk about diagnosing your need for anaerobic fitness but have a goal of raising your FTP to 300 watts or iow, building aerobic fitness. My advice is the same work on the aerobic side first...

daveryanwyoming said:

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. -Dave

That is the point of my post Dave. I am not sure how the VIRTUAL COACH came to that conclusion, not myself, and what suggestions of types of workouts do people have to raise my FTP. Thanks.

batman220 said:

That is the point of my post Dave. I am not sure how the VIRTUAL COACH came to that conclusion, not myself, and what suggestions of types of workouts do people have to raise my FTP. Thanks.

Got it, sorry I didn't understand that you were given that evaluation and didn't come to it yourself, my error.

Yeah I'd scrap the advice of the Virtual Coach and work on your FTP with SST and L4 work. One day a week of sprints is still a good idea for a crit specialist but I'd focus most of your training week on SST/L4 work for a while and see if you can bring up your sustainable power.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Got it, sorry I didn't understand that you were given that evaluation and didn't come to it yourself, my error.

Yeah I'd scrap the advice of the Virtual Coach and work on your FTP with SST and L4 work. One day a week of sprints is still a good idea for a crit specialist but I'd focus most of your training week on SST/L4 work for a while and see if you can bring up your sustainable power.

-Dave

Man, I feel like such a fricking newb. What does SST stand for? and is there any places to look for different types of L4 workouts to use in the plan?

batman220 said:

Man, I feel like such a fricking newb. What does SST stand for? and is there any places to look for different types of L4 workouts to use in the plan?

Sweet Spot Training....

Here's some good links:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/
http://www.fascatcoaching.com/training_tips/SweetSpot_partdeux.html
http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspot.html
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t386984.html

And for a great online case study of how this stuff works and some motivation read the first few pages of this massive thread:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t314849.html

Good luck,
-Dave

If 2X20's, 3X20's are such a staple of a good training program why would the training peaks software not schedule them? I just did my first 2X20's at 90% of my indoor FTP numbers and it was a great workout. It is just interesting to me that on almost every post I see someone talking about this type of workout yet in 3 1/2 months using the virtual coach, not one has been schedule by the software.

I am going to change my program to doing 2X20's on Tues, Thurs and Saturday, easy rides on Wed, Fri; day off Monday, and a group ride or "ride how you feel" on Sunday. Any comments on that strategy? I need a very regimented program as I thrive of off doing exactly what my program has scheduled.

Glad to see the "It's Killing Me" thread being recommended by Dave, it's extremely informative, not to mention inspirational. Just have a pen and paper ready to take notes and concentrate on the first 30 or so pages. 🙂
Lou

upstateSC-rider said:

Glad to see the "It's Killing Me" thread being recommended by Dave, it's extremely informative, not to mention inspirational. Just have a pen and paper ready to take notes and concentrate on the first 30 or so pages. 🙂
Lou

That thread is ridiculous, 159 pages!! Great case study on working hard and what the body is capable of. If I can make anywhere near that kind of improvment over the course of 4 months I will be over 300W by mid season.

batman220 said:

Okay, I have signed up for Training Peaks and been using the program since January. Little background.
85kg
250 FTP up from 207 in December.
1300 Max Watts
Over 30" vertical leap.
Been training since January '08

Two things:
1. Through the process of determining my limiters it determined my limiter to be Anaerobic Endurance. I am doing crits and TT's and I assume it chose Anerobic End. because of the demands of a crit. It makes sense to me that the limiter should be Muscular Endurance which would be more effective at increasing my FTP to be able to sit in the group at a lower % of my FTP power. Correct? Better to have an FTP of 300 watts and have done a little less AE work, than more AE work and an FTP of 250?

2. The virtual coach is choosing the same workouts each week during a cycle, i.e. Crit sprints on Tuesday for 3 weeks of a build period. It seems to me that it would be more effective to vary the type of workout from week to week. You might be working on the same limiter but using different workouts each week. Also, the virtual coach has not scheduled any intervals longer than 8 minutes even when I change the limiter to Muscular Endurance. Again, it seems that I should be working at longer intervals than 8 minutes to be increasing my FTP for TT's and sitting in the pack on a crit. I read so much about people doing 2X20's 3X10's etc yet the virtual coach does't schedule any workouts of this type. Last night I reviewed the workouts it would prescribe all the way till the end of 2008 and not one of the workouts had an interval longer than 8 minutes. Thoughts?

My goal is to have an FTP of 300 watts and get down to 82kg. Thanks for the help.

One thing you must consider is that this is a non-personal based system that is taking your answers and applying a general training program for you. Crit training and TT training are two different animals. Looks like you've got sprinter power from the 1300 max watt number. What time frame are you basing the 250 FTP number on?

It sounds like you are using Friel, which Virtual coach and training peaks are based on, with Coggan terminology. Anaerobic endurance and muscular endurance are Friel terminology. FTP is Coggan.

Where Virtual coach lacks is it's personalization. It's a decent system for the self coached. The repitition of workouts, like you said on tuesdays, is for adaption. You can change your limiter if you feel that you are adapting and progressing.

A personalized approach takes your weaknesses and analyzes your data constently to develop you properly and within your schedule of adaption. There are many workouts that can specifically develop crit and TT racing form. It just depends on your goals.

Marc

marcaw said:

One thing you must consider is that this is a non-personal based system that is taking your answers and applying a general training program for you. Crit training and TT training are two different animals. Looks like you've got sprinter power from the 1300 max watt number. What time frame are you basing the 250 FTP number on?

It sounds like you are using Friel, which Virtual coach and training peaks are based on, with Coggan terminology. Anaerobic endurance and muscular endurance are Friel terminology. FTP is Coggan.

Where Virtual coach lacks is it's personalization. It's a decent system for the self coached. The repitition of workouts, like you said on tuesdays, is for adaption. You can change your limiter if you feel that you are adapting and progressing.

A personalized approach takes your weaknesses and analyzes your data constently to develop you properly and within your schedule of adaption. There are many workouts that can specifically develop crit and TT racing form. It just depends on your goals.

Marc

Basing 250 number on a 20 min test after a 5 min test with 10 min recovery in between. Might be a little high estimation. Goals at this point are to get a FT of 300 watts and be able to sit in and do decent in my first crits this year.

batman220 said:

Okay, I have signed up for Training Peaks and been using the program since January.

Therein lies the issue - using a "virtual coach" when perhaps a real one would make a far better call at understanding your specific needs and requirements and shape the training plan accordingly.

batman220 said:

...I am going to change my program to doing 2X20's on Tues, Thurs and Saturday, easy rides on Wed, Fri; day off Monday, and a group ride or "ride how you feel" on Sunday. Any comments on that strategy? ....

If you're targeting FTP and sustainable power you might consider one or more dedicated SST/Tempo days. IOW a day or even two that focuses on sustained efforts up to several hours long if you have the time at 75-85% of your current FTP. These aren't easy days but they shouldn't be killer days either.

Over the winter I got two days like this per week and at least one during racing season. They're a great way to build training base (CTL) and they still do a good job of raising FTP in a push-up approach. I find I can do these as the second or third day of a training block, even though the efforts are held longer (usually up to 90 minutes per individual effort but as part of a longer ride at least when outdoors) the intensity is just comfortably fast and not brutal.

For instance this winter I finished my midweek block with 90 minutes in this level on Thursdays and often finished the weekend block with 90 to 120 minutes in this level on Sundays. Things are changing with outdoor training, more high end work and racing but I did some variation on that pattern all winter with great results.

Basically the pure L4 work like your 2x20s are great but one or more mid intensity (SST/Tempo) days can really help you target both FTP and depth of your training base. You shouldn't need more than one or two easy/rest days in your weekly schedule.

Good luck,
-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

If you're targeting FTP and sustainable power you might consider one or more dedicated SST/Tempo days. IOW a day or even two that focuses on sustained efforts up to several hours long if you have the time at 75-85% of your current FTP. These aren't easy days but they shouldn't be killer days either.

Over the winter I got two days like this per week and at least one during racing season. They're a great way to build training base (CTL) and they still do a good job of raising FTP in a push-up approach. I find I can do these as the second or third day of a training block, even though the efforts are held longer (usually up to 90 minutes per individual effort but as part of a longer ride at least when outdoors) the intensity is just comfortably fast and not brutal.

For instance this winter I finished my midweek block with 90 minutes in this level on Thursdays and often finished the weekend block with 90 to 120 minutes in this level on Sundays. Things are changing with outdoor training, more high end work and racing but I did some variation on that pattern all winter with great results.

Basically the pure L4 work like your 2x20s are great but one or more mid intensity (SST/Tempo) days can really help you target both FTP and depth of your training base. You shouldn't need more than one or two easy/rest days in your weekly schedule.

Good luck,
-Dave

Dave you sure do a lot of posting. I really appreciate that. I have been reading a lot of posts over the last few days and should have been way more descriptive in my first post so here it is.

I over estimated FTP, it is 233 at this point based off of my 246W for a 20 min test per the protocol in Coggan/Hunter. This is my first year seriously training and I am targeting some TT's and trying not to get dropped in my first crit. It seems to me the best thing I can do is raise my FTP as high as I can, i.e. a lot of L4 and SST work and sprinkle in some L5,L6,L7 work to help with the surges of crits. I have been doing mostly longer rides with over 80% of my time below L3 since January of 2008 (this was based off of the Virtual Coach). My best 20 min power has gone from 207 to 246 in that time frame. This is my current schedule I devised for this week after reading more on this forum.

M Off
T 2x20 L4 95% FTP
W 2x30 SST 83-97% FTP
Th 2x45 low SST/L3
F Recovery Ride
S 2x20 or 3x20 at 90% FTP
Su 60-90min in solid L3

Pasted below are my PMC since I started using the powertap and a screen shot of the other charts on my home page.
[img]cyclingforums.comattachment.phpOpen ↗[/img]
[img]cyclingforums.comattachment.phpOpen ↗[/img]

This is my first year seriously training and I am targeting some TT's and trying not to get dropped in my first crit. It seems to me the best thing I can do is raise my FTP as high as I can, i.e. a lot of L4 and SST work and sprinkle in some L5,L6,L7 work to help with the surges of crits.

Seriously, those are some wise words. Ive been racing for 5 years, and training for longer, and before PMC could never quite figured out why or how i got "fit" at certain times and why i always bonked late may -early june. seems clear now...lack of real aerobic engine/CTL (what some call "base"😉, and lack of sustained FTP work. i just thought i was bad at doing hills or sprints, or whatever i happened to be working on racing at that point in the year so i just did more of that thing i was not good at. turns out, i just didn't have enough gas to make it to the end to contest/season the finish at the end.

i started following the SST/L4 program back in july last year after a bare bones spring season (son was born April). With a solid rebuild of "base" i was able to last straight through cross (mid december) and after a brief hiatus post cross season im as fit as i've ever been for april. FTP is just about where it was at peak of last year, working the CTL up to 90. With that as a foundation, and working in some specificity for crits, you should be able to get quite fit in order to "not get dropped" and i think you'll suprise yourself at how well you'll do. however, crits are funny creatures, so being the 'most' fit doesn't always get you the "W".

-Mike

Man, I posted what I thought was some good info for some help only one person responded 🙁 Maybe I am asking the wrong questions. Or maybe I am beyond help? Or maybe my post was so right on target that I didn't need a response😉

batman220 said:

Man, I posted what I thought was some good info for some help only one person responded 🙁 Maybe I am asking the wrong questions. Or maybe I am beyond help? Or maybe my post was so right on target that I didn't need a response😉

Yeah, general info questions typically get a lot of responses, when it moves to free coaching the responses often fall off.

FWIW, your CTL build looks very solid and smart, your weekly training mix looks reasonable. The biggest thing that jumped out at me was the very heavy bias towards L1, L2 work in your custom power distribution chart. Looks like a very heavy lean towards LSD work, don't expect to get fast or build a lot of sustainable power with so much of your work down in those levels.

I'm definitely in the SST/Lydiard camp when it comes to building core metabolic fitness and spend a lot more time up in Tempo and Threshold levels. Others feel differently, but since you asked for feedback I'd make sure you get more SST/L4 work in your mix.

Good luck,
-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Yeah, general info questions typically get a lot of responses, when it moves to free coaching the responses often fall off.

As you would expect.

Besides, before giving anyone specific coaching advice, I'd want to have a lot more background information on them first. That's doing one's due diligence, is common sense and a professional approach.

Alex Simmons said:

As you would expect.

Besides, before giving anyone specific coaching advice, I'd want to have a lot more background information on them first. That's doing one's due diligence, is common sense and a professional approach.

Absolutely!! Thanks for the comment.

This is one of my pet peeves about personal training or coaching and those who apply a one size fits all kind of philosophy or "it works for me so I can apply it on everyone else" thought.

There are a lot of factors involved starting with genetic inclinations to daily schedules among many other factors, which vary from person to person. There are general applications and general rules of physiology to apply and like Dave and others may suggest L4/SST in general for training, I am sure he, yourself and others who have good experience with coaching will take that general information and tweak it based on the many variables for that individual.

How many times have we seen the frustration of those on forums who may desire a certain response from a particular individual like Coogan only to get responses from many other individuals batting around ideas (of course the joy for discussion on forums). Yet we know that one the reasons there may not be a response other than the person being called out has not seen the question is they are silent because there is not enough information provided to make a solid response.

Well, thank for the responses. Not looking for free coaching, just looking for some help. A lot of people look to people with the same interests to get training ideas, commentary on their form, their set up, their strategy etc on forums all over the internet. Bicycling, motorcycle racing, volleyball, basketball, track and field, are all forums I have bounced ideas off other people to see what their opinion is. Most of the time they have much more experience than me and are very helpful. Maybe cycling is different in that there are a lot of coaches out there that don't like to give free advice. Although everyone who has responded to this thread has been very helpful and posts helpful advice on the forums daily.

If it came off like I am looking for free daily coaching from a professional coach that is not my intent and I apologize. I have seen other posts where it has been stated that it would be easier to help the poster if they attached their PMC chart so that is what I did. Anyway, if anyone has any other helpful advice that would be great. Thanks 🙂