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Mountain Biker Breaks Collarbone: Evolution at work!

Started by Mike Vandeman · · Last activity · 98 posts · 4,775 views

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Mountain Bikes
Published
27 April 2008
Last activity
1 June 2008
Original author
Mike Vandeman
Posts
98
Discussion status
Public discussion
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  1. Siskuwihane said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:53:06 -0700 (PDT), Ed Pirrero

    Quoted message said:

    On May 20, 5:34 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:

    > <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >post the link?

    Quoted message said:

    > Post the link, if it exists. Or are you LYING again?

    Quoted message said:

    Typing the name into Google works.

    It doesn't return just one link. I want that link, not a million
    others.

    A million? Let's not exagerate like you do on your webpages, it only
    brings up 554 in "images" and the picture in question is the first
    one, dummy.

    No, it doesn't. Are you talking about the same image we are?
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. email hidden said:

    I swear, I am two steps away from contacting this poor gentleman as it
    is obvious you are a stalker and sociopath. poor Mike Vanderman.
    Someday we can sit down and go through the prior directions we type in
    for you so you can use the web as a well informed user.

    Why are you afraid to provide the link? Afraid we'll find out you LIED
    again?
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  3. Mike Vandeman said:

    On Tue, 20 May 2008 21:03:51 -0700 (PDT), Ed Pirrero

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:53:06 -0700 (PDT), Ed Pirrero

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >On May 20, 5:34 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >> On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >> >post the link?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> Post the link, if it exists. Or are you LYING again?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Typing the name into Google works.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It doesn't return just one link. I want that link, not a million
    others.

    Quoted message said:

    Your lack of simple researching ability is not a surprise.  Odd how it
    just popped up for me, yet you were unable to follow simple
    directions.

    Quoted message said:

    Your inability to perform this very simple data collection task calls
    into serious question your ability to collect and evaluate *any* data.

    Why are you afraid to provide the link?

    Where did I claim to be afraid of providing the link?

    Quoted message said:

    Afraid we might find out you
    lied?

    "We" Who is "we"? The only "we" here is the folks who have
    successfully searched Google.

    Quoted message said:

    Again?

    Since you can't show any time I actually did lie, then someone else
    must be fabricating something. Hmmm....

    E.P.

  4. Mike Vandeman said:

    On Wed, 21 May 2008 03:48:46 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:53:06 -0700 (PDT), Ed Pirrero

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >On May 20, 5:34 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >> On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >> >post the link?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> Post the link, if it exists. Or are you LYING again?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Typing the name into Google works.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It doesn't return just one link. I want that link, not a million
    others.

    Quoted message said:

    A million? Let's not exagerate like you do on your webpages, it only
    brings up 554 in "images" and the picture in question is the first
    one, dummy.

    No, it doesn't.

    It sure does. I guess your research skills are lacking. Well, that's
    obvious from your website, but that's neither here nor there.

    E.P.

  5. Mike Vandeman said:

    On Wed, 21 May 2008 03:48:46 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:53:06 -0700 (PDT), Ed Pirrero

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >On May 20, 5:34 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >> On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >> >post the link?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> Post the link, if it exists. Or are you LYING again?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Typing the name into Google works.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It doesn't return just one link. I want that link, not a million
    others.

    Quoted message said:

    A million? Let's not exagerate like you do on your webpages, it only
    brings up 554 in "images" and the picture in question is the first
    one, dummy.

    No, it doesn't.

    Yes it does, idiot.

    Quoted message said:

    Are you talking about the same image we are?

    "We" as in everyone else but you, yes "we" are talking about the same
    image. Seems "you" are the only dummy who cannot use a search engine.

  6. Hmm...I just went through every step again and Mike VandeRman's image
    still comes up. If you can't talk yourself through those steps...then
    you're proving you're a mentally challenged or just totally non seeing
    the obvious...like a sociopathic personality such as yourself would
    do.

  7. Ed Pirrero said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Wed, 21 May 2008 03:48:46 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:

    On May 20, 11:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:53:06 -0700 (PDT), Ed Pirrero

    Quoted message said:

    > <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >On May 20, 5:34 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >> On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:

    > >> <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >> >post the link?

    Quoted message said:

    > >> Post the link, if it exists. Or are you LYING again?

    Quoted message said:

    > >Typing the name into Google works.

    Quoted message said:

    > It doesn't return just one link. I want that link, not a million
    > others.

    Quoted message said:

    A million? Let's not exagerate like you do on your webpages, it only
    brings up 554 in "images" and the picture in question is the first
    one, dummy.

    No, it doesn't.

    It sure does. I guess your research skills are lacking. Well, that's
    obvious from your website, but that's neither here nor there.

    Which picture are YOU talking about? Are you even following this
    conversation?
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  8. Siskuwihane said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Wed, 21 May 2008 03:48:46 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:

    On May 20, 11:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:53:06 -0700 (PDT), Ed Pirrero

    Quoted message said:

    > <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >On May 20, 5:34 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >> On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:

    > >> <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >> >post the link?

    Quoted message said:

    > >> Post the link, if it exists. Or are you LYING again?

    Quoted message said:

    > >Typing the name into Google works.

    Quoted message said:

    > It doesn't return just one link. I want that link, not a million
    > others.

    Quoted message said:

    A million? Let's not exagerate like you do on your webpages, it only
    brings up 554 in "images" and the picture in question is the first
    one, dummy.

    No, it doesn't.

    Yes it does, idiot.

    Quoted message said:

    Are you talking about the same image we are?

    "We" as in everyone else but you, yes "we" are talking about the same
    image. Seems "you" are the only dummy who cannot use a search engine.

    What picture are YOU talking about?
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  9. email hidden said:

    Hmm...I just went through every step again and Mike VandeRman's image
    still comes up. If you can't talk yourself through those steps...then
    you're proving you're a mentally challenged or just totally non seeing
    the obvious...like a sociopathic personality such as yourself would
    do.

    What are those steps? Why the secrecy? Afraid we'll find out you are
    LYING again?
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  10. Ed Pirrero said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Tue, 20 May 2008 21:03:51 -0700 (PDT), Ed Pirrero

    Quoted message said:

    On May 20, 8:29 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:53:06 -0700 (PDT), Ed Pirrero

    Quoted message said:

    > <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >On May 20, 5:34 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >> On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:

    > >> <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >> >post the link?

    Quoted message said:

    > >> Post the link, if it exists. Or are you LYING again?

    Quoted message said:

    > >Typing the name into Google works.

    Quoted message said:

    > It doesn't return just one link. I want that link, not a million
    > others.

    Quoted message said:

    Your lack of simple researching ability is not a surprise.  Odd how it
    just popped up for me, yet you were unable to follow simple
    directions.

    Quoted message said:

    Your inability to perform this very simple data collection task calls
    into serious question your ability to collect and evaluate *any* data.

    Why are you afraid to provide the link?

    Where did I claim to be afraid of providing the link?

    Right now, since you still haven't provided it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Afraid we might find out you
    lied?

    "We" Who is "we"? The only "we" here is the folks who have
    successfully searched Google.

    Quoted message said:

    Again?

    Since you can't show any time I actually did lie, then someone else
    must be fabricating something. Hmmm....

    E.P.


    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  11. Mike Vandeman said:

    On Fri, 23 May 2008 17:45:01 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:

    Hmm...I just went through every step again and Mike VandeRman's image
    still comes up. If you can't talk yourself through those steps...then
    you're proving you're a mentally challenged or just totally non seeing
    the obvious...like a sociopathic personality such as yourself would
    do.

    What are those steps? Why the secrecy? Afraid we'll find out you are
    LYING again?

    How long are you going to play dumb? Oh wait, maybe you're not
    playing, at your age it may be dementia.

  12. Siskuwihane said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Fri, 23 May 2008 17:45:01 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:

    Hmm...I just went through every step again and Mike VandeRman's image
    still comes up. If you can't talk yourself through those steps...then
    you're proving you're a mentally challenged or just totally non seeing
    the obvious...like a sociopathic personality such as yourself would
    do.

    What are those steps? Why the secrecy? Afraid we'll find out you are
    LYING again?

    How long are you going to play dumb? Oh wait, maybe you're not
    playing, at your age it may be dementia.

    I'm calling your bluff. Give us the link, or we will have to believe
    that you are LYING again.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  13. Mike Vandeman said:

    On Sat, 24 May 2008 04:44:38 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Fri, 23 May 2008 17:45:01 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >Hmm...I just went through every step again and Mike VandeRman's image
    >still comes up. If you can't talk yourself through those steps...then
    >you're proving you're a mentally challenged or just totally non seeing
    >the obvious...like a sociopathic personality such as yourself would
    >do.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What are those steps? Why the secrecy? Afraid we'll find out you are
    LYING again?

    Quoted message said:

    How long are you going to play dumb? Oh wait, maybe you're not
    playing, at your age it may be dementia.

    I'm calling your bluff. Give us the link, or we will have to believe
    that you are LYING again.

    "Us"? "We"? Get a grip, it's only "YOU" all by your lonesome, like at
    work, at home, in Berkeley or San Ramone.

  14. call your bluff? lies? You're an idiot. Here's the directions again.
    Try and focus.

    Go to www.google.com
    Enter in Mike VANDERMAN...notice spelling Tard. It's not all about
    you.
    Then click on image. and the first...very first picture is Mike
    VandeRman chasing a cyclist. That is what was said all along. No lies
    you ass from Berkeley. Or to make it real simple...this is the
    specific page.

    The original description still reads the same. Mike VandeRman...not
    you. Remember. Life is not all about you, you sociopath!

  15. Siskuwihane said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Sat, 24 May 2008 04:44:38 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:

    On May 24, 2:26 am, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > On Fri, 23 May 2008 17:45:01 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

    Quoted message said:

    > <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >Hmm...I just went through every step again and Mike VandeRman's image
    > >still comes up. If you can't talk yourself through those steps...then
    > >you're proving you're a mentally challenged or just totally non seeing
    > >the obvious...like a sociopathic personality such as yourself would
    > >do.

    Quoted message said:

    > What are those steps? Why the secrecy? Afraid we'll find out you are
    > LYING again?

    Quoted message said:

    How long are you going to play dumb? Oh wait, maybe you're not
    playing, at your age it may be dementia.

    I'm calling your bluff. Give us the link, or we will have to believe
    that you are LYING again.

    You are obviously LYING, or you would supply the link. What are you
    trying to hide?????
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  16. email hidden said:

    call your bluff? lies? You're an idiot. Here's the directions again.
    Try and focus.

    Go to www.google.com
    Enter in Mike VANDERMAN...notice spelling Tard. It's not all about
    you.
    Then click on image. and the first...very first picture is Mike
    VandeRman chasing a cyclist.

    Not every other time I searched. This is the first time it appeared.

    That is what was said all along. No lies

    Quoted message said:

    you ass from Berkeley. Or to make it real simple...this is the
    specific page.

    The original description still reads the same. Mike VandeRman...not
    you. Remember. Life is not all about you, you sociopath!

    YOU wrote "Mike VandeRman". That is the lie: it isn't me, nor someone
    called "Mike VandeRman". The original image didn't have my name
    attached, because, of course, it isn't me, NOR Mike VandeRman. You
    obviously have no idea who it is, and yet you LIED and said it's "Mike
    VandeRman". What's so hard to understand, LIAR?:

    http://bikehugger.com/images/blog/nugget-thumb.jpg

    Still waiting for your explanation of why you deliberately LIED:

    "I found this picture of Mike Vanderman protesting a bike race...he is
    trying to run down the biker...that crazy Mike!! He's always good for
    a laugh.

    bikehugger.comnugget thumb.jpg"

    You aren't going to live this down, until you admit your dishonesty.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  17. On May 24, 11:54 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    call your bluff? lies? You're an idiot. Here's the directions again.
    Try and focus.

    Go towww.google.com
    Enter in Mike VANDERMAN...notice spelling Tard. It's not all about
    you.
    Then click on image. and the first...very first picture is Mike
    VandeRman chasing a cyclist. That is what was said all along. No lies
    you ass from Berkeley. Or to make it real simple...this is the
    specific page.

    The original description still reads the same. Mike VandeRman...not
    you. Remember. Life is not all about you, you sociopath!

    I also found this...

    From: [email hidden] (Mike Vanderman)
    Subject: Why I'm such a jerk!
    Date: 1999/11/05
    Message-ID: <[email hidden]>#1/1
    X-Deja-AN: 545061768
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
    Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
    Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
    X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAjlU8ftoZzQWUWSFm6fJx/
    bEGOmsCFFw37Xh0LD7W2Nv3yKy04u8nn/cg
    Content-Disposition: Inline
    Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike

    To shed some light on why I don't like mountain bikers, I will give
    you
    a little background.
    As a geekish little troll, you understand it is next to impossible
    for
    me to get a woman. That led to my many excursions in the woods for
    some
    self gratification. Yes, just me and a copy of the Sierra Club
    newsletter! What bliss!
    It just so happened that one day as I was about to "arrive", I was
    surprised by a couple of those lying, SUV driving, mountain bikers.
    I got up and tried to run, but my pants were down around my
    ankles,causing me to trip and injuring my little "tinkey winkey".
    Those nasty mountain bikers did nothing but laugh at me while I lay
    half
    naked on the ground
    trying to get my newsletter untangled from my underwear. I swore I
    would seek revenge and do everything in my power to keep mountain bike
    off the trails.

    I may not have the sanctuary of the big woods, but I can find some
    pleasure on the back row of the local truckstop.

    Mike

    I am trying to create pure wanking habitat. Off limits to heterosexual
    activity. I spent the last 8 years fighting for the right hang out in
    rest areas after dark.

  18. That picture came up everytime I searched. You're just an idiot who is
    lying your way out of this...or so your sociopathic sense is telling
    you. The first time I searched was for Mike Vanderman. It wasn't
    searching for you...remember, it isn't all about you! And if I contact
    Mike Vanderman who is an avid archery expert in Iowa...I am sure he
    would argue with you regarding his existence. Before you bellow like a
    sissy girl for the link to this. Here [censored]:
    http://atlanticarchers.com/06032007.pdf
    Mike Vanderman also shot trial compound bows for Easton and is
    featured in several of their videos on YouTube.,

    So, yeah, he exists. You exist in your own mind as a hero...we see you
    as a factless troll. Regarding the letter above on why you hate
    MTBers...that is funny! and probably close to the truest fact about
    you ever, and found in the archives from long ago.

  19. Siskuwihane said:

    On May 24, 11:54 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    call your bluff? lies? You're an idiot. Here's the directions again.
    Try and focus.

    Go towww.google.com
    Enter in Mike VANDERMAN...notice spelling Tard. It's not all about
    you.
    Then click on image. and the first...very first picture is Mike
    VandeRman chasing a cyclist. That is what was said all along. No lies
    you ass from Berkeley. Or to make it real simple...this is the
    specific page.

    The original description still reads the same. Mike VandeRman...not
    you. Remember. Life is not all about you, you sociopath!

    I also found this...

    From: [email hidden] (Mike Vanderman)
    Subject: Why I'm such a jerk!
    Date: 1999/11/05
    Message-ID: <[email hidden]>#1/1
    X-Deja-AN: 545061768
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
    Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
    Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
    X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAjlU8ftoZzQWUWSFm6fJx/
    bEGOmsCFFw37Xh0LD7W2Nv3yKy04u8nn/cg
    Content-Disposition: Inline
    Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike

    To shed some light on why I don't like mountain bikers, I will give
    you
    a little background.
    As a geekish little troll, you understand it is next to impossible
    for
    me to get a woman. That led to my many excursions in the woods for
    some
    self gratification. Yes, just me and a copy of the Sierra Club
    newsletter! What bliss!
    It just so happened that one day as I was about to "arrive", I was
    surprised by a couple of those lying, SUV driving, mountain bikers.
    I got up and tried to run, but my pants were down around my
    ankles,causing me to trip and injuring my little "tinkey winkey".
    Those nasty mountain bikers did nothing but laugh at me while I lay
    half
    naked on the ground
    trying to get my newsletter untangled from my underwear. I swore I
    would seek revenge and do everything in my power to keep mountain bike
    off the trails.

    I may not have the sanctuary of the big woods, but I can find some
    pleasure on the back row of the local truckstop.

    Mike

    I am trying to create pure wanking habitat. Off limits to heterosexual
    activity. I spent the last 8 years fighting for the right hang out in
    rest areas after dark.

    Your point?
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  20. email hidden said:

    That picture came up everytime I searched. You're just an idiot who is
    lying your way out of this...or so your sociopathic sense is telling
    you. The first time I searched was for Mike Vanderman. It wasn't
    searching for you...remember, it isn't all about you! And if I contact
    Mike Vanderman who is an avid archery expert in Iowa...I am sure he
    would argue with you regarding his existence.

    But he's not the person in the photo you posted. So you LIED. I'm
    still waiting to hear why you LIED.

    Before you bellow like a

    Quoted message said:

    sissy girl for the link to this. Here [censored]:
    http://atlanticarchers.com/06032007.pdf
    Mike Vanderman also shot trial compound bows for Easton and is
    featured in several of their videos on YouTube.,

    So, yeah, he exists. You exist in your own mind as a hero...we see you
    as a factless troll. Regarding the letter above on why you hate
    MTBers...that is funny! and probably close to the truest fact about
    you ever, and found in the archives from long ago.

    Still waiting for your explanation of why you deliberately LIED:

    "I found this picture of Mike Vanderman protesting a bike race...he is
    trying to run down the biker...that crazy Mike!! He's always good for
    a laugh.

    bikehugger.comnugget thumb.jpg"

    You aren't going to live this down, until you admit your dishonesty.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

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