+1 on this one for me atleast. I have found that my increases are best when I do longer durations at a certain watts than trying to first increase watts...i.e. 250 watts this week for 20 minutes than next week increase to 30 minutes as opposed to 250 watts this week at 20 minutes and next week try 260 watts for 20 minutes.
I really feel if you read Tyson training as advised from rappdaddyo in the beginning was not about VO2 and short intervals at high watts but a gradual build. I believe that was where most of the gains were made and is much better than the short intervals, IMHO. Getting away from the core of power training...
The biggest problem with this approach is patience as when you download into your CP software, you never see those big gains....that can get frustrating.
-js
Steve_B said:
I wouldn't do this. Let the FTP number be a true reflection of what you can do for an hour. Simply try increasing the power that you do the threshold work at without modifying your FTP in WKO until you have evidence that your FTP has gone up. If you artificially inflate your FTP, then TSS, IF, CTL and all the other acronyms will be bogus.
Getting back to the original problem - something that I should have added before is that people often respond to duration increases or intensity increases to one degree or another. Many people find that they respond well if they just work a little harder (i.e., intensity increase). Through trial and error, I have found that I tend to make better gains through duration increases, so just plowing through at the same intensity but for longer efforts seems to give me better gains than increasing the intensity. I can't say for sure what type of responder you are but one easy way to get a grip on this is to try increasing the intensity and see what happens.
Just a quick update. The longer intervals seem to be helping me. Last week, I went out and did an hour interval at 250 followed the next day by a 2x20 day at 260+ for each. The second one was a bit of a struggle to keep the power up toward the end, but I got through.
Yesterday the legs felt great and I stretched the 20's to 25 at 260+, and ended up doing a third since I made a wrong turn and it was getting dark. Going to do some SST today then try to hit 2x30 at 260 next week. May be a bit aggressive even though I'm sure I could of easily done 30 yesterday.
Last week, I went out and did an hour interval at 250 followed the next day by a 2x20 day at 260+ for each. The second one was a bit of a struggle to keep the power up toward the end, but I got through.
A word of advice: I would do the more intense work earlier in the week (or earlier in the 2-3 day cycle). It often makes the latter days easier than if you had done it the other way.
Another update. I seem to have broken through the wall that was holding me back for all these months, and have been riding much stronger the past few weeks. About two weeks ago was the first time I did 2x20 at 260+, and yesterday I did them at 275 and 274. Saturday, I did a 31 minute time trial at 283 with a peak 20 at 294, although much of that was climbing which seems to be easier to make power for me than riding on the flats.
In any case, I noticed that my cadence was about 10 RPM lower (85 vs. the uslay 95ish) yesterday as I focused on raising the power a bit. I wonder is that common? Should I try to bring the cadence back up? And also, what do you guys do in the fall in terms of maintenance? I would obviously like to hold onto the gains I have gotten late in the season, but could use a break from all the structured training.
I know this is a pet peeve for someone on this board but we all do not have to be LIKE LANCE. Meaning just because he made famous the 90+ rpm riding that does not mean it works for everyone and will have the same results. Many very good riders use lower cadence.
Everyone is different and I have found what works best for me when it comes to cadence is what feels most natural. I do not try and force a higher cadence in a smaller gear if I feel more comfortable is a bigger gear lower cadence. Selecting gears and cadence for me has been one of the hardest things to learn which leads to the issue of proper pacing for a ride.
BTW, great work on the numbers, just remember what you got you there and switch back to a strategy of constant new highs and stick with longer intervals at a constant watts...also Steve B is dead on when it comes to scheduling IMHO.
-js
fezzy said:
Another update. I seem to have broken through the wall that was holding me back for all these months, and have been riding much stronger the past few weeks. About two weeks ago was the first time I did 2x20 at 260+, and yesterday I did them at 275 and 274. Saturday, I did a 31 minute time trial at 283 with a peak 20 at 294, although much of that was climbing which seems to be easier to make power for me than riding on the flats.
In any case, I noticed that my cadence was about 10 RPM lower (85 vs. the uslay 95ish) yesterday as I focused on raising the power a bit. I wonder is that common? Should I try to bring the cadence back up? And also, what do you guys do in the fall in terms of maintenance? I would obviously like to hold onto the gains I have gotten late in the season, but could use a break from all the structured training.
Question about breaking through. Im beginning to wonder if there may be a problem with my PowerTap, because I am riding well above what I could do a month ago. I replaced batteries right about a month ago as well. I wonder if that has somehow thrown things off. I do zero it regularly.
Anyway, yesterday was 2x25 at 275 and 274. Wednesday I didn't get a chance to ride as I was stuck working late. The first 25 felt pretty comfortable. The second was a struggle to maintain, but I was able to manage it. My question is when you guys have experienced threshold power breakthroughs, does it usually come in bursts like that? Im ridng about 15-20 watts more for about the same perceived effort as a month ago. And I had been stuck in that 250-260 range since the spring. This is my first year training, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it.
For me, it definitely comes in bursts and actuallu usually when I least expect it. But life will somtimes get in the way like now where I have been traveling fairly constantly for about a month now and I have not had the opportunity to put in the time I am used to which means I need to go through a couple weeks of "rebuild" process.
Do not be surprised or depressed if your numbers drop a little again for reasons like the above. Over the long run though you should see constant gains when you look at a year or more worth of data. I am now officially one year of WKO+ and PT. I can see and feel the overall gain.
I highly doubt your PT is messed up but if you feel the need find an ERG machine in a gym with a watts reading and give yourself a little test.
-js
fezzy said:
My question is when you guys have experienced threshold power breakthroughs, does it usually come in bursts like that? Im ridng about 15-20 watts more for about the same perceived effort as a month ago. And I had been stuck in that 250-260 range since the spring. This is my first year training, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it.
...I highly doubt your PT is messed up but if you feel the need find an ERG machine in a gym with a watts reading and give yourself a little test....
I agree with jsirabella, your PT is probably fine but if you're worried do a static torque test (stomp test): midweekclub.capowerFAQ.htmOpen ↗
It's pretty fast and easy to either hang a known weight off your crank, stand on one crank with a known body weight or use a tensioned scale to provide a known force on your cranks and then read the PT in torque mode. You can quickly check the accuracy of your PT and remove the doubt.
-Dave FWIW, my FTP increases come in jumps from time to time as well not a steady linear progression....
Thanks guys. The stomp test checked out. I did a few gear ratios using 50# weights, and at worst, it was about 3% low, and in many ratios it was exactly on. Good piece of mind. Now to get that FTP up to 300 for next year.
If you need to be accurate you could always do your TT on a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine...Where is my speed to power chart?🙂
fezzy said:
Question about breaking through. Im beginning to wonder if there may be a problem with my PowerTap, because I am riding well above what I could do a month ago. I replaced batteries right about a month ago as well. I wonder if that has somehow thrown things off. I do zero it regularly.
What is your definition for "exercise intensity"? Why would heart rate have to correlate with it in all cases to be considered correct? Isn't power also effected by those factors you mentioned?
[left]"One is that although HR is closely correlated with exercise intensity in a laboratory-type setting, this relationship is not nearly as strong while cycling outdoors (Fig. 1). This is due to the wide variety of factors that can influence HR during exercise. For example, altitude, heat, hypohydration/dehydration, recent illness or infection, lack of sleep, and large fluctuations in power output (e.g., in a group ride setting, or in hilly terrain) all tend to increase HR during exercise at a given intensity, whereas acute overreaching has the opposite effect. In addition, the relationship of HR to power can differ between individuals, even if normalized in some manner, e.g., to the HR measured during a time trial (TT), or to maximal HR measured at the end of an incremental exercise test."
The same as that of any other exercise physiologist: the absolute or relative external power output or pace, and/or the absolute or relative metabolic rate resulting therefrom.
From the above I think the answers to your other questions (which I snipped) should be obvious...
Personally, to break through a FTP rut I'll do a block of "over/unders". Let's say your FTP is 270; for 20 minutes alternate at 1min intervals doing 300w and then 240w. In the end you'll be around your target wattage for the rep.
I know the exercise physiologists/experts/forum gurus will chime in with the science/research papers/anecdotes as to why this works/doesn't work, but for me, IT WORKS - and that's all that matters to ME. May not work for you...use or don't use at your own peril😄 ...
Personally, to break through a FTP rut I'll do a block of "over/unders". Let's say your FTP is 270; for 20 minutes alternate at 1min intervals doing 300w and then 240w. In the end you'll be around your target wattage for the rep.
I know the exercise physiologists/experts/forum gurus will chime in with the science/research papers/anecdotes as to why this works/doesn't work, but for me, IT WORKS - and that's all that matters to ME. May not work for you...use at your risk😄 ...
I find this works well for me. It's a lot easier to suffer through 1 minute knowing that you have a break coming up. I think it provides a big psycological advantage. Bill Black's hour of power workout is similar. Ride just below FTP then surge once every 5 minutes or so.
I wouldn't do this. Let the FTP number be a true reflection of what you can do for an hour. Simply try increasing the power that you do the threshold work at without modifying your FTP in WKO until you have evidence that your FTP has gone up. If you artificially inflate your FTP, then TSS, IF, CTL and all the other acronyms will be bogus.
Getting back to the original problem - something that I should have added before is that people often respond to duration increases or intensity increases to one degree or another. Many people find that they respond well if they just work a little harder (i.e., intensity increase). Through trial and error, I have found that I tend to make better gains through duration increases, so just plowing through at the same intensity but for longer efforts seems to give me better gains than increasing the intensity. I can't say for sure what type of responder you are but one easy way to get a grip on this is to try increasing the intensity and see what happens.
OK lets say I've beaten the intensity horse to death so I don't have a 3 minute kick at the end of my 1 hour indoor ride should I tack on an extra 20 minutes SST to test this theory out would that be enough?
Personally, to break through a FTP rut I'll do a block of "over/unders". Let's say your FTP is 270; for 20 minutes alternate at 1min intervals doing 300w and then 240w. In the end you'll be around your target wattage for the rep.
I know the exercise physiologists/experts/forum gurus will chime in with the science/research papers/anecdotes as to why this works/doesn't work, but for me, IT WORKS - and that's all that matters to ME. May not work for you...use or don't use at your own peril😄 ...
Over/unders are great and are certainly a great change from a steady diet of 2 x 20s at a constant pace. Unlike Tony, who is really targeting a 100% FTP average for the interval, I would still try and keep the average within the sweet spot. For example, if my FTP is 270, I would typically ride my 2 x 20s@ at SST (85-90%), or 230-243. So if I am doing an over/under, I typically ride a 20 minute interval broken down at 2 min under@ 230 and a 1 min over at 110% 297-300. I find that 2 x 20s @100% FTP, average or steady state are almost a recipe for burnout, if you are just a recreational rider like me. If you find that you can consistently average 2 x 20s at 100% for a few weeks, then you probably need to do a one hour test and adjust your FTP. If I recall, Tony is more of a racer than me, so it may very well work for riders at that level. I do another over/under routine which is 1 minute over "all out" and 2 minute under @ 90% but I can usually only sustain this for about a 12 minute set, and I will do 2 sets total. If you can do this for a full 21 minute set than you are a better man than me.
🙂 Well, I am what I am. It's not so much being a "convert" as it is figuring out what really works for me.
This should be the topic of a totally different thread and maybe I'll write it up in the coming months when I have more time. I found some interesting (to me) stuff about myself after 5.5 years of using a power meter and analysing the data. One is that duration works much better for me. There's more to it than just that though. It's what training at a certain duration does for other durations. Some of the outcomes are possibly a little unique to me. I don't know.
should I tack on an extra 20 minutes SST to test this theory out would that be enough?
Sounds like a good place to start. You could also do 3x20's @ 90% instead of 2 x 20's at FTP (or whatever). Something like that. However, even a 25% increase in duration might be enough to show something.
Question regarding periodization. Do you guys back down the training intensity in the fall, or just try to keep building the threshold power throughout the year while keeping enough variety to not get bored?
I am thinking of switching to a bit more lifting just because I like do it, but keeping up the L4 efforts about 3 times a week. Probably not as much time in the saddle though as day light gets shorter and shorter. I would like to come into next season with a 20 minute power of around 300, so about 25 watts to go. Just need to find the smartest way to get there.
