Threshold Power Intervals on the trainer

Antonio, you're on the right track in my opinion.

Maybe one last thing I'd like to add.

Earlier in the thread, Dr.Coggan made a smart and interesting reference to how swimmers make extensive use of short intervals for developing most fitness components. This is very true. Even level 2 is often trained on intervals. (for what it's worth, I don't call these pure intervals but rather broken distances. 60x100m isn't seen as 60 bouts of 100m, but rather like 6km broken into chunks of 100m). Typical rest would be 5s or less in L2 context, 5-10s for L3, and I'd say 20s or less for L4.

One thing I'd like to add is that while they train on short intervals, these are not entirely "Time based". Like Dr.Coggan said, the working portion of these intervals is "Distance based".

In cycling world, that could translate into something like this:
20 x 2kilo (wind trainer kilos here) off 3min
which means that every 3 minute you need to book 2 kilos. If you can book 'em in 2min45sec, then that leaves you with 15sec rest.

If your wind trainer/computer allows for easily resetting distance then you may try both approaches (pure time based or distance based) and stick what you like best.

SolarEnergy said:

Antonio, you're on the right track in my opinion.

Maybe one last thing I'd like to add.

Earlier in the thread, Dr.Coggan made a smart and interesting reference to how swimmers make extensive use of short intervals for developing most fitness components. This is very true. Even level 2 is often trained on intervals. (for what it's worth, I don't call these pure intervals but rather broken distances. 60x100m isn't seen as 60 bouts of 100m, but rather like 6km broken into chunks of 100m). Typical rest would be 5s or less in L2 context, 5-10s for L3, and I'd say 20s or less for L4.

One thing I'd like to add is that while they train on short intervals, these are not entirely "Time based". Like Dr.Coggan said, the working portion of these intervals is "Distance based".

In cycling world, that could translate into something like this:
20 x 2kilo (wind trainer kilos here) off 3min
which means that every 3 minute you need to book 2 kilos. If you can book 'em in 2min45sec, then that leaves you with 15sec rest.

If your wind trainer/computer allows for easily resetting distance then you may try both approaches (pure time based or distance based) and stick what you like best.

But we have to consider that the swimmers are not able to mesure the power output of that moment. I mean, on the cyclism we have the opportunity with some devices to mesure exactly how many power and energy we are producing. This devices let us to know exactly phisiologically which level we are training. For istance, if for the FTP the minimum is 20 minutes of workout we cannot base it on the distance but we are obliged to use the time, because to train the level X we need at least Y number of minutes at the Z Watt.

If my ideas are wrong i'll be thankful if you explain me better what i didn't understud.

acoggan said:

Sure. The time constant for changes in metabolism is ~30 s, so as long as you keep the breaks shorter than that it is as if your body doesn't even know that you have stopped exercising. You do, though, have to rely on the overall average power (or the normalized power) to measure the intensity (which means working a bit harder during the 'on' periods if you take frequent breaks).

A question for you. If the time costant for changes in metabolism is around 30 seconds, a VO2Max work has the same value if i do intevals like 10 x 30 seconds at 100% of Vo2max with a recover of 30 seconds? Working on this way (recovery of 30 sec) if my interpretation is good the body doesnt understand the change of metabolism right?

Atsic said:

A question for you. If the time costant for changes in metabolism is around 30 seconds, a VO2Max work has the same value if i do intevals like 10 x 30 seconds at 100% of Vo2max with a recover of 30 seconds? Working on this way (recovery of 30 sec) if my interpretation is good the body doesnt understand the change of metabolism right?

You've missed the part about training stress being the average power of such a set. Your body wouldn't know you've completely stopped exercising with 30 second rests, but your training stress would be half of your typical VO2 Max power if you go 30 seconds at that power and rest for 30 seconds.

To make that work you'll need to go twice your normal VO2 Max training power for 30 seconds, then rest for 30 seconds or some more reasonable combination that averages to the appropriate power. Thirty seconds is also on the long side of rests as it represents one full half life of adaptation and you've partially recovered. Try to keep the rests shorter than a full half life, try 10 to 15 seconds to minimize the recovery.

-Dave

Atsic said:

For istance, if for the FTP the minimum is 20 minutes of workout we cannot base it on the distance but we are obliged to use the time, because to train the level X we need at least Y number of minutes at the Z Watt.

Antonio, I never actually do 20min intervals outdoor. I do 3 laps of 4.5k on a racing circuit. These laps take roughly 20 min to complete. My powertap records the result. That circuit has some characteristics (a little slope here, a 90deg turn there etc). Some find it easier to sustain a demanding effort by using these "references" as a motivating factor.

For instance, during these intervals my inner voice goes like: ok now I am very tired, but hey, the "big three" is coming, after that it's the little bridge followed by the 2k stretch and then I am done. So let us not slow down. And if by any chance I meet a pace line of riders going about my speed or slightly over, then forget it. I go after them just like a dog and probably record a great result.

With duration based intervals, my inner voice goes like: what?? only 8min done and 12 to go?? (then what felt like 5 min after) what?? only 9min done 11 to go??

Since you're training with a Fortius, finding for instance a path (you have so many to choose from) that takes whatever the duration you need to book might feel like time goes quicker, and you might actually be able to complete those long intervals.

As for swimmers, (for what it's worth for this discussion) power based measurement would not be as useful as some might think. It doesn't factor in economy. Matter of fact, the number one reason why swimmers break their long distances into shorter chunks is probably to preserve optimal economy, which can only be monitored using speed based monitoring (to stay practical). Therefore most coaches use m/sec to calibrate swim workouts. Conversion from m/sec to power would only be required if need be to monitor multi-sport / cross-training activities using Training Peaks's wko+ for instance.

acoggan said:

Sure. The time constant for changes in metabolism is ~30 s, so as long as you keep the breaks shorter than that it is as if your body doesn't even know that you have stopped exercising. You do, though, have to rely on the overall average power (or the normalized power) to measure the intensity (which means working a bit harder during the 'on' periods if you take frequent breaks).

Breaks are evil - once you start 'em, you're on a slippery slope :p

(then again, I used to be known as 1-speed. Now I'm not sure what they call me behind my back. Besides FAT! :p )

rmur17 said:

Breaks are evil - once you start 'em, you're on a slippery slope :p

(then again, I used to be known as 1-speed. Now I'm not sure what they call me behind my back. Besides FAT! :p )

Words of wisdom 😄

I use all the tricks on a trainer including wireless headphones for the tv, big fan etc.. I have noted that when I get tired and bored on the trainer I stop.
I have also noted that when I get tired riding on the road I could be as much as 20 miles from home and therein lies my motivation.

SolarEnergy said:

Antonio, I never actually do 20min intervals outdoor. I do 3 laps of 4.5k on a racing circuit. These laps take roughly 20 min to complete. My powertap records the result. That circuit has some characteristics (a little slope here, a 90deg turn there etc). Some find it easier to sustain a demanding effort by using these "references" as a motivating factor.

For instance, during these intervals my inner voice goes like: ok now I am very tired, but hey, the "big three" is coming, after that it's the little bridge followed by the 2k stretch and then I am done. So let us not slow down. And if by any chance I meet a pace line of riders going about my speed or slightly over, then forget it. I go after them just like a dog and probably record a great result.

With duration based intervals, my inner voice goes like: what?? only 8min done and 12 to go?? (then what felt like 5 min after) what?? only 9min done 11 to go??

Since you're training with a Fortius, finding for instance a path (you have so many to choose from) that takes whatever the duration you need to book might feel like time goes quicker, and you might actually be able to complete those long intervals.

As for swimmers, (for what it's worth for this discussion) power based measurement would not be as useful as some might think. It doesn't factor in economy. Matter of fact, the number one reason why swimmers break their long distances into shorter chunks is probably to preserve optimal economy, which can only be monitored using speed based monitoring (to stay practical). Therefore most coaches use m/sec to calibrate swim workouts. Conversion from m/sec to power would only be required if need be to monitor multi-sport / cross-training activities using Training Peaks's wko+ for instance.

Ok ok, now i got it! We were talking about 2 different things, me about what is the best way to make a "perfect" workout, and you what pratically do our best when we're on the bike. I'm agree with you anyway.
I'm using a lot the catalyst because with it i can easly control all the parameters, but you just gave me another idea. It can be really useful to use also the 3d part of the fortius, and I mean the virtual reality that can help everybody to sustain better the strong effort of a 20 minutes work!

jhuskey said:

I use all the tricks on a trainer including wireless headphones for the tv, big fan etc.. I have noted that when I get tired and bored on the trainer I stop.
I have also noted that when I get tired riding on the road I could be as much as 20 miles from home and therein lies my motivation.

It's normal i think. for everybody is like this. For me for istance, when i have to do the distance if i'm not alone and in a group ride the time is flying. Boring like the trainer there is nothing else!

Atsic said:

It can be really useful to use also the 3d part of the fortius, and I mean the virtual reality that can help everybody to sustain better the strong effort of a 20 minutes work!

That is exactly what I meant.

It may be little more work you on the planning side, you know, to try few different paths (virtual reality circuits) and see which one brings you:
- What you need physiologically speaking
- In a "format" that is motivating

But that alone may be sufficient to allow you to perform decent 20min intervals maybe once a week, who knows...

Enjoy!

rmur17 said:

Breaks are evil - once you start 'em, you're on a slippery slope :p

(then again, I used to be known as 1-speed. Now I'm not sure what they call me behind my back. Besides FAT! :p )

Yeah, but when that 1-speed is done at 400+ watts you really don't need too many other "speeds." :p

swampy1970 said:

Yeah, but when that 1-speed is done at 400+ watts you really don't need too many other "speeds." :p

Well you do need to get a gap first -- then the '400W' can be partly real and partly psychological :p . IOW, if you're a proven TT specialist, that can help discourage chasing once you have that gap established.

its a little counter intuitive but doing threshold work isn't the best way to imporove your threshold. they best way to do it is long rides.

Back in base phase i imporved my threshold 25 watts doing nothing but base work. Seriously, my heart rate didn't go over 140bpm for 3 months (except once a month to test threshold)
Its kind of an old school method, but threshold work should come after you've developed a base. Not just randomly when you want to do them. If you don't have a large base, don't do threshold stuff. While you will see some improvements, they will not be as great as if you have a solid base.

Ok so you don't want to spend 3+ hours on the trainer. The 2nd best way to improve FTP...

do 'sweet spot' intervals(solarEnergy alluded to this). In other words ride at 87-93% of your functional threshold for 12-15mins. Do this at the beginning of your ride, the middle of your ride, and the very end of your ride. So 3 times over the course of 2 hours or however long you choose to ride. The rest of the time ride at base wattage/HR. This tricks your body into thinking that you've been training longer they you actually have been. Its good, but not as good as just riding 4 hours. 4 hours is more solid, But i understand that 4 hours on a bike isn;t for everyone.

Another benefit of doing just subthreshold work is that you don't incure the recovery cost of threshold work. So you can do 'sweet spot' stuff 4 or 5 times a week whereas If you'r actually doing threshold intervals correctly, you should probably only do them 2x a week before it gets counterproductive

also as far as bordom goes, noone really talked about cadence. This is one of my favorite things to keep me less bored on a long trainer ride. 1min highcadence/1 min lowcadence, 15 mins high/15 mins low cadence. 2 mins high/5 mins low. It doesn't really matter how long you do of each, but it help to pass the time.
hope this helps.

frenchcycling said:

its a little counter intuitive but doing threshold work isn't the best way to imporove your threshold. they best way to do it is long rides.

Back in base phase i imporved my threshold 25 watts doing nothing but base work. Seriously, my heart rate didn't go over 140bpm for 3 months (except once a month to test threshold)
Its kind of an old school method, but threshold work should come after you've developed a base. Not just randomly when you want to do them. If you don't have a large base, don't do threshold stuff. You will get better at suffering i suppose, but you prob won't get much faster.

Ok so you don't want to spend 3+ hours on the trainer. The 2nd best way to improve FTP...

do 'sweet spot' intervals. In other words ride at 87-93% of your functional threshold for 12-15mins. Do this at the beginning of your ride, the middle of your ride, and the very end of your ride. So 3 times over the course of 2 hours or however long you choose to ride. The rest of the time ride at base wattage/HR. This tricks your body into thinking that you've been training longer they you actually have been. Its good, but not as good as just riding 4 hours. 4 hours is more solid, But i understand that 4 hours on a bike isn;t for everyone.
Another benefit of doing just subthreshold work is that you don't incure the recovery cost of threshold work. So you can do 'sweet spot' stuff 4 or 5 times a week whereas If you'r actually doing threshold intervals correctly, you should probably only do them 2x a week.

hope this helps.

I know all what you wrote and i'm agree with you. My problem is simply one, i cannot train like a normal guy, i have not time to do it ( i study medicine and is not so easy to find free time ;-) ), and i cannot do also of course long ride. So i prefer to focus my training plan on short but intense training session, specific for the period.

As i wrote before i know perfectly that is fundamental the periodisation of the season, that's why i already did some long and boring weeks of training where i focused all my attention only to the endurance level. After this i passed to work on the tempo ride increasing day by day the period to the "sweet spot", and now after few month i'm working on the threshold and Vo2 Max.

In 2 weeks i'll finish my session of exams and i will be more free to train and also to add long rides to my sheulde, expecially in the recovery rides.

I worked till now on this way and i can assure you (if you don't trust me i can send my files) that my threshold is growing up or at least growed up and not of 25 W even if i have to say that my starting point was of an unterained guy, was 200 W now is 265 W. I stopped for 1 year completely my activity, but i did 4 years of races in criterium with each year 17.000 km per year approximatevely.

Hope to be in the right way. If i made mistake please tell me!

Antonio

frenchcycling said:

its a little counter intuitive but doing threshold work isn't the best way to imporove your threshold. they best way to do it is long rides.

Back in base phase i imporved my threshold 25 watts doing nothing but base work. Seriously, my heart rate didn't go over 140bpm for 3 months (except once a month to test threshold)
Its kind of an old school method, but threshold work should come after you've developed a base. Not just randomly when you want to do them. If you don't have a large base, don't do threshold stuff. While you will see some improvements, they will not be as great as if you have a solid base.

I'm hiding behind my chair after reading this one. Stating that threshold work isn't the best way to improve threshold sounds a little, err, wobbly to me.

I'm sure more learned minds than my own will chime in at greater length, but as far as I'm aware: threshold power determines fitness level, threshold work improves threshold power therefore threshold work makes you go faster. SST helps as well, but tootling along at a low heart rate (if anybody seriously into this kind of work still monitors HR) seems a waste of time.

There appears to be a clash of old school vs new school in this idea.

I just have a chortle when I remember how Damiano Cunego announced he thought PMs were a waste of time and he's going back to the old methods. Then he sits and watches PM users dance away from him on stage-race climbs...

Early season rides are about long rolling training rides and as the season progresses you move on to faster paces maximum O2 deficiency paces.
Of course opinions like abilities vary.

jhuskey said:

Early season rides are about long rolling training rides and as the season progresses you move on to faster paces maximum O2 deficiency paces.
Of course opinions like abilities vary.

I've wasted many hours on day-long rides in my youth so I know all about the long rides way of thinking.

Now I go no further than 100 hard kilometres and was in with a shout in a 135km handicap race so it's not about how far you go, it's about what level of power you can put out.

I don't have time to put in huge distances but what I do manage keeps me up with blokes doing way more than me.

Like you say, opinions and abilities vary. But I'm sure being more efficient in training is something we can all benefit from.

grahamspringett said:

I just have a chortle when I remember how Damiano Cunego announced he thought PMs were a waste of time and he's going back to the old methods. Then he sits and watches PM users dance away from him on stage-race climbs...

Yes l remember reading that after l had picked him for a top 10 finish in the tour, lol... what a tool. Did he go back to training with a pm?

That 135km race has been moved forward by 3mths this year
ya gunna have another crack?

grahamspringett said:

I've wasted many hours on day-long rides in my youth so I know all about the long rides way of thinking.
.

If you did them properly, and they were well structured into your program then you would not have been wasting time🙂.