Riding position of lower back

I've found Steve Hogg's positioning guidance to be helpful in addressing my lower back issues:
cyclefitcentre further reading
and
The Anatomy Of Bike Position | Cyclingnews.com

Dave

dkrenik said:

I've found Steve Hogg's positioning guidance to be helpful in addressing my lower back issues:
cyclefitcentre further reading
and
The Anatomy Of Bike Position | Cyclingnews.com

Dave

Those links look great, looks like lots of good info in there, cheers.

My back muscles where sore the other day and I should have rested that day like I had planned. (must have the bug) My backs still sore today and i'll be taking a week off which is due anyway so hopefully I'll be good to get back on the same bike.

I've had psoas issues (amongst other issues :p) for years. Regular stretching works well but several times I year I gotta go see someone who's worldly wise at 'releasing' it.

As far as the stretches go, I do the bottom one of the three shown in this link. I don't get that position - ie so far stretched out and leaning so far back but it's getting there.

The Psoas - Stretching

If I don't do them then I feel like cr@p on the bike after a month or so following the last physio visit.

When I'm training I stretch every day... I have too. I have the natural flexibility of granite.

Getting a good position on the bike isn't something that happens overnight. If you're young then you're pretty much still bombproof and can adapt to almost any position... but if you're the wrong side of 30 then things are going to be different. You may spent too much time sitting or standing in one place during the working day and that isn't going to do you any favours.

Just like you need to work on your training to increase performance you also need to work on your position too. A bike doesn't offer a natural position to sit on so therefore it's naturally going to be somewhat uncomfortable after a while when you first start. Those articles posted by Dave are a good place to start. Hogg's view on bike positioning has mirrored the evolution of my bike position over the last 20 something years...

One thing you can do to help your back is increase your core strength. Fortunately you don't need a gym to work on your core strength, as it can be done at home. If you just google the phrase, you'll find lots of info. Also asking a physical therapist would likely land you all kinds of exercises. Increased core strength will go a long way toward helping you on the bike.

swampy1970 said:

I've had psoas issues (amongst other issues :p) for years. Regular stretching works well but several times I year I gotta go see someone who's worldly wise at 'releasing' it.

As far as the stretches go, I do the bottom one of the three shown in this link. I don't get that position - ie so far stretched out and leaning so far back but it's getting there.

The Psoas - Stretching

If I don't do them then I feel like cr@p on the bike after a month or so following the last physio visit.

When I'm training I stretch every day... I have too. I have the natural flexibility of granite.

Getting a good position on the bike isn't something that happens overnight. If you're young then you're pretty much still bombproof and can adapt to almost any position... but if you're the wrong side of 30 then things are going to be different. You may spent too much time sitting or standing in one place during the working day and that isn't going to do you any favours.

Just like you need to work on your training to increase performance you also need to work on your position too. A bike doesn't offer a natural position to sit on so therefore it's naturally going to be somewhat uncomfortable after a while when you first start. Those articles posted by Dave are a good place to start. Hogg's view on bike positioning has mirrored the evolution of my bike position over the last 20 something years...

Those psos stretches look great. I'll be sure to use those 2-3 times a day, how long do you hold each side ?

105k said:

...Are you guys resting your back or holding it straight and tight. ...

Lot's of good advice above, but in addition to the flexibility and fit questions there's also some subtle riding 'technique' in terms of how you sit on the bike and ride and it typically takes some conscious thought for beginners.

Basically your lower back will flatten out in a comfortable way that doesn't require tense muscles or much core strength to maintain if you also rotate your entire pelvic girdle forward in the saddle. You can think of this as pelvic rotation or sticking your butt out a bit but one way or the other you'll comfortably lose that break in the lower back and with it a lot of discomfort if you can teach yourself to ride rocked forward in the saddle instead of straight upright with an associated 'break' in your lower back.

I remember when this stuff was explicitly taught to newer riders and have heard old school stories of coaches putting straight thin boards up the back of young cyclist's jersey's as a reminder to flatten out their backs which more or less forces them to rock their pelvic girdles forward (moving the actual hip joints up and back).

Time trial bike fit is an extreme version of this with your 'taint' pressed hard into the nose of the saddle but on the road bike it's more neutral and relaxed.

Anyway, just like relaxing your elbows and riding with a slight soft elbow bend usually takes some conscious thought for beginners (along with a good bike fit) so does learning to ride most of the time with the pelvic rocked forward which leads to a straight back. If you do it right (and your bike is fitted for this riding position) it doesn't take much if any back strength to ride comfortably with a flat back.

Look at some photos of good riders riding the drops and brake hoods (folks tend to ride more upright on the bar tops) and notice the lack of a 'break' in the lower back and think about why it is you can often tell a serious rider just by how they sit on the bike. Then practice and try to find that comfortable place then frequently remind yourself to ride that way while out on the road till it becomes second nature.

Good luck,
-Dave

105k said:

Those psos stretches look great. I'll be sure to use those 2-3 times a day, how long do you hold each side ?

About 1 to 2 minutes. The key for me isn't that you stretch so much that you 'feel the stretch', it's that you relax and slowly end up going as far as you can. Slow deep breathing is key - you'll know what I mean when you manage to relax and are holding a deep stretch.

daveryanwyoming said:

Basically your lower back will flatten out in a comfortable way that doesn't require tense muscles or much core strength to maintain if you also rotate your entire pelvic girdle forward in the saddle. You can think of this as pelvic rotation or sticking your butt out a bit but one way or the other you'll comfortably lose that break in the lower back and with it a lot of discomfort if you can teach yourself to ride rocked forward in the saddle instead of straight upright with an associated 'break' in your lower back.

Excellent advice, just had one of my riders in to a Physiotherapist with an acute back injury and this was the suggestion to alleviate any further issues.

swampy1970 said:

I

As far as the stretches go, I do the bottom one of the three shown in this link. I don't get that position - ie so far stretched out and leaning so far back but it's getting there.

The Psoas - Stretching

I have to do those exercises everyday as part of the recovery from the herniated disc. I did not know that they stretch that muscle but instead I use them to move the herniation off the nerve. The technique is called Mckenzie technique and the exercises are deviations on the cobra/mini-cobra. It may be best to start with a mini-cobra not to put too much pressure on the spine and work up.

-js

daveryanwyoming said:

Basically your lower back will flatten out in a comfortable way that doesn't require tense muscles or much core strength to maintain if you also rotate your entire pelvic girdle forward in the saddle. You can think of this as pelvic rotation or sticking your butt out a bit but one way or the other you'll comfortably lose that break in the lower back and with it a lot of discomfort if you can teach yourself to ride rocked forward in the saddle instead of straight upright with an associated 'break' in your lower back.

Dave do you have an image you can show me of this position? I would think of you move your pelvis forward doesn't your butt go forward? I may be misunderstanding.

This is real important to me as today I actually did 20 minutes on the bike as a break from the treadmill to see how my legs and back feel. Trying to find the best position to slowly work up to an hour without much discomfort.

-js

Anyway, just like relaxing your elbows and riding with a slight soft elbow bend usually takes some conscious thought for beginners (along with a good bike fit) so does learning to ride most of the time with the pelvic rocked forward which leads to a straight back. If you do it right (and your bike is fitted for this riding position) it doesn't take much if any back strength to ride comfortably with a flat back.

[/QUOTE]

With your elbows relaxed and a flat back on your road bike, what is supporting all the upper body weight and what supplies the pedalling resistance ? Would a urinary medical expert recommend that swivelled round position perched on the nose of your saddle for a 25 or 50 mile TT ?

Quoted post said:

With your elbows relaxed and a flat back on your road bike, what is supporting all the upper body weight and what supplies the pedalling resistance ? Would a urinary medical expert recommend that swivelled round position perched on the nose of your saddle for a 25 or 50 mile TT ?

I would think any competent urologist would say that a TT is short enough and done infrequently enough that it doesn't matter. I think he'd suggest that if you worried, don't do TT's.

I'm not a physiologist, so I can't explain exactly why a flat back eases the load on the arms, but I know that it works for me. For reference, I've had interesting fractures to my lower back and to my neck, and as a result, my back and neck are really good at letting me know when my position is bad.

jsirabella said:

Dave do you have an image you can show me of this position? I would think of you move your pelvis forward doesn't your butt go forward? I may be misunderstanding. ...

Depends on what you mean by 'forward' rocking the top of your pelvis forward rocks the bottom which includes your actual hip joints up and backwards. IOW, rock so that your groin or 'taint' presses harder into the nose of the saddle. Or another way to think about it is 'pooching' your butt out backwards a bit.

However you look at it, the idea is to allow your spine to stay fairly straight all the way down your back as opposed to a flattish upper back and then a 'break' in the lumbar region to your pelvic girdle which is more or less straight up and down.

Does that make sense?

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Does that make sense?

Nawww... I think he just wanted a picture of you with your butt sticking out. :p

frenchyge said:

Nawww... I think he just wanted a picture of you with your butt sticking out. :p

It's not a pretty sight :p

daveryanwyoming said:

Does that make sense?

Hard to follow up after frenchy's response 😄

Your recommendation is pretty much the same as my PT provided several years ago. I've found the forward rotation of the pelvic area to be particularly helpful. I've also found some saddles support this posture better than others.

Dave

dkrenik said:

.... I've also found some saddles support this posture better than others....Dave

Agreed, just like other parts of bike fit the specific fit and sometimes components like saddles change as riders adapt their positions. Stems often change length as riders learn to rotate forward on the saddle, keep their backs straighter and soften their elbows. So like a lot of things fit and parts can evolve as riding style evolves.

I've found both the saddle style and most comfortable tilt (fairly neutral for me) has changed as I've focused on rotating forward on the saddle and flattening my back. FWIW it was working on my TT bike fit that really got me working on my overall position on my road bike after many years without thinking about it.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

IOW, rock so that your groin or 'taint' presses harder into the nose of the saddle. Or another way to think about it is 'pooching' your butt out backwards a bit.

However you look at it, the idea is to allow your spine to stay fairly straight all the way down your back as opposed to a flattish upper back and then a 'break' in the lumbar region to your pelvic girdle which is more or less straight up and down.

Does that make sense?

-Dave

Yeah it is pretty much the exact opposite as I have been doing it. As you move your pelvis in your butt goes up. The idea of pressing harder into the nose of the seat make sense to me now. I will give it a try and see what happens. That should ease the load on the lower back quite a bit actually the way I see it. Wonder if it is optimal for generating power. I think you would also put more force through your heal...😕

As far as looking at butt's moving, in the gym I got the stair masters the next line infront of the gym bikes so I have plenty to look at. It starts to become a bit hypnotic after about 20 minutes of watching...😄

-js

jsirabella said:

I have to do those exercises everyday as part of the recovery from the herniated disc. I did not know that they stretch that muscle but instead I use them to move the herniation off the nerve. The technique is called Mckenzie technique and the exercises are deviations on the cobra/mini-cobra. It may be best to start with a mini-cobra not to put too much pressure on the spine and work up.

-js

The way that I was told to do the stretch was to support your weight using a chair placed alongside the side that was being stretched. You'd put you arm on it and in conjunction with your other leg you'd remove all weight from the leg that was "knee down". I sometimes do these between the couch and the ottoman - that way I get more support. With less weigh placed upon the leg being stretched I can not only stretch a little more but also a little longer. It's also quiet a bit more relaxing.