Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

tripowerdude
i would pm fergie. i think he has coached world class track racers, time trialists and road racers. he knows his stuff.talk to him and see what his rates are.. all the best
leanman

I would suggest you find someone local if possible. I was down at the track yesterday and there is so much more you can cover face to face.

Leanman
Thank you for the reference. I don't think I could afford a world class coach though.

Fergi
Nice blog and stuff. Do you coach triathletes as well?

I will continue reading some more about training then see.

Thanks. I have worked with a few athletes training for Hawaii Ironman but mainly focused on cycling in conjunction with a swim and run coach to help them with bike set up, pacing and improving aspects of cycling where needed.

Are there other triathlete's where you are based? If new to the sport these people will probably be the best to help you get started. If experienced and looking to improve your biking then perhaps some time with other cyclists.

fergie said:

Are there other triathlete's where you are based? If new to the sport these people will probably be the best to help you get started. If experienced and looking to improve your biking then perhaps some time with other cyclists.

I live in countryside, pretty remote, somewhere in Ontario Canada, more specifically in Vankleek Hill. I know about a club that's based in Ottawa (a 90min drive) but due to time constraint I can't really afford to travel there.

But that's ok. I'm used to train alone. Besides, they may have the club, but here the bike courses are far better, diversified and hilly.

fergie said:

This forum is about cycle training. Either here or slowtwitch.com

I went on slowtwitch. I registered then posted a message. I never got an answer and now this message is already lost somewhere among tons of other messages :o

tripowerdude said:

I went on slowtwitch. I registered then posted a message. I never got an answer and now this message is already lost somewhere among tons of other messages :o

Hi Dude,

My experience with Slowtwitch has never been that good neither. For me, that site is like a Fast Food restaurant. You post, and rapidly get a quick cliché or rapidly loose track or your thread.

Best triathlon discussion forum, I found out over the years, is Tritalk. It's based in the UK. People there are very friendly and respectful of everyone's opinion. There are no flames, no trolls, debates are just delightful. Besides, the knowledge level is very high and there are great time trialists registered there as well (like Bob Tobin for instance)

Even swim threads (which are very common) almost never end up in flames which is very rare.

TriTalk.co.uk :: Index

I contribute a lot there (more than here actually) under the same nickname. All my clients are based there except for two friends who live in my area.

(ps. dude, you're new to forums. Try to ask questions that are relevant to thread's topic. For this sort of question you could drop me a private message just to avoid hijacking these specific discussions)

tripowerdude said:

I went on slowtwitch. I registered then posted a message. I never got an answer and now this message is already lost somewhere among tons of other messages :o

-You might get more help if you ask specific questions. there's a lot to this power training methodology & too much to be explained in one post. it would be like asking 'what does it take to be good at triathlons', a valid question sure, but it is a little too vague to get a simple/concise answer.

-try reading the links that solarenergy provided first. The allen & Coggan book is highly recommend too. all that material will answer some, maybe all of your questions. Anything that doesnt make sense, you can ask here. you can try looking at Dr. Philip Skiba's book called 'the triathletes guide to training with power' - it is more specific to triathletes instead of only cyclists.

-for a more fluid acct. of power training & progress and how the training goes on a day by day basis then try reading the first 30-40 pages of this classic thread. it was hella helpful to me at least: http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/314849-its-killing-me-but.html

DancenMacabre said:

-for a more fluid acct. of power training & progress and how the training goes on a day by day basis then try reading the first 30-40 pages of this classic thread. it was hella helpful to me at least: http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/314849-its-killing-me-but.html

Thank you very much:o. I am up to page 4 already :eek:. I believe I even saw you near the end of the discussion. Power411 theory is fascinating. The only problem is that these devices are quite expensive. Are there any alternatives? I already own a HR monitor. Do you think I could use this program wok+ by pluggin in some HR data instead?

SOLAR I'm sorry. I did it again (hijacking). I am going to get better though I promise.

Commandment #5

Maximum endurance and maximum strength/power are mutually exclusive. You can have a compromise, but never both existing at the same time.

tripowerdude said:

Thank you very much man. I am up to page 4 already :eek:. I believe I even saw you near the end of the discussion. Power411 theory is fascinating. The only problem is that these devices are quite expensive. Are there any alternatives? I already own a HR monitor. Do you think I could use this program wok+ by pluggin in some HR data instead?

SOLAR I'm sorry. I did it again (hijacking). I am going to get better though I promise.

um, i aint a man (or guy or boy) 😉

now on the expensive pm's. i understand, i got my bike & pm used. that made it more affordable but you dont need a PM to get fitter/faster/stronger. years & years of GT winners, merckx, hinault, lemond, indurain, yadda yadda, show you can be the best in your sport w/o a PM. how did many of them train? you guessed it: RPE

-for day to day training RPE is just as accurate as a PM. sometimes more so because if your PE is too high for a training zone then chances are you are not gonna be able to do it for very long. i think of RPE as a way of keeping tabs on power or modulating it as some people say.

-look at the power training levels part of the power411 section & you can note that each of the levels has a corresponding 'PE' rating. that plus the description of the training zone hella helps.

example: level 4 - PE = 4 -5 (strong, very strong) Just below to just above TT effort, taking into account duration, current fitness, environmental conditions, etc. Essentially continuous sensation of moderate or even greater leg effort/fatigue. Continuous conversation difficult at best, due to depth/frequency of breathing. Effort sufficiently high that sustained exercise at this level is mentally very taxing - therefore typically performed in training as multiple 'repeats', 'modules', or 'blocks' of 10-30 min duration. Consecutive days of training at level 4 possible, but such workouts generally only performed when sufficiently rested/recovered from prior training so as to be able to maintain intensity.

-now get on the bike & do an interval where you set a hard (but not impossible) pace for 20 minutes. one where talking is possible but hard & choppy + your breathing is hard + you have to concentrate to keep the effort level high. That's an L4.

-i dont need no stinking PM to tell me i am doing level 4 (but i have one anyway because the real value isnt the day-to-day training stuff!!!) 😄😄😄😄

EDIT: yeap, i would use Golden Cheetah (freeware power software) or WKO even without a PM. if that were the case i would plug in values for TSS in the midpoint of the range. example, if i did a 3 x 20 level 4 workout i might use .93-.95 as my IF to get TSS = 85-90. it isnt perfect but at least it gives you a chance to track what you have done.

#6 A power meter is a measurement tool not a way of training.

Back in the dark ages when I started training heart rate monitors came in and then 10 years ago it was power meters and in recent years it has been the software to track power data has allowed us to track concepts such fitness, fatigue and form a lot better.

What it hasn't done is changed the way we train. Intervals have been around for years, training at threshold gained popularity in the mid 80s and SST is just the modernisation of Arthur Lydiard's best aerobic pace.

One of the coolest things I can show a rider is a power profile from a race and then ask the question why they want to just clock up junk miles at a far lower power and with the performance manager can show then just how big a hole these junk miles are putting them in.

Commandment #7

Improving power/speed at your threshold (lactate, ventilatory, etc...) should be your primary training focus.

I would disagree. Your goals should be your primary training focus. Assess the demands of the event, determine where you are currently at, then determine what methods of training to get from A to B.

What about a track sprinter, Ironman or a RAAM rider. Their races never come close to Threshold (above or below).

Judith Arndt, Marianne Vos, Katie Compton, Tom Boonen, Contador, Armstrong, Cancellara - the GT, spring classic guys, the TT aces these riders yeah they are hella faster/fitter than all of us.............

Truth: but as a group they are no more efficient/better ((aka converting food calories into work)) at turning the pedals than we here in the cycling forums peanut gallery

No differences in cycling efficiency between world... [Int J Sports Med. 2004] - PubMed result

#8 Spend more time riding the bike than you spend analysing the power files or talking about it on Cycling Forums.

fergie said:

I would disagree. Your goals should be your primary training focus. Assess the demands of the event, determine where you are currently at, then determine what methods of training to get from A to B.

What about a track sprinter, Ironman or a RAAM rider. Their races never come close to Threshold (above or below).

My intended audience for this thread is/was newbs...no need to list every exception...nonetheless, I understand where you're coming from...

Commandment #9

When in doubt, take another day's rest - be it active or non-active...

tonyzackery said:

Commandment #9

When in doubt, take another day's rest - be it active or non-active...

Is that an irrefutable truth, even for newbs? My impression is that most newbs that come here could benefit from more training, rather than less.

That might be decent advice for a Cat 2 wannabe who thinks he can go pro if he rides 5 hr/day, but I would refute that as a universally applicable training principle. It kinda flies in the face of recent efforts to help athletes manage workload more effectively for peak performance.

Disagree? No matter...Irrefutable truths? Is/Are there such a thing? Who really cares at this point?

I'm all for simplification at this stage in my cycling experience as I've found that 'paralysis by analysis' is a real and legitimate concern when it pertains to cycling data - witness the debates that have raged within this forum...

In my observation/experience, most newbs are moreso prone to over-reaching than under. The sheer enjoyment of the new found addiction that is road cycling is the catalyst to riding/training too much rather than not enough...ymmv...