Irrefutable Truths and Cycling Training

Commandment #11

Small gains over a long time period are more beneficial than large gains over a short time period.

Commandment #12

Reversibility cont.
If you cease training, you will lose fitness at a faster rate than you can regain it.

tonyzackery said:

Commandment #11

Small gains over a long time period are more beneficial than large gains over a short time period.

Care to phrase that in a way that makes any amount of sense to me? I mean, if someone can make large gains in not much time, the only "problem" I can see is dealing with gains not coming as fast later.

tonyzackery said:

Commandment #12

Reversibility cont.
If you cease training, you will lose fitness at a faster rate than you can regain it.

I'll rephrase this one to say you'll lose fitness faster than you initially gained it, but in my experience, regaining fitness happens faster than either of the above.

I also think this depends on how far down you're restarting from, but hey... let's not overcomplicate things. 😉

Enriss said:

Care to phrase that in a way that makes any amount of sense to me? I mean, if someone can make large gains in not much time, the only "problem" I can see is dealing with gains not coming as fast later.

Think of the large gains made in absolute vO2max when a person initially starts training versus the smaller gains made in functional threshold power over a longer period of time. Of the two, I'd say the gains in FTP are more beneficial. YMMV.

tonyzackery said:

Think of the large gains made in absolute vO2max when a person initially starts training versus the smaller gains made in functional threshold power over a longer period of time. Of the two, I'd say the gains in FTP are more beneficial. YMMV.

Ah, gotcha. I was thinking you were suggesting that gaining a lot of FTP quickly isn't as good as gaining the same amount of FTP but over a LONG period of time.

frenchyge said:

I'll rephrase this one to say you'll lose fitness faster than you initially gained it, but in my experience, regaining fitness happens faster than either of the above.

I also think this depends on how far down you're restarting from, but hey... let's not overcomplicate things. 😉

Glad you're catching on...

Commandment #12:

You can 'Train smarter and harder'; the two qualities are not mutually exclusive. Some discipline and the effective use of available tools (i.e. powermeter) will allow you to get the most out of each training session.

Commandment 13:

Work/train, don't suffer. Leave the suffering for races.

tonyzackery said:

Commandment 13:

Work/train, don't suffer. Leave the suffering for races.

O.K., you got me Tony, that's one I completely agree with(could be more, I lost track of this thread a while back) or as Lydiard said:

'Train, don't strain'

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

O.K., you got me Tony, that's one I completely agree with(could be more, I lost track of this thread a while back) or as Lydiard said:

'Train, don't strain'

-Dave

strain...nothing that a little ibuprofen can't sort out...you didn't hear that from me though...😄

fergie said:

Principles of Fitness

-Specificity
-Progressive overload
-Individuality
-Reversibility

Fergie, do you advocate roadie sprinters train their sprint while fresh (i.e. at the beginning of a workout), or after conducting other workouts during that session (i.e. after they've got some fatigue in their legs, just as in an actual race) considering the principle of specificity would dictate the latter, I presume. However, every piece of information I've read unequivocally has stated that you should do your sprint workouts when fresh.

tonyzackery said:

Fergie, do you advocate roadie sprinters train their sprint while fresh (i.e. at the beginning of a workout), or after conducting other workouts during that session (i.e. after they've got some fatigue in their legs, just as in an actual race) considering the principle of specificity would dictate the latter, I presume. However, every piece of information I've read unequivocally has stated that you should do your sprint workouts when fresh.

I would factor in the difference between a roadie sprint and a track sprint. Even the difference between a sprint at the end of a 25mile crit and a 160mile road race is vast. At the end of a 160miles it's not really speed that wins but anaerobic capacity and what state you get to the end.

If you are training speed then it should be done early in a session and when well rested but it begs the question should you train components of fitness (speed, stamina and strength) or train how you intend to race.

fergie said:

If you are training speed then it should be done early in a session and when well rested but it begs the question should you train components of fitness (speed, stamina and strength) or train how you intend to race.

This is counter to the "traditional" sense specificity, is it not? I've never followed the reasoning as to why you should train speed (in this case, speed at the end of a race) when "fresh" when you won't be at the end of a road race or crit?

I hope Fergie will reply & share his thoughts with us on your question.

Meanwhile...

My feeling is that engaging in sprint training when fresh is by far the best way to meet the more relevant principle here in creating positive adaptations to NM power, namely the overload principle.

It seems to me that it would be quite difficult to create overload after riding hard even during a regular training session, much less at/near the end of a race, when PCr stores will obviously have been depleted. Yes the topic is about training for positive NM adaptations (increased short term power), but to improve your true peak & 5 second power is going to happen via the phosphagen system.

Given that it takes 4 minutes (or more) of complete, (as in get off the bike, stop pedaling & sit on your duff), rest to replenish that PCr bank - it is clear that that same 'account' will have been drawn down significantly during a race. It seems unlikely that you'll be able to create he needed overload for positive adaptations on a 1/2 full tank, so to speak. Moreover, recovery from hard jumps is more indicative of metabolic (aerobic) fitness not aenerobic fitness because 1) rates of ATP resynthesis correlate with mitochondrial capacity, 2) all ATP resynthesis within your muscles occurs via the aerobic metabolism, and 3) fatigue while racing is related to changes in high-energy ATP levels.

These are salient points and I remember Fergie mentioned them in the leg strength thread when discussing the recent Aussie training methods. Basically the Aussie sprinters had incredible peak & 5 second power, but their metabolic (re: aerobic) fitness was marginal. The end result, besides their poor showing overall, is that they could not duplicate their best times from early on and/or from qualifying rounds.

Another angle to consider - by the time you do a set of 4 hard 30 second efforts, most of the energy is coming from aerobic sources. Given that most mass start races last considerably longer & will not offer any chance for complete recovery, then the importance of the aerobic mechanism becomes even more important & prominent.

I guess in conclusion I'd wager that sprint power is going to be reduced when performed after intense exercise/activity/training. That reduction is in direct proportion to the high-energy phosphate levels in muscle. You can ride at your peak aerobic ability for long periods & you can produce your best sprint, but it is unlikely you will do both at the same time.

I'd say the keys to your best sprint at the end of the race would be:
1- conserve, conserve, conserve energy during the race
2- be as aerobically fit as possible
3- train your sprint will fresh to maximize positive adaptations
4 - see point #1

my $.02 :-)

^^ Excellent info for the newbie who aspires to sprint with any success, DM. Thanks.

In my case, I don't train my sprint at all - regardless when I'm fresh or not (when you've been blessed with 1.8kw without any dedicated training, your time is better spent elsewhere), so my questions to Fergie have not been for my own edification from a training standpoint, but moreso simply to clear up my understanding of the specificity aspect that he is an ardent proponent of. It appears to me sprint training is an exception to this rule.

Just so we're all clear, this is a roadie doing sprint training - not a match sprinter training on the track.

tonyzackery said:

.... but moreso simply to clear up my understanding of the specificity aspect that he is an ardent proponent of. It appears to me sprint training is an exception to this rule.....

I don't see it quite that way. Seems to me there's always a tug of war between specificity, particularly race specificity and targeting a specific training adaptation.

It's basically the same reason that racing isn't necessarily the best training. If your weakness is FTP then it's a rare race that targets that particular adaptation with few sustained sections that really fall into L4 work unless there's sustained climbing. But if your weakness is L6 or recovering from frequent L6 efforts then racing might be just the ticket to tune up the top end.

Anyway I think specificity has to be taken in the context of targeted training response not overall as in emulate races to work what you'll need in races. From that standpoint sprint work benefits from additional recovery and L4 work benefits from sustained sections even if races don't usually play out that way.

-Dave
P.S. Also looking back through Fergie's posts he seems to be a big advocate of specificity in terms of doing work on the bike and specificity such as climbing to improve climbing. But I don't see a lot of posts telling folks to emulate races to become better racers or taking the specificity principle up to such a high level. Seems to me he's still a big advocate for targeted training responses, but that those focused sessions should be done on the bike with things like cadence, terrain, etc. as similar as possible to race day conditions.

^^ Thanks for the info, Dave.

However, I believe you may have misunderstood the intent of my initial question to Fergie - this is not an attack on him or his training philosophy for which would require a defensive posture or others needing to come to his rescue (going through his previous posts?); nothing nefarious going on here.

In the future, I'll PM an individual if there's a direct question so as to avoid this situation.

I sure didn't mean to insinuate anything nefarious 😎

I guess I was responding to the way folks interpret 'specificity' as at least to me that doesn't mean 'emulate racing'.

Sorry if I came of defensive, not my intent.

-Dave

"It never gets easier, you just go faster."
Greg LeMond

"First week you feel good, the second week you lose strength. Third week, f#cked."
Per Pedersen, on the Tour de France

"Oh, sure, if you find burning thighs, aching back, tunnel vision, abject fatigue, and a long sure slide into the depths of poverty to be 'a good time', then cycling is the sport for you. 'cause it sure is for me."
Jamie Smith

"To be a cyclist is to be a student of pain....at cycling's core lies pain, hard and bitter as the pit inside a juicy peach. It doesn't matter if you're sprinting for an Olympic medal, a town sign, a trailhead, or the rest stop with the homemade brownies. If you never confront pain, you're missing the essence of the sport. Without pain, there's no adversity. Without adversity, no challenge. Without challenge, no improvement. No improvement, no sense of accomplishment and no deep-down joy. Might as well be playing Tiddly-Winks."
Scott Martin