Trouble with the a new groupset

it is just a matter of fine tuning the shifting adjustment, under load it is normal that the gears behave differently as opposed to the bike on the stand, who made the original installation upgrade ?

Thanks. I did it all myself, and then had a cycle mechanic check over to make sure everything was secure and that it was indexing properly.

Chris, likely just needs the "hi limit" stop screw on the RD loosened 1/8-1/4 turn. Look at the stop screws carefully with the RD in the full outside position to see which screw is contacting the hinge stop: that's the one to tweak. Don't go too far with it; just enough to get delay-free shifting onto the small cog.. As you loosen, you should be able to see the RD move just a fraction. If that doesn't solve the problem, could be an issue of too much cable tension. The cable should be slack (not pulling) when the RD is all the way out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vspa [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

it is just a matter of fine tuning the shifting adjustment, under load it is normal that the gears behave differently as opposed to the bike on the stand,

It may also be a matter of the chain being two links (one inch) too short ..

Adding the missing links isn't necessarily difficult (presuming you didn't toss them!), but it may be a daunting task if you've always used Shimano's installation pins and/or quick links.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by dhk2 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Chris, likely just needs the "hi limit" stop screw on the RD loosened 1/8-1/4 turn. Look at the stop screws carefully with the RD in the full outside position to see which screw is contacting the hinge stop: that's the one to tweak. Don't go too far with it; just enough to get delay-free shifting onto the small cog.. As you loosen, you should be able to see the RD move just a fraction.

This is good advice, too.

• 'I' believe that the current Shimano shifters are designed to over-shift slightly to facilitate shifting from cog-to-cog or onto from the inner-to-outer chainring
  
• by my reckoning, over-shifting is "collateral damage" to using the floating upper pulley wheel ...
  

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by dhk2 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

If that doesn't solve the problem, could be an issue of too much cable tension. The cable should be slack (not pulling) when the RD is all the way out.

I don't agree with the statement that "The cable should be slack (not pulling) when the RD is all the way out."

While I resorted to a "slack" cable to facilitate the derailleur moving the chain onto the smallest cog for a couple of weeks, that was a less-than-ideal solution which (IMO) created other problems ...

• the cable housing between the shifter & the stop on the frame could be too short by an inch-or-two ...
  
• the cable housing between the chainstay and the rear derailleru might be too short by an inch-or-two ...
  

If the derailleur housing is "hidden" underneath the handlebar tape then it may be kinked between the shifter & the stop and causing the cable to bind ...

• I've said it many times before, I prefer to use BRAKE CABLE HOUSING rather than the parallel stranded derailleur cable housing BECAUSE the inner diameter is larger & there is less resistance, IMO, if the cable is lightly lubed than when the cable has to snake through a barely larger ID cable housing which requires almost-zero-tolerance ferrles. Substituing Brake Cable Housing may resolve the problem ... or, not.
  

BTW. The worst case scenario (because it could actually cost you money to resolve) would be if your rear derailleur hanger is out of alignment ... worse if that is the case and the frame does not have a replaceable hanger ...

• the hanger on a steel frame can be readily realigned as a DIY endeavor or your LBS can do it.
  

• If you have a reasonably good "eye" then one way you can check the alignment of the rear derailleur hanger is by putting a 5mm Allen Wrench into the rear derailleur's mounting bolt & seeing if the Allen Wrench is perpendicular to the central plane of the bike (which you have to visualize) ... a stiff board held against the rear dropout (with the wheel not in the frame) could be used ... OR, if you happen to have an old Campagnolo Nuovo Record (or, equivalent) rear derailleur, you could mount it and it will immediately become clear if the derailleur hanger is out of alignment when you look at it from the rear.
  

There may be other things to investigate AND the rear of the bike may be indeed be flexing and causing the problem ...

Of course, if the problem persists, then you chould consider selling the 105 shifters & replacing them with a set of 11-speed Campagnolo shifters!?!

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alfeng, you've obviously worked this stuff alot more than I have, but you've lost me now. Maybe "slack" was a poor choice of words, but my point is that the cable needs to permit the RD to come to rest at the limit stops. IAW, when the high-limit screw is turned out, the RD moves out....it's not constrained by the cable. Is that not how it's supposed to work?

dhk2 said:

alfeng, you've obviously worked this stuff alot more than I have, but you've lost me now. Maybe "slack" was a poor choice of words, but my point is that the cable needs to permit the RD to come to rest at the limit stops. IAW, when the high-limit screw is turned out, the RD moves out....it's not constrained by the cable. Is that not how it's supposed to work?

You're absolutely correct. If cable tension is too high, it can prevent a derailleur from moving through the entire range between the high and low limits that are set.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by ChrisPage23 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Hi.

So i've been road riding for about a year now and decided to upgrade my groupset; was a full Shimano sora set up now its a shimano 105.

However since this has been changed i've noticed that no matter what I adjust, the bike does not like going into gear 20. When riding I can feel that it is randomly trying to jump out and looses all traction for a second or two then carries on, but this will repeatedly happen!

More strange, is the fact that when I'm off the bike and its in the stand, the gear does not slip and everything works smoothly. Is this a case, that my fat [censored] which causes flexion through the rear forks is more than the tolerances of the new kit?

Please offer suggestions.

Thanks
Chris

Hi ChrisPage23, sounds like the cable guide under the BB is dry and when BB flex occurs the cable sticks to the BB cable guide and pulls the RD which results in what you are describing. Oil the cable and cable guide with a teflon/ceremic oil, something like Rock N Roll Cable Magic, or even quality chain oil and wipe off the excess, and see if it still happens :-)

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by dhk2 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

alfeng, you've obviously worked this stuff alot more than I have, but you've lost me now. Maybe "slack" was a poor choice of words, but my point is that the cable needs to permit the RD to come to rest at the limit stops. IAW, when the high-limit screw is turned out, the RD moves out....it's not constrained by the cable. Is that not how it's supposed to work?

Is there a real question, here?

FWIW. Without getting too-deep-into-the-weeds ...

I set the both the High & Low stops WITHOUT a chain snaking through the derailleur RATHER than adjusting the stops with the chain in place & cable attached.

• I was a little perplexed with the 10-speed 105 rear derailleur that I bought because it was the FIRST Shimano rear derailleur that I had which had a floating upper pulley wheel the 7703 upper pulley wheel was supposedly different from the lower pulley wheel, but I don't know if it was a floating pulley wheel
  
• the upper pulley wheels on the 6500 & 6503 derailluers were not floating pulley wheels
  
• the 5500 rear derailleur's upper pulley wheel which I had did not float
  
• I immediately replaced the upper pulley wheels on MY 10-speed Shimano rear derailleurs with non-floating, 10t wheels because I wanted the extra cog clearance ... one of these days/months/years, I'll have to try a "stock" Shimano rear derailleur which has a floating upper pulley wheel to see how inefficient it makes the shifting ... or, not!?!
  

Because I set the stops before I adjust the indexing, the upper-and-lower stops are not an issue when I actually adjust the indexing ...

• again, I am not using the floating pulley wheel ... 'I' think the floating pulley wheel can adversely affect the efficiency of the indexing which 'I' reckon is why Shimano's engineers have resorted to the asymmetrically chamfered chain ...
  

BTW. I suspect that if I kept the upper floating wheel in place on my Shimano rear derailleurs that I might not be as keen to use them with my Campagnolo shifters as I am.

alfeng, yep, a real question which only requires a yes-or-no answer. After wading through the weeds, believe your answer is a yes, ie, you use the limit stop, not the cable, to set the outboard limit of the RD. That's all i meant by my first comment to the OP....that the cable shouldn't be holding the RD, it should be slack.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by dhk2 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

alfeng, yep, a real question which only requires a yes-or-no answer. After wading through the weeds, believe your answer is a yes, ie, you use the limit stop, not the cable, to set the outboard limit of the RD. That's all i meant by my first comment to the OP....that the cable shouldn't be holding the RD, it should be slack.

Although you have said "that the cable shouldn't be holding the RD" you follow the statement by again saying that "it should be slack."

So, I have to ask ...

Just how does the word "slack" translate in the South?

Because it must be slang which is used differently than in most of the boring parts of the English speaking world.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by dhk2 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

alfeng, you've obviously worked this stuff alot more than I have, ...

BTW. Whether or not I have "worked (on) this stuff alot more than" you have, let me repeat that I think that Shimano's asymmetrical, chamfered chains would be probably be beneficial for anyone using 10-speed Shimano shifters ...

AND/OR, those whose Shimano rear derailleur has a floatng upper pulley wheel.

Too-short chains will create trouble in the big-big combination before you ever see it on the small cogs. If the rear derailleur hanger is straight, the cables are sliding freely, and the chain is indexing properly on the other 9 cogs, then the problem is with the outer limit screw.

While the inner screw is set so the jockey wheel is in perfect alignment with the big cog, the outer one should align the center of wheel with the outer edge of the little cog. This is because all you have moving the derailleur down is a spring, and it needs to hit the end of the cable with a bit of vigor for the chain to snick onto the cog. This setting is "loose," but not loose enough to drop the chain off the smallest cog.

And by the way, I've had stupendous results setting up 5600, 6600, and 7800 with symmetrical 10-speed chains from Shimano, SRAM, and KMC. Maybe the Shimano chains worked a smidge better., but . . .

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alfeng [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Is there a real question, here?

FWIW. Without getting too-deep-into-the-weeds ...

I set the both the High & Low stops WITHOUT a chain snaking through the derailleur RATHER than adjusting the stops with the chain in place & cable attached.

• I was a little perplexed with the 10-speed 105 rear derailleur that I bought because it was the FIRST Shimano rear derailleur that I had which had a floating upper pulley wheel the 7703 upper pulley wheel was supposedly different from the lower pulley wheel, but I don't know if it was a floating pulley wheel
  
• the upper pulley wheels on the 6500 & 6503 derailluers were not floating pulley wheels
  
• the 5500 rear derailleur's upper pulley wheel which I had did not float
  
• I immediately replaced the upper pulley wheels on MY 10-speed Shimano rear derailleurs with non-floating, 10t wheels because I wanted the extra cog clearance ... one of these days/months/years, I'll have to try a "stock" Shimano rear derailleur which has a floating upper pulley wheel to see how inefficient it makes the shifting ... or, not!?!
  

Because I set the stops before I adjust the indexing, the upper-and-lower stops are not an issue when I actually adjust the indexing ...

• again, I am not using the floating pulley wheel ... 'I' think the floating pulley wheel can adversely affect the efficiency of the indexing which 'I' reckon is why Shimano's engineers have resorted to the asymmetrically chamfered chain ...
  

BTW. I suspect that if I kept the upper floating wheel in place on my Shimano rear derailleurs that I might not be as keen to use them with my Campagnolo shifters as I am.

So you change a key feature of the shimano SIS and wonder why it doesn't work? The centeron pulley is an essential part of the system - and you wonder why your shifts are rubbish and require a bastardized system (ie Campag levers) to work properly.

As a side note, all Shimano 600 from the near ancient 600SIS launched in 1986 had a floating centeron guide pulley. On later models it was simply known as the "g pulley" - g for guide. I know it was also on the Dura Ace 7401 and I believe it was first launched in 1985 on the 6sp indexed 7400.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

So you change a key feature of the shimano SIS and wonder why it doesn't work? The centeron pulley is an essential part of the system - and you wonder why your shifts are rubbish and require a bastardized system (ie Campag levers) to work properly..

Alf has said he uses the Compagnolo levers because of their superior ergonomics and construction.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alfeng [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Although you have said "that the cable shouldn't be holding the RD" you follow the statement by again saying that "it should be slack."

So, I have to ask ...

Just how does the word "slack" translate in the South?

Because it must be slang which is used differently than in most of the boring parts of the English speaking world.

I like to use Merriam Webster definitions, as in "not tight or taut" <a slack rope>. That's exactly what I had in mind when I used the word slack with which you seem to disagree. If you substitute "not tight or taut" for slack, maybe you'll find we are in agreement after all. That would again be a record day.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You're absolutely correct. If cable tension is too high, it can prevent a derailleur from moving through the entire range between the high and low limits that are set.

Yeeeeupppp!!!!!

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

So you change a key feature of the shimano SIS and wonder why it doesn't work? The centeron pulley is an essential part of the system - and you wonder why your shifts are rubbish and require a bastardized system (ie Campag levers) to work properly.

As a side note, all Shimano 600 from the near ancient 600SIS launched in 1986 had a floating centeron guide pulley. On later models it was simply known as the "g pulley" - g for guide. I know it was also on the Dura Ace 7401 and I believe it was first launched in 1985 on the 6sp indexed 7400.

Yeah, pretty incredible to me as well. Since I believe the engineers at Shimano know more than I do about their hardware, I figure it's enough just to install the pieces per the instructions and go ride. The builder did that about 8 years and 32K miles ago, and my DA 7700 triple still shifts perfectly without any fiddling. I did change cables once at 18K miles, after the FD cable broke, but other than that, no maintenance adjustments or lube on shifters, cables or derailleurs. Have nothing against Campagnolo or Sram, but when boring old Shimano functions so well for so long it's easy to see how they came to be the sales leader.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
So you change a key feature of the shimano SIS and wonder why it doesn't work? The centeron pulley is an essential part of the system - and you wonder why your shifts are rubbish and require a bastardized system (ie Campag levers) to work properly.

As a side note, all Shimano 600 from the near ancient 600SIS launched in 1986 had a floating centeron guide pulley. On later models it was simply known as the "g pulley" - g for guide. I know it was also on the Dura Ace 7401 and I believe it was first launched in 1985 on the 6sp indexed 7400.

Huh?

As I stated, none of the many 9-speed Shimano rear derailluers which I have (AND, thats true of the few 8-speed Shimano rear derailleurs which I have) came with a FLOATING UPPER PULLEY WHEEL ...

So, I don't know what you are talking about ...

As I stated, regardless of your statement or experience OR the "name" which Shimano may have given to their upper pulley wheel, the first Floating upper pulley wheel which I ever encountered was on a 10-speed 105 rear derailleur about 8+ years ago ...

MAYBE you don't know what I mean by "FLOATING UPPER PULLEY WHEEL" ...

• GRAB the upper pulley wheel on your 10-speed Shimano rear derailler & it can be wiggled about (?) 1mm left-to-right ... I certainly cannot do that with any of the 8-speed OR 9-speed Shimano rear derailleurs which I have had AND I doubt that you could-or-can with the upper pulley wheel on a 6500/6503, 950/952, 750, etc. Shimano rear derailler.
  

BTW. The over-shifting which I think would be difficult for you to deny reading some "reviewers" mentioning for shifting (specifically) between chainrings undoubtedly was engineered into the Shimano rear shifter, too, when said reviewers mentioned how marvelous they found electronic shifting to be..

AND, as I have stated, by my reckoning, the asymmetric, chamfered chain is ONE WAY the Shimano engineers have compensated for the floating upper pulley wheel to facilitate the chain dropping onto successively smaller cogs.

As far as working properly, I still contend that Campagnolo shifters mated to Shimano derailleurs + cassette are a superior mechanical combination ... and, the gushing over both Di2 & EPS does not sound any more efficient than what I or anyone else can readily achieve with the fore mentioned combination for a fraction of the cost of the high-zoot groups (either mechanical or electronic made by either Campagnolo or Shimano)..

As I previously stated in at least one earlier thread, I think it could be suggested that the Campagnolo shifters are subjectively better with a Shimano cassette than with a Campagnolo cassette, but the shifting is already sufficiently efficient with Campagnolo cogs (in the past ~10? years) that it is just gilding-the-lilly, IMO, so that cyclist like "Newt" may not notice enough difference to warrant changing wheelsets (I presume that when Newt's Campagnolo cassette needs to be replaced that he could have the Freehub body on his White Industries rear hub replaced with a 9-/10-speed or an 11-speed Shimano Freehub body if he thought that the incremental difference and/or more widely available variety of Shimano cassettes would be worthwhile to him).

• put another way, 'I' think that many Campagnolo users can save money by using Shimano chains & Shimano cassettes Shimano compatible wheelsets are much more readily available
  

[*] Campagnolo users can benefit from choosing a Shimano front derailleur rather than a Campagnolo front derailleur
[*] in some instances, a Shimano rear derailleur can replace an over-priced Campagnolo rear derailleur

As was true more than 30 years ago, some combinations of components just work better than others ...

• why put up with clumsy or (worse) finicky cable routing?
  

Unless you want to (and, that's everyone's prerogative), Why pay more than you have to?!?

BTW. There's not much that I can do if YOU feel the need to be unnecessarily defensive about your decision to use DA components OR the need for the leisure-suit-larry matching components on your bike(s); but, 'I' am critical of both marques ...

• However, few Campagnolo users are asking for possible upgrades to whatever Campagnolo components they have BECAUSE if they did then I would recommend the fore mentioned Shimano alternatives.