9/10 speed compatibility and other stuff

StefE said:

Hi, I'm baffled and would appreciate any help!
I have a great bike from around 1999-2000 and want to upgrade the frame. Wheels are Ksyriums and it has full Ultegra 9 speed.
Is it possible to change to a 10 speed cassette? If so, would I have to change the chain (is it a different size?), the chainset, the STi levers, or....is some of it compatible?
If it's too difficult, I could leave it as 9 speed and change the chainset to a newer Ultegra/Dura Ace compact, but then aren't they all 10 speed? Or are they compatible?
Very grateful for any help possible!! Thanks

10spd cranksets are compatible with 9spd cranksets, so just adding a compact crank would be possible. You cannot get away with just adding a 10spd cassette. You'll at least need 10spd shifters. As for the rest, someone else will have to answer that.

Thanks, that's amazingly helpful, really appreciate it.

So will a new 10 speed chainset work with a 9 speed chain?

StefE said:

Thanks, that's amazingly helpful, really appreciate it.
So will a new 10 speed chainset work with a 9 speed chain?

A 10spd crankset will work with a 9spd chain.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by StefE [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Hi, I'm baffled and would appreciate any help!

I have a great bike from around 1999-2000 and want to upgrade the frame. Wheels are Ksyriums and it has full Ultegra 9 speed.

Is it possible to change to a 10 speed cassette? If so, would I have to change the chain (is it a different size?), the chainset, the STi levers, or....is some of it compatible?

If it's too difficult, I could leave it as 9 speed and change the chainset to a newer Ultegra/Dura Ace compact, but then aren't they all 10 speed? Or are they compatible?

Very grateful for any help possible!! Thanks

Hi StefE, you have mentioned using a compact crankset (50/34). Are you looking for lower gearing for hill climbing, etc?
If so, what cassette (ie. 12-25T) and crankset (ie.39/52T) are you using?

Thanks for replying. yes, looking to have the compact option for when I'm going up hills. I live in the Peak District so any which way out of the house is uphill! The chainset is 39/52 and I believe the cassette is 12-26, but I'm away from home for a few days so can't check for definite. Does this make a difference?

StefE said:

Thanks for replying. yes, looking to have the compact option for when I'm going up hills. I live in the Peak District so any which way out of the house is uphill! The chainset is 39/52 and I believe the cassette is 12-26, but I'm away from home for a few days so can't check for definite. Does this make a difference?

The only difference it would make would be in the capacity of your derailleurs. Capacity is defined for a rear derailleur as (no. teeth big chainring - no. teeth sm. chainring) + (no. teeth big cassette cog - no. teeth sm. cassette cog). As an example you're running 52/39 chainrings and a 12-26 cassette, so your rear derailleur needs to have a capacity of at least (52 - 39) + (26 - 12) = 27. If you changed to a compact crank set with 50/34 gearing, using the same cassette your rear derailleur would need a capacity of at least of 30. In most circumstances you can exceed the rated capacity by a bit. Front derailleur capacity is just the no. teeth on the large chainring - the no. of teeth on the small chainring. You can in likely most cases go slightly over capacity for the rear derailleur. For instance I use a 50/34 crank set and an 11-28 cassette. The capacity for my rear derailleur should be at least 33, but the rated capacity of my Campagnolo rear derailleur is 27. I can use any gear combination despite being over capacity on the RD.

so if I have a medium caged rear derailleur, is 30 ok?

I'm confused as to what makes the 10 gearing different to 9, in other words if you use a double chainset, the front derailleur and presumably STI levers are ok. If you put a 10 speed cassette on (I'm fairly sure the Ksyriums can take it), does the rear derailleur have to be changed? Or is it the STI lever, or even both?

Sorry to be thick!

StefE said:

so if I have a medium caged rear derailleur, is 30 ok?
I'm confused as to what makes the 10 gearing different to 9, in other words if you use a double chainset, the front derailleur and presumably STI levers are ok. If you put a 10 speed cassette on (I'm fairly sure the Ksyriums can take it), does the rear derailleur have to be changed? Or is it the STI lever, or even both?
Sorry to be thick!

What makes 9 speed and 10 speed different are a few things:

• the spacing between cogs on the cassette
• the cable pull of the shifter
• and the geometry of the rear derailleur (specifically how far it moves with each shift)

I'm not familiar with Shimano enough to know if your current RD would be compatible with 10spd shifters. You will have to change at least the shifters to get access to all 10 speeds on a 10spd cassette. If you're patient, you'll likely have an answer to your questions by the end of the day....i.e. once some of the Shimano folks chime in. You're not being thick at all. Forums like this exist largely for people to find answers to their questions. I'm pretty sure only robots can start out with a full knowledge set.

Thanks so much for your help. As you say, hopefully someone else will be able to speak Shimano specific

Another option would be replacing your Cassette with a HG50 9spd 11-34 and rear derailleur with a Deore XT 9sp. I am not quite sure of the compatibility being 100% with your current brifters but I am sure a tech poster will chime in on this. If this is possible it will help you up the hills while allowing you to still enjoy the decent.

I see a lot of touring and Cyclocross bikes advertised with this set up.

Is your rear derailleur a short cage or long cage derailleur?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Is your rear derailleur a short cage or long cage derailleur?

The issue with big cogs and road derailleurs is the clearance between the jockey pulley and the big cog, and that does not change with cage length. Cage length determines the total capacity of the derailleur--max difference of chainring size plus max difference of cassette cog size. F'rinstance, a new 105 (5700) rear derailleur with the SS cage advertises a max rear cog size of 28t and a total capacity of 33t. With the GS cage, the max rear cog is still 28t, but total capacity is bumped to 39t. This is why bikes with triple are always sold with GS cages, to handle the slack left by using tiny 30t chainrings. This is unfamiliar territory to contemporary Campagnolo and Dura-Ace users.

Lots of riders try to push the capacity of their road derailleurs, and that is always a crapshoot. That is, you won't know if your rear derailleur can handle a 30t cassette cog until you try it. Pushing the total capacity requires a longer chain and that usually means sacrificing use of the smallest rear cogs with the small chainring. The ability to push the size of the big cassette cog is probably determined more by the shape of the derailleur hanger than anything else.

And, no, derailleur hangers are not interchangeable, but I do see a business opportunity for someone who can forge and machine aluminum.

oldbobcat said:

The issue with big cogs and road derailleurs is the clearance between the jockey pulley and the big cog, and that does not change with cage length.

Yeah, I know. I asked the question with capacity in mind. I agree that the clearance someone can get via the B-screw is the decider in terms of the largest cog. I'll bet that there were some B-screws adjusted to their limits on some of the bikes going up the Angliru in the Vuelta last year. I don't have enough experience with Shimano (my last Shimano group was 600) to even guess what size cogs the OP could get away with given his Ultegra RD.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by StefE [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Thanks for replying. yes, looking to have the compact option for when I'm going up hills. I live in the Peak District so any which way out of the house is uphill! The chainset is 39/52 and I believe the cassette is 12-26, but I'm away from home for a few days so can't check for definite. Does this make a difference?

Hi StefE, on option that will work perfectly with your 9spd Ultegra setup is to change your cassette/RD to a 9spd 11-32 or 11-34 MTB Shimano (XT or XTR (the XTR is excellent)) or Sram (PG990 is excellent) cassette and a 9spd XT MTB M772 SGS RD or 9spd XTR MTB M972 SGS RD (the XTR is excellent, but a little pricey unless on special) ... as davereo has suggested :-)

The 32/39 will give the low gearing equivalent to 28/34 and the 34/39 will give lower gearing and both the 11-32 or 11-34 will give higher gearing, 11/39 compared to 11/34 :-)

Sram make an 11-28 9spd cassette and there are alternative cranksets to Shimano (ie FSA) that do 9spd compact cranksets :-)

Another alternative is to purchase the new 6750 Ultegra compact groupset (11-28T cassette and 34/50 crankset) for about $800 to $900 :-)

One more alternative is an 11-32 or 11-34T cassette and get a compact 34/50 crankset. Super low 34/34 gearing and good 11-34/50 high gearing :-)

Thanks for all the responses, how come it's never easy !

will probably either just change the cassette to a wider range of gears, bearing in mind the max capacity of the rear derailleur or risk buying a (used) 10 speed compact and giving it a whirl. could always sell it on ebay again if it doesn't work out.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I'm staying with a friend of mine while I'm away from home and he has 105 10 speed. His spare wheel he uses for his turbo trainer we just noticed has a 9 speed cassette, but it all works fine..........aaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!

Thanks again..

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by StefE [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
Just to throw a spanner in the works, I'm staying with a friend of mine while I'm away from home and he has 105 10 speed. His spare wheel he uses for his turbo trainer we just noticed has a 9 speed cassette, but it all works fine..........aaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!

Hi StefE, yes a 10spd chain will work on a 9spd cassette and on 9spd chain rings :-)

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by StefE [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Hi, I'm baffled and would appreciate any help!

I have a great bike from around 1999-2000 and want to upgrade the frame. Wheels are Ksyriums and it has full Ultegra 9 speed.

Is it possible to change to a 10 speed cassette? If so, would I have to change the chain (is it a different size?), the chainset, the STi levers, or....is some of it compatible?

If it's too difficult, I could leave it as 9 speed and change the chainset to a newer Ultegra/Dura Ace compact, but then aren't they all 10 speed? Or are they compatible?

FWIW. It is NOT difficult to convert a bike from a 9-speed drivetrain to a 10-speed drivetain ... but, if lower gearing is the primary objective, then you don't need to spend more than $100 ... you can, of course, spend much more if you want to.

FSA MegaExo cranksets & BBs are much more economically priced than Shimano Hollowtech II cranksets & BBs ... and, FSA MegaExco cranks & BBs are interchangeble with Shimano Hollowtech II cranksets & BBs -- a good thing!

Some people have been unhappy with FSA cranksets, I have not been ...

So, I recommend you consider simply replacing your current crankset with a "compact" 50/34 FSA MegaExo crankset ...

• BTW. Using a MTB Cassette is definitely another option to achieve lower gearing ...
  
• you may want to use a Shimano MTB rear derailleur, but it may not be necessary ... the option you choose depends on your budget AND aesthetic sensibilities.
  

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by StefE [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I'm staying with a friend of mine while I'm away from home and he has 105 10 speed. His spare wheel he uses for his turbo trainer we just noticed has a 9 speed cassette, but it all works fine..........aaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!

FYI. The 9-speed Shimano Cassette works in the otherwise 10-speed Shimano setup because the ramping on the cogs which makes shifting smoother in normal circumstances also facilitates allowing the chain to engage the next cog regardless of the actual indexing ...

• the space between the chain's plates is more than sufficient to fit around the cog's teeth
  
• the "float" (slop) in the upper jockey wheel allows the chain to appear to center on the jockey wheel ... there may-or-may-not be premature wear on the upper pulley wheel if the indexing is off
  

BTW. The rear derailleur does not care if a chain is narrower than whatever Shimano specs ... the front deraillur MAY care if the chain is mis-matched.

I am also going through the exact same process. I have a tcr with ultegra 6500 all over. This is 9 speed with octalink bb. I couldn't buy an old octalink compact so I have to upgrade the bb. So I bought a bb6700 for $20 and a 6750 compact for $200 from ribble. I also bought the shimano tlfc32 bb tool for $12 and crank tlfc16 tool for $2. I had to buy other consumerables to get free delivery. I did consider the FSA option. This would have saved me $100. I decided to keep everything original, Ultegra. Hollowtech is without question high quality gear. The budget FSA cranks have mixed reviews. The FSA is also black, not matching the rest of my bike. This will give me 50/34 x 12/27. It arrived yesterday so I'll be fitting it this weekend. FWIW, the 6750 crank is stated as a 10 speed. My bike is 9 speed including the chain. This mix is OK cause the 9 speed chain is marginally wider therefore fitting over the 10 speed chainset.