CHEATSTRONG

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by limerickman [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Legal cheating is your own definition. A meaningless definition nonetheless.

It isn't mine! I heard the term through out my youth. It was commonly used in the mid-west in the 50's 60's and 70's. Exploiting the rules, as opposed to just obeying the rules is part of what I thought was part of organized sports. Dieting [SERIOUS dieting] to fit into a lower weight class.... postponing tests to retain a lower belt rating.... carrying 2 putters but still only 14 clubs. All legal acts to the letter of the rules! But also all... may also be cheating if you consider the spirit of the rules.

I agree with most of what your posting. I am not justifying or condoning any actions by any sportsmen (or women). But for gods sake... where and when did cyclist become keeper of moral compasses. I know cycling is a sport! But it is also part entertainment... and few really care if the people that provide us with entertainment indulge in performance enhancements.

Platitudes.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
It isn't mine! I heard the term through out my youth. It was commonly used in the mid-west in the 50's 60's and 70's. Exploiting the rules, as opposed to just obeying the rules is part of what I thought was part of organized sports. Dieting [SERIOUS dieting] to fit into a lower weight class.... postponing tests to retain a lower belt rating.... carrying 2 putters but still only 14 clubs. All legal acts to the letter of the rules! But also all... may also be cheating if you consider the spirit of the rules.

I agree with most of what your posting. I am not justifying or condoning any actions by any sportsmen (or women). But for gods sake... where and when did cyclist become keeper of moral compasses. I know cycling is a sport! But it is also part entertainment... and few really care if the people that provide us with entertainment indulge in performance enhancements.

i have a set of clubs from the mid 80's. square grooves. subsequently, the usga (and the r & a) banned the use of square grooves. great clubs. love them like you wouldn't believe. so, if i were to enter a usga event and win and no one but me is the wiser that i have used illegal clubs, then i have won? cheated legally? or just cheated and didn't get caught?

so, the uci, wada and all other cycling organisations deem doping to be illegal. i dope but don't get popped. i'm cheating legally? or am i just cheating? you, i believe, once chastised me for not having my head slapped enough by nuns. how is your position defensible when concerning sport, let alone defensible morally?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I don't know any non-cyclist that can name even one cyclist other than Lance. But you are right... the sport will certainly out live any [and every] cyclist. Lance gave the sport a golden era... and of course there might be other such popular era's in the sport. Or maybe... there will be fewer and fewer velodromes... fewer profitable races... and fewer cyclist.

But... you seem to have a working crystal ball... whereas I have never been able to accurately predict the future.

Just going on imperical evidence and faith. Pretty sure the Sun will rise tomorrow also. I am willing to take all bets. The TDF almost died a couple of time but it is bigger than ever and you can't base judgement on what Americans think. Try to step back and embrace how others see the sport it is much bigger in Europe. I have no ill will toward Lance and never have stated I wanted him to lose his titles I enjoyed every race I watched him in. I will however not defend him or any other than I think is guilty of something and some I consider friends.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by slovakguy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

1. I have a set of clubs... square grooves. subsequently, the usga (and the r & a) banned the use of square grooves. ....... so, if i were to enter a usga event and win and no one but me is the wiser that i have used illegal clubs, then i have won? cheated legally?

2. .... you, i believe, once chastised me for not having my head slapped enough by nuns.

1. If you played at a USGA event with the clubs... that would be cheating.. and wrong. If you played another golfer for a friendly bet... that would be legal cheating... IMHO.

2. I know nothing about nuns!!!! You have me mixed up with someone else. I didn't even know nun's slapped people.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by jhuskey [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

..... you can't base judgement on what Americans think. Try to step back and embrace how others see the sport it is much bigger in Europe.

You're absolutely right! Cycling in America in the 50's... almost didn't exist. Although cycling was huge in America in the late 1800's and early 1900's. It has been great to see a new golden era in cycling in recent years... I hope it continues.

I think Lance helped increase American interest in cycling. I read somewhere that someone was giving former President George Bush some credit for increasing interest in mountain biking. I think the Bush example may be a stretch... but what do I know. Maybe George Bush increased mountain cycling interest in Europe! I haven't been to Europe in decades so I guess their interests in sport may not effect me all that much.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

1. If you played at a USGA event with the clubs... that would be cheating.. and wrong. If you played another golfer for a friendly bet... that would be legal cheating... IMHO.

2. I know nothing about nuns!!!! You have me mixed up with someone else. I didn't even know nun's slapped people.

1. fail to see the difference. aren't i cheating the other golfer, which is to say, gaining an unfair advantage? sort of like recording a false score?

2. my most sincere apology for that. i am sorry to have mistaken you. the fault is entirely mine.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by slovakguy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

1. fail to see the difference. aren't i cheating the other golfer, which is to say, gaining an unfair advantage? sort of like recording a false score?

Hey... I am no body's moral or spiritual councelor (and I don't think you find many of those on sports teams ether). I admit, it might be a big mistake to calibrate your moral compass based on my actions. But in my book.... in a friendly game a golf, for a few bucks, with your own old clubs... they would most certainly be a legal cheat. An advantage... certainly. But you didn't buy those clubs to cheat anyone... so unfair [IMHO] would not apply.

You play me for money... you play what you see. If we're including handicaps.... then we have to discuss matters of trust. In which case I would report an honest handicap and the square grooves [if I was using them].

I know some golfers do record scores incorrectly. I don't approve of that! But it does happen too often to assume that everyone is against the practice. If your playing for money... track every-ones scores.

I know... rules are rules and all rules should be followed. But in real-life... I accept that people always fall short of perfect behavior. I am SURE that every cyclist has failed to be the proper sportman in every action. That everyone has done things they would NOT be proud for his mother to read about in the local newspaper.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Hey... I am no body's moral or spiritual councelor (and I don't think you find many of those on sports teams ether). I admit, it might be a big mistake to calibrate your moral compass based on my actions. But in my book.... in a friendly game a golf, for a few bucks, with your own old clubs... they would most certainly be a legal cheat. An advantage... certainly. But you didn't buy those clubs to cheat anyone... so unfair [IMHO] would not apply.

You play me for money... you play what you see. If we're including handicaps.... then we have to discuss matters of trust. In which case I would report an honest handicap and the square grooves [if I was using them].

I know some golfers do record scores incorrectly. I don't approve of that! But it does happen too often to assume that everyone is against the practice. If your playing for money... track every-ones scores.

I know... rules are rules and all rules should be followed. But in real-life... I accept that people always fall short of perfect behavior. I am SURE that every cyclist has failed to be the proper sportman in every action. That everyone has done things they would NOT be proud for his mother to read about in the local newspaper.

i'm not looking for you to act as one. but you do hit the nail on the head when you write that, were we playing for money, it is my responsibility to track everyone's scores. keeps folks from succeeding when they cheat. keeps folks from getting prize (my stake) money unfairly.

i agree with your description of human nature. and it may be that some feel that they need to cheat to gain whatever edge. but, when they are called out for cheating habitually, they either get removed from competition or, worse, find very fewer people willing to compete against them for even a $5 nassau.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I think Lance helped increase American interest in cycling.

Lance, the US Postal Service, Discovery Channel, Motorola, AMD, Subaru, Trek, Chris Carmichael, Anhueser-Busch, ASO, and the UCI all helped increase American interest in cycling. It was a group effort motivated by individual interests. Interests that conceivably didn't care whether their franchise was clean or not, as long as it appeared to be playing by the rules and there was no scandal.