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Theoretical q about max bike speed

Started by RomeoCygan · · Last activity · 7 posts · 1,330 views

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Cycling Training
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26 September 2012
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8 October 2012
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RomeoCygan
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  1. Hi forum! I registered just to ask this question me and my friend have been debating hard.

    What are the most important factors in reaching (not keeping!!) max. speed of a bicycle in theoretical case where rolling resistance, wind resistance, bearings resistance, tyre and transmission factors and all other outside factors (air density etc.) where unimportant?

    If we have two bike of identical specs, but two drivers with different weight, power, etc...
    Is there any significant difference in maximum attainable speed in terms of leg-power?

    Logically, the bicycle will go as fast as I turn its pedals at the biggest gear ratio (eg. 42:11 on my bike) ie. at the "lowest gear"...

    ...but what biomechanical factor is most important for ability to turn bike's pedals at 100+ cadence at the most difficult transmission?

    - is it leg muscles power
    - is it leg muscles strenght?
    - is it leg muscles fast twitch to slow twich ratio?
    - something else?

    Please help.

    I was googling a lot about this topic in last 24 hrs, but didn't help myself a lot.
    Just learned a lot about good power to wieght ratio, how much power can Lance produce over 30 minues etc.
    Nothing that answers my specific q.

    Thank you!

  2. Well you can't really remove all the loss terms like air resistance, rolling resistance, inertial effects, etc. If you did remove all those loss terms (like riding the bike in a vacuum with no rolling resistance, etc.) then any power applied to the drive train would eventually take you to an infinite speed or light speed or whatever non-reachable theoretical limit you want to impose.

    Basically how fast you get the bike to go depends on the power applied by the cyclist and the power losses imposed by: aerodynamics, rolling resistance, liner losses (e.g. bearings, drive train), inertial effects (accelerating the bike plus rider mass), gravitational effects (conversion of kinetic energy to potential energy and vice versa due to elevation changes of the entire bike plus rider mass). These are the primary things that determine bike speed for a given power. To a lesser extent in normal situations gearing comes into play. riders can only coordinate their muscles so well so if you're dramatically under geared for the conditions you'll 'spin out' before running out of raw power. IOW, try to ride fast down a steep straight hill in your lowest hill climbing gear and you'll likely spin out before running out of raw power from your legs as you just can't coordinate your muscles to spin the pedals fast enough.

    But in terms of generating or sustaining power on a flat road in appropriate gearing the major things are:

    - Fitness in terms of ability to convert fuels and oxygen to power. This does involve muscle fiber types but to a larger extent it involves cardiovascular fitness, muscle mitochondrial density, muscle capillary density, O2 carrying capacity of the blood and other metabolic fitness adaptations.

    - For very short intense efforts pure muscle strength can come into play such as standing starts in a large gear or in some cases sprinting, especially sprinting in a large gear from a slow starting speed. But for events over about a minute in duration pure muscle strength is almost irrelevant for cyclists. It takes roughly 50 pounds average force per pedal stroke at 90 rpm to sustain world class cycling power for a rider that weighs perhaps 150 or more pounds. IOW, even top professional cycling power levels only demand pedal forces that are a fraction of the rider's weight that they can easily move while climbing stairs or hiking uphill or other routine tasks. Basically for endurance events, even relatively short endurance events, pure muscle strength is not a limiter for healthy riders. Sure if you lack the leg strength to walk up a flight of stairs then that could be an issue but for healthy riders their leg strength is not a limiter outside of some very short duration and high intensity situations like very short track cycling events.

    So speed can be limited by a lot of things but on flat terrain in most cases it's limited by aerodynamic losses and the rider's ability to generate and sustain power. Those are the two biggest items for road cyclists looking to go faster. And if the duration of interest is more than a minute or so the power generation side is dominated by sustained metabolic processes and things like VO2 max and power at LT not pure leg strength.

    FWIW, John Howard broke 152 mph on his specially designed bike by drafting a vehicle out on the Bonneville Salt Flats. Notice the extra high jackshaft gearing he used to avoid spinning out and how close he stayed to his lead vehicle to stay out of the wind and reduce aero drag. http://www.canosoarus.com/08LSRbicycle/LSR%20Bike01.htm

    -Dave

  3. RomeoCygan said:

    ...but what biomechanical factor is most important for ability to turn bike's pedals at 100+ cadence at the most difficult transmission? - is it leg muscles power - is it leg muscles strenght? - is it leg muscles fast twitch to slow twich ratio? - something else? Please help.

    you train those goals separately, 1) with a cadence sensor you train to be good at spinning 100+ RPM at any gear ratio 2) through years of training you get to push a 53x12 3) eventually (in theory) you push that gear at 100+ RPM p.s. optimal seatpost setup is very important for cyclist who like high cadences Jan Ullrich was confronted at one time or another to adopt higher cadences (in L.Armstrong pedalling fashion) by team management but he decided that it was simply not his riding style

  4. Work (more or less power) output for the length of your event is about all that matters.

  5. An old Guy said:

    Work (more or less power) output for the length of your event is about all that matters.

    Nope. Not at all. Work is the average power output for the length of the event times, uhm, the time: P(avg)*t=W . See how the P-thing and the W-thing aren't equal? See how they have different units and all?

  6. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

    Nope. Not at all. Work is the average power output for the length of the event times, uhm, the time: P(avg)*t=W . See how the P-thing and the W-thing aren't equal? See how they have different units and all?


    You paint with such a limited brush.

    In one direction: Work is the integral of Power over time. In the other direction: Power is one of the derivatives of Work.

    In theory one could phrase the OP's question as an optimization problem. One could solve the problem using a virtual Work method or a variational method based on Power. The methods are have different philosophical roots but lead to the same results.

    Power and work are equivalent for the current question.

    ---

    Do you have a degree? I only ask as I have transformed 3SAT (that discrete problem that comes up in P=NP?) in to a function from [0,1) over the reals into the set {0,1}. Now I just need quick way to determine membership in what essentially a fractal relationship. Perhaps you could help.

  7. No, power and work are not equivalent.

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